RG Successors win Dicehammer GT

[superwill]

Round 2: various shooting and a super smite finished off the LoS, His Terminators came down and killed the VV's and the Chain Captain and the Warp Talons failed a charge on a unit of Eliminators.

Hmm, interesting. I’m guessing he wasn’t running night lord warp talons? I have a mate who plays all the real full-on chaos stuff - disco lords, whack new termie combos, the FW dreads which make leviathans look soft, and of course night lord warp talons. If there’s a more broken unit in the game than them, I have no idea what it is. As a blood angels player I thought a 3d6 charge was amazing. Recently at a tourney I ran Raptors with Lias and Hungry for battle, just for +2 to charge and thought it was awesome. NL have the option for a 3d6+4” charge.... That’s an average of 14.5”, and meaning he will make a 9” charge 96% of the time (or much higher if he has a CP for a reroll). And you get no overwatch. And they’ve got LCs and a 5++ for 19ppm, which is well under costed even if they didn’t have all their extra rules and strat support.. And worst of all, for 1CP non-vehicles can’t fall back from them...

 

So they are basically guaranteed a charge, can’t be overwatched, and can tie up a full gunline. I watched my other mate get all 3 of his riptides charged by warp talons, and it was instantly GG. He had nothing to kill them in CC with, and of course he can’t shoot them or fall back from them...

 

I’m extremely confident that Chaos will be king for a while once people start hitting tournaments with them. That NL combo is one of about ten absolutely absurd options in the new dex which make all but 2-3 SM strats seem unplayable in comparison.

 

Honestly, I think centurions are the only thing which will keep Raven Guard competitive. I’ve played about 15-20 games with RG now at tournament level, and I’ve run them in a variety of different styles and compositions. The only unit which really carries every time I play is the cents. Which is a bit lame because they don’t exactly scream raven guard, but even so I’m just praying to the Emperor that they don’t get nerfed. There are a few other serviceable units, but nothing that would make us able to compete in top-tier without some cents. That’s my experience so far anyway ☺️

 

Edit: I do have to say though, I’m surprised to see so many people (including the Dicehammer list) running so many troops. I’ve experimented with a few options, but I think the meta in my area (around Sydney Aus) really doesn’t favour them. Here, top lists tend to be all about murdering things as hard and fast as possible, and paying the minimum in troop tax. I feel like we have most of the common lists that seem to be run overseas, apart from the SM lists with 400-600 points in troops. That’s a lot of points which really don’t offer much in offence, and defensively are decent but certainly not HARD to kill. Most of the time they can just be ignored for the first few rounds, and will be all that’s left after that and can get easily picked off. Even though I was a deepstrike army, I rubbed my hands together every time I saw infiltrators. There are plenty of ways to clear them before your big drop, and then your opponent just paid a tonne of points for a unit that contributed nothing. Not sure whether I’m missing something, but at the most recent tourney I was at I versed a couple of troop heavy primaris lists and they were just easy wins.

Edited December 16, 2019 by superwill

[Dracos]

Maybe your tournament rules favor a different style of meta than US ITC or Euro ETC matches? I've noticed you have very strong opinions on certain elements of the game that often are similar to a degree but slightly off than a large number of other members?

[superwill]

Could be. We also use ITC and as I said we see most of the lists that are stomping elsewhere, but not really any that have 500ish points in troops.

 

Sometimes it’s hard to determine on here whether it’s a difference in meta, or whether people are just playing in less cut-throat leagues. I feel like my biggest differences of opinion to most round here seem to be A) wasting points on impotent units with more “tactical flexibility”, and B) banking on going first. In fact, that’s one thing I did wonder about the list this thread is based on. To me, it looks like a kind of classic RG list which prays it goes first. Of course the aggressors / cents will destroy if you do, but going 4/2 says to me he probably went first 3 times and in the other games would’ve either been stuck with the aggressors in an average position. Did I read it right that he won going 4/2? How big a tourney is it?

