Zephyrim vs Geminae

[taikishi]

 

 

I'll give you the lack of Deep Striking, it's odd that they nor Celestine can do it (wouldn't that be an appropriate miraculous intervention?).

 

Your attack comparison is kinda flawed, considering most people don't play Bloody Rose. You can't generalize based on one Order.

 

If Celestine doesn't warrant the enemy attention to require bodyguards, that just leaves them free to do stuff. I can see them being midfielders with Celestine where they can go wherever quickly, and quite possibly benefitting from some reroll auras while at it. You may consider them fragile, but when near Celestine they're a combined 4W 3/6A 3+/4++ AP -3 high mobility unit that can to a point regen without a separate medic (but can also benefit from one, just that Hospitallers have trouble keeping up). I say that's not bad for 40 points, never mind 32 if what's been said about CA19 turns out staying true.

 

Sure, they're a bit weak against Snipers, but for example if some Eliminators are wasting their bullets on Geminae instead of your other characters, they're already worth it. If on the other hand all your other characters are already dead, you're in trouble with or without Geminae. The better Snipers are a threat to ANY of our (or most codices') characters.

 

Also I'm surprised you say there are many great options, considering whatever unit option is being discussed at any given time, you're there to put it down. Especially for non-Bloody Rose lists the Geminae are certainly a better value than Zephyrim especially if 16 points, so belittling them saying they're not worth it even if free is just pointlessly smearing grox droppings over the conversation.

Neutral analysis, single Zephyrim vs a single Geminae over 10,000 simulations. No order convictions, just base rules. Also assuming Geminae are 20ppm until we see something official from GW on CA2019 vs C:AS

 

Same Move, WS, BS, S, T, and armor save

 

Geminae:

6++, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine (+160 pts, restricted to being within 6" of Celestine)

+1W

+1A

A bodyguard rule of debatable benefit (+160 pts, restricted to being within 3" of Celestine)

 

Zephyrim:

-3PPM (+1PPM if CA2019 is accurate)

5++ without the presence of any other unit, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine or a warlord with the Indomitable Belief warlord tait

May re-roll failed to-wound rolls in melee

Can deep strike

Superior may be given the ability to let friendly <Order> units (so not Celestine or Geminae) within 6" re-roll charge rolls for +5 points

 

 

In melee combat vs T4, 3+

 

Geminae Superiae, no Sacred Rites or Miracle dice

-54.46% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ

-36.7% chance of inflicting an unsaved wound

-8.24% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds

-0.6% chance of dealing three unsaved wounds

 

Zephyrim (not Zephyrim Superior), no Order, Miracle dice, or Sacred Rites

-48.36% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ

-42.47% chance of dealing an unsaved wound

-9.17% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds

 

-------------------

 

Both Geminae vs a Zephyrim and Zephyrim Superior

 

2 Geminae Superia

-29.49% chance of dealing 0 damage

-39.96% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound

-23.10% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds

-6.73% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds

-1.16% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds

-0.13% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds

-0.00 chance of dealing 6 unsaved wounds

 

 

Zephyrim + Zephyrim Superior

-15.17% chance of dealing 0 wounds

-35.52% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound

-31.27% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds

-14.26% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds

-02.96% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds

-00.28% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds

Incapable of dealing 6 due to not enough attacks (without Rites, conviction, etc)

 

Two Zephyrim look superior to taking either or both Geminae. Sure, you might be able to bring one back if they stay within 3" of Celestine and they can protect her on a 2+, but Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are, shoehorning them to Celestine for their 4++ and bringing back the other problems Geminae have:

 

* their inability to advance at the same pace as Celestine (and visa versa), forcing one or the other to move slower than you'd like to keep within 3/6" for various other rules

* their inability to charge with Celestine, meaning they might charge something they need her support with OR Celestine charging something she needs their support with as chaff

* the fact that if one uses Miracle dice in a phase, the other can't use them in the same phase (assuming we can actually use more than one die)

 

 

[ThePenitentOne]

So shoehorning them to Celestine is a non issue, since everyone who hates them as is wants them to be part of her unit like they used to be, which would make them more shoehorned than they currently are.

 

I never send anything alone, so if Celestine is anywhere (I only use her when it is appropriate to the story my game is telling), she'll have backup- usually geminae + seraphim or zephyrim.

 

In this context, both Celestine and the Geminae have character status, so only snipers can hit them. Then I can MD on saves or shield of faith.

[taikishi]

People want them to be part of her unit because it removes most of the problems with the models for being her "bodyguards".

 

* You can just assign wounds to them

* Healing tears can bring one back after both are dead (it can't even do that now)

* They charge together

* They advance together

* They fight together

* They perform AoF together

* They had character status before, both in 7E and in the Index

 

The "benefits" of them being a separate unit (leadership because with penalties it's possible to make the unit take a test, independence) don't exist when they're functionally worse than Zeraphim before you even consider Sacred Rites and Order Convictions, the latter of which Geminae don't have access to.

Edited December 11, 2019 by taikishi

[tvih]

"Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are" - how exactly does this figure? Model for model, point for point it surely doesn't considering the additional wound of Geminae and equal saves discounting Celestine... and of course can't be shot as easily. The only advantage Zephyrim technically have is being able to have more models, but even a five-model squad only has +1W compared to two Geminae, and costs more.

 

And while they need to be within close range of Celestine, the same is true for any and all buffs and units. Zephyrim can just as well outpace or be left behind from buffs you'd want them to have, it's not like Geminae are alone in a void with this issue.

 

No one's saying they couldn't be better mechanics-wise, but if Geminae are useless, that makes Zephyrim pretty bad too.

[Lemondish]

People want them to be part of her unit because it removes most of the problems with the models for being her "bodyguards".

 

* You can just assign wounds to them

* Healing tears can bring one back after both are dead (it can't even do that now)

* They charge together

* They advance together

* They fight together

* They perform AoF together

* They had character status before, both in 7E and in the Index

 

The "benefits" of them being a separate unit (leadership because with penalties it's possible to make the unit take a test, independence) don't exist when they're functionally worse than Zeraphim before you even consider Sacred Rites and Order Convictions, the latter of which Geminae don't have access to.

Very succinct and very informative list of the impact separating these units had on both Celestine and their own capability.

[taikishi]

"Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are" - how exactly does this figure? Model for model, point for point it surely doesn't considering the additional wound of Geminae and equal saves discounting Celestine... and of course can't be shot as easily. The only advantage Zephyrim technically have is being able to have more models, but even a five-model squad only has +1W compared to two Geminae, and costs more.

 

And while they need to be within close range of Celestine, the same is true for any and all buffs and units. Zephyrim can just as well outpace or be left behind from buffs you'd want them to have, it's not like Geminae are alone in a void with this issue.

 

No one's saying they couldn't be better mechanics-wise, but if Geminae are useless, that makes Zephyrim pretty bad too.

 

+1W and 6++ vs 5++. On their own implies they're functioning independently, as has been suggested as a tactic in other threads. No Celestine nearby.

 

And I never made a claim that Zephyrim were good. If you look at my previous comments on the matter in the BSB thread, I'm pretty down on them being 17pmm and S3. If they could take something other than power swords as a melee weapon (even just chainswords), they'd be a lot better than they are.

Edited December 11, 2019 by taikishi

[Lemondish]

 

"Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are" - how exactly does this figure? Model for model, point for point it surely doesn't considering the additional wound of Geminae and equal saves discounting Celestine... and of course can't be shot as easily. The only advantage Zephyrim technically have is being able to have more models, but even a five-model squad only has +1W compared to two Geminae, and costs more.

 

And while they need to be within close range of Celestine, the same is true for any and all buffs and units. Zephyrim can just as well outpace or be left behind from buffs you'd want them to have, it's not like Geminae are alone in a void with this issue.

 

No one's saying they couldn't be better mechanics-wise, but if Geminae are useless, that makes Zephyrim pretty bad too.

 

+1W and 6++ vs 5++. On their own implies they're functioning independently, as has been suggested as a tactic in other threads. No Celestine nearby.

 

And I never made a claim that Zephyrim were good. If you look at my previous comments on the matter in the BSB thread, I'm pretty down on them being 17pmm and S3. If they could take something other than power swords as a melee weapon (even just chainswords), they'd be a lot better than they are.

 

 

I suppose that would depend on the target, no? Chainswords aren't as useful against something like MEQ, I would think, and the S3 reroll wounds ends up being more reliable than S4 without. 

 

I think I'll enjoy continuing with them a shot as Bloody Rose. They have been pretty surprisingly effective combined with seraphim clearing a drop zone with the descent strat. 

[Purifying Tempest]

Apparently, Celestine lost her custody battle over the wonder twins there.

 

In all seriousness... now that the Geminae are their own unit, there's so many problems with their primary function: Celestine's bodyguards.  She is going to do so much of her damage at melee range, but can easily lose track of her Geminae if either unit advances or charges or piles in or consolidates... etc.  On their own, they're just worse Zephyrim.

 

I think it is a situation where they were INCREDIBLY powerful as a unit (especially when Celestine could pop up ANYWHERE), and put a huge sour taste in everyone's mouths.  GW fixed it by doing... this.  Probably a nerf too far the other way, now.  But... whatever... Geminae are dead to me, now! :)

[tvih]

 

+1W and 6++ vs 5++. On their own implies they're functioning independently, as has been suggested as a tactic in other threads. No Celestine nearby.

 

And I never made a claim that Zephyrim were good. If you look at my previous comments on the matter in the BSB thread, I'm pretty down on them being 17pmm and S3. If they could take something other than power swords as a melee weapon (even just chainswords), they'd be a lot better than they are.

 

Ah, I actually forgot about Angelic Visage. Still, especially in CC - where both of these units would likely be getting hit - I'd say the second wound will come in handy more often than the improved invulnerability. It would however depend on the opposing army. As would whether chainsword or power sword would be better. Personally I certainly prefer the latter on average. If S3 AP -3 is underwhelming, S3 AP0 is doubly so. I do wish the cost was more like 15ppm or so, though.