 

I should say as well, I really don’t mean to come across too aggressive or unfriendly. I love RG, love all different kinds of people who play our great hobby, and totally appreciate that my thoughts and experiences are not the same as other people’s. I just like to stay at the cutting edge, and robust discussion is often very helpful (and I do often have my mind changed which I think is fantastic).

[Dracos]

Nah your good :) Having a strong opinion doesn't make it disrespectful. 6 rounds a major tournament unless I'm mistaken. I wouldn't dish the 4-2 record when one of those loses was to Richard Siegel though lol. The man's been on a tear this year.

 

What I would do would is agree with your thoughts on the thick boyz and question starting the Aggressors on the board each and every game. Personally I plan on using the CP generated from my "wasted" ;) Troop choices to put a couple units of those bad boys in Reserve if I'm going second. Seriously always suggest folks plan for going second and hope for going first.

[MajorNese]

NL have the option for a 3d6+4” charge.... That’s an average of 14.5”, and meaning he will make a 9” charge 96% of the time (or much higher if he has a CP for a reroll). And you get no overwatch. And they’ve got LCs and a 5++ for 19ppm, which is well under costed even if they didn’t have all their extra rules and strat support.. And worst of all, for 1CP non-vehicles can’t fall back from them...

 

So they are basically guaranteed a charge, can’t be overwatched, and can tie up a full gunline.

Do they have rules to go around the "if you're within 12", you can declare a charge" restriction? Otherwise Infiltrators could throw a wrench in it at the front line, but that only works when there are no DS gaps in the backfield.

[ShinyRhino]

Around here, people are taking the hundreds of points worth of Troops to fill a double battalion purely for the command points, which they then use to deck out HQ units with relics, extra warlords traits, etc.

 

We play ITC/ETC. The Defenders of Humanity rule never comes into play, because if someone gets close enough to an objective, your holding units are either dead or about to be. That's a big trend I've noticed lately: objectives don't get contested, they get scoured clean.

[jpwyrm]

Played the game last night and came out on top with a vast point lead since the game ended 18-7. Two things really worked in my favour :

 

- we played Eternal War Vital Intelligence and rolled 6 (all objectives are worth 2 VPs) on round 1.

- I won the roll of to choose the deployment and wenth with table quarter. This meant I was going second and I was fine with that. With the Raven Guards felxibility, I was able to draw a lot of his force backward (I MoA the Chaplain and Aggressors behind a big building beside his DZ alongside a unit of Eliminators and the warsuit). The Centurions and full Intercessor squad were waiting in the shadows. I sacrificed two units to score three objectives and destroyed his scoring units giving me a solid lead in the game.

 

My experience with this list tends to confirm OPs assessment of most units performance:

 

- Thunderfire cannon and Eliminators were great pulled their weight when needed. The TFC killed the sole scoring unit in the first turn whereas one of the Eliminator unit with two models left scored Slay the Warlord in turn 3.

 

- Smash and Slash captains were great and the no overwatch warlord trait is invaluable, especially running into a unit of Mortifactors with Heavy Bolters (that's 24 shots in overwatch, not a pleasant perspective)

 

- Incursors did well. The mines are a fun gimmick but nothing more.

 

- Intercessors are solid. Stalkers hold the line and plink away when they can. The big unit with autoboltrifles were very good though, taking control of one flank by themselves. I did not get to assault with them so this will have to be tested another time.

 

- Aggressors and Centurions were vital in the list. Aggressors deployed so close to his line forced my opponent to overreach in a gambit to destroy them. It also stopped him from advancing forward and this cost him the scoring game. Centurions dropped right behind the second big units of Mortifactors, wrecking 2 and half with shooting. They made a lucky 11" charge and wiped the unit, allowing me to score another extra VP since they were guarding the 2 VP objective for turn 2.