 

At the end of the day chances are if you take Geminae, you also take Celestine (or rather, you take Geminae because you took Celestine) - and also... 40 points is only 2% of a 2000pt list, so it's not like taking them will make or break the list. The potential benefits when running Celestine easily outweigh the negatives. If you don't want to use Celestine to begin with, then that's another matter entirely.

[Lemondish]

Apparently, Celestine lost her custody battle over the wonder twins there.

 

In all seriousness... now that the Geminae are their own unit, there's so many problems with their primary function: Celestine's bodyguards. She is going to do so much of her damage at melee range, but can easily lose track of her Geminae if either unit advances or charges or piles in or consolidates... etc. On their own, they're just worse Zephyrim.

 

I think it is a situation where they were INCREDIBLY powerful as a unit (especially when Celestine could pop up ANYWHERE), and put a huge sour taste in everyone's mouths. GW fixed it by doing... this. Probably a nerf too far the other way, now. But... whatever... Geminae are dead to me, now! :)

They were powerful when Acts of Faith were basically just double activation nonsense. Now? Not nearly as powerful. They could return to a single unit and be acceptable.

 

I mean, 160 points for Celestine herself is about three times too high.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Lemondish

[EmperorGTank]

Celestine should really be either 135 the way she currently is, or her current price with a way to do a free AoF or give a unit near her the ability to do that. Honestly, I would say the Geminae at 16 ppm would be far more acceptable than they are now if Celestine could at least give THEM a free use of a MD if she's within 6" of them. At least then you could try to guarantee they both make a charge by being able to use an AoF for both in the same phase.

[Slasher956]

My feeling on Geminae/Celestine is that Celestine's healing tears rule should be updated to allow you to return 1 Geminae per turn back up to the number in your army list.

Geminae bodyguard rule should be updated (and re-named to Guardians of the Saint*) to allow them to use the Saints Charge & advance rolls as their own in addition to intercepting any hit on a 2+ before damage.

 

On the Zerhyrim V Geminae, individually (units) I feel that Zehyrim are better for the job we want them to do because of the save and the interactions with our other rules.... looking forward to putting them on the table (when I get a codex :( )

 

 

*yes its future proofing for allowing them to bodyguard generic saints :p.... we can hope, we are the faithful :)

[taikishi]

 

 

+1W and 6++ vs 5++. On their own implies they're functioning independently, as has been suggested as a tactic in other threads. No Celestine nearby.

 

And I never made a claim that Zephyrim were good. If you look at my previous comments on the matter in the BSB thread, I'm pretty down on them being 17pmm and S3. If they could take something other than power swords as a melee weapon (even just chainswords), they'd be a lot better than they are.

 

Ah, I actually forgot about Angelic Visage. Still, especially in CC - where both of these units would likely be getting hit - I'd say the second wound will come in handy more often than the improved invulnerability. It would however depend on the opposing army. As would whether chainsword or power sword would be better. Personally I certainly prefer the latter on average. If S3 AP -3 is underwhelming, S3 AP0 is doubly so. I do wish the cost was more like 15ppm or so, though.

 

At the end of the day chances are if you take Geminae, you also take Celestine (or rather, you take Geminae because you took Celestine) - and also... 40 points is only 2% of a 2000pt list, so it's not like taking them will make or break the list. The potential benefits when running Celestine easily outweigh the negatives. If you don't want to use Celestine to begin with, then that's another matter entirely.

 

 

Opportunity cost. That 40 points could be going to pretty much anything else, even a bare bones Battle Sister squad. At 32 points, if CA2019 is accurate, the points could be going toward a different character that buffs multiple units or just beefing up a unit or three in terms of model count/wargear.

 

Quite honestly? Given their current state I'm not even certain I'd take Geminae if they were free. I'd think about it for a moment, but then realize it's more ways for my opponent to get VP in a competitive situation/a squad that really isn't going to be doing anything but dying if they're successful in protecting Celestine and I want my models to actually feel useful beyond chaff.

 

@Slasher Even if we get generic saints in PA or another supplement, I highly doubt the Wonder Twins are going to become bodyguards for anyone but Celestine. GW doesn't think that way and seems horrible at future-proofing their releases else Rule of 3 wouldn't be a thing and instead problematic units would have some rule on their datasheet restricting quantities.

 

@Lemondish Agreed. She's the price of a Smash Captain and does less. I tried to point this out to someone last year and they defended the price because "acts of faith are so OP"... and we were talking about the BetaDex...

 

Oh, and before anyone brings up distraction-fexes when talking about the Geminae (because my gut says someone will), there's a difference:

 

Distraction Carnifexes are still a threat on their own, but meant to pull you away from the real threat. The Wonder Twins were really only a threat while they benefited from being in the same unit as Celestine.

Edited December 16, 2019 by taikishi

[Slasher956]

Oh I don’t expect gw to change a thing...hence me talking about hope! :p

[Montford]

I'm using my Geminae as Zephyrim :)