 

- Phobos Captain with Ex Tenebris was good. I was force to stick him in combat though and his output drastically diminishes when fighting with his knife instead of his gun. I'll try to avoid combat with him in my next games if I can.

 

- Chaplain... So disappointing! I tried chaplains in 2 or 3 games now and I have yet to succeed a Litany roll. This one is the sole unit I'm considering ditching for something else, yet I'm unsure what...

 

- Invictor Warsuit did almost nothing except drawing fire. Since I'm mostly taking it for this purpose that's good, but I think I will go back to the Incendium cannon since once it starts degrading, all other guns don't hit that much on the move. Of course it does not help when your opponent can choose the result of random dmg thanks to his Miracle Points and he happens to have a 6 waiting for it's moment to shine...

[sultansean]

 

Round 2: various shooting and a super smite finished off the LoS, His Terminators came down and killed the VV's and the Chain Captain and the Warp Talons failed a charge on a unit of Eliminators.

NL have the option for a 3d6+4” charge.... That’s an average of 14.5”, and meaning he will make a 9” charge 96% of the time (or much higher if he has a CP for a reroll). And you get no overwatch. And they’ve got LCs and a 5++ for 19ppm, which is well under costed even 

They were Nightlords but he was out of CP, so he did have the bonus to charge but rolled low. I agree that they are crazy good, and were one of the reasons I added infiltrators to the list. 

 

Infiltrators hiding in a ruin and throwing smoke grenades (if you have first turn) are pretty survivable, then can fan out turn 2 to zone out deepstrikes. Obviously less survivable if you are playing against three thunder fire cannons....

 

I think Assault Cents are obviously the best choice, and think Raven Guard  Successor  Assault Cents are my top pick to win LVO this year. But I don't like the models, they are expensive, and they are likely going to get nerfed at some point. I could see the spring FAQ having long ranged marksman not work on auto hitting weapons.

 

In regards to fielding intercessors I think they are efficient when compared to anything besides Ass Cents. 1x 10 man unit in deep strike is a nice utility tool for shooting and combat.

 

Superwill how much terrain do you have in your area? I use troops either hiding until the big stuff is dead then coming out to finish off things or as screen.   

Edited December 17, 2019 by sultansean

[MajorNese]

Infiltrators hiding in a ruin and throwing smoke grenades (if you have first turn) are pretty survivable, then can fan out turn 2 to zone out deepstrikes. Obviously less survivable if you are playing against three thunder fire cannons....

See But Remain Unseen is your friend, since the Infiltrators don't fire anyway. And depending on range, the ruin+RG means it's -3. Or, in other words, TFCs hitting on 5+.

[superwill]

Nah your good :) Having a strong opinion doesn't make it disrespectful. 6 rounds a major tournament unless I'm mistaken. I wouldn't dish the 4-2 record when one of those loses was to Richard Siegel though lol. The man's been on a tear this year.

 

What I would do would is agree with your thoughts on the thick boyz and question starting the Aggressors on the board each and every game. Personally I plan on using the CP generated from my "wasted" ;) Troop choices to put a couple units of those bad boys in Reserve if I'm going second. Seriously always suggest folks plan for going second and hope for going first.

Not dissing at all! Actually impressed - especially using a list which he himself admitted he even he thought was not-ideal / optimised, means he must be a hell of a pilot! I’m only surprised that at a major tournament there wasn’t a single person who went at least 5-1. And yeah very aware of the caliber of Siegel his opponent.

 

I think I’m gonna give some more troops a try in my games and try sticking with it. 110 points just seems so much for a unit that dies relatively easily (unless you go first). I dunno - my previous tournament army which I had a tonne of success with was a 4CP Custodes army so I am probably a little biased from that haha. Glad to be playing RG though! I liked Custodes, but RG is a real labour of love. Although, RG centurions I’m not quite so emotionally fond of haha

Edited December 21, 2019 by superwill