Legends - less than what it could have been?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Wouldn't it be nice if GW found the space to include the rules for these units in their codexes instead of a new publication?

There is zero need for the Legends concept; if they have no future intentions to remake the minis there is no financial loss from that part, and plenty of goodwill for keeping the options valid for all types of play.

The reasoning of we'll put them here instead of there is weak.

[Bryan Blaire]

They want the Codexes to be for things that people can buy, and for units they don't intend to even attempt to pretend at balancing because they aren't made any more or require more extensive kit-bashing/conversions (or living in a select location).

 

You only have to look at Page 4 of November's White Dwarf to see how there's been a bit of a shift in the kit-bash/conversion concept - there's a good Chaos Sorcerer someone has made - and the only part that was cut and replaced is the head of a staff, everything else is simply bits from other kits added to a Chaos Marine body. The author of the letter and GW call it a conversion, but to me (and I think others) this is only a kit-bash, there's no real conversion actually done here. Simply snipping off a part of single bit and replacing it isn't a conversion, and it's an slightly improved kit-bash, IMO, and it's a little discouraging to see GW seem to take the line that they aren't really going to be supporting actual conversion to make models with different rules.

 

GW doesn't want to make a bunch of rules for things they don't sell outright - they've learned that others can basically take the ideas they've created and make models for them - potentially blocking them from doing so, and we can all see the writing on the wall that they also don't want to make kits with extensive bits combinations.

 

So stuff that used to only be made by conversions or that they no longer make becomes their free Legends doc.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I realize what they want, but the pragmatic view is that the datasheet could fit in the Dex just as well as in a separated publication.

And I also addressed the creation of kits issues, they no longer make them, there is no loss. And any protection is still gained wherever the datasheet lays.

If a conversion needs rules then making folks buy a dex is a no brainer too.

Having rules for all types of play encourages sales of kits for conversions, less options to play equals less chances of that sale.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Closet Skeleton]

See, there's one of the SERIOUS problems with this legends rubbish, (and rubbish it is mind you).

 

"it was about giving permanent rules to models that had rules at the beginning of 8th that they no longer produce".

 

They still produced these models at the beginning of 8th, they simply mentioned that models they didn't make rules for/rules they didn't make models for would be finding their way into the "Legends" book

 

Most of the stuff in Legends is stuff that NEVER had an official model. Its stuff you used to have to kitbash. Of the weapon options most of them are forgeworld dreadnought stuff that were never made in plastic.

 

The real problem is the datasheet system that leads to pointless bloat for options that were only ever wargear in previous editions. Of course they could easily just fit extra statlines onto the datasheet but for some reason they went with this stupid duplication nonsense instead.

 

Everything in Legends was already removed from the codex two years ago.

 

The only thing in Legends that's still on sale are the Space Marine Command tanks (that basically you can't buy) and honour guard (which already got ruined in the index and are still playable as Ultramarines only). The only things that were on sale when 8th started are the characters who got Primaris replacements.

 

 

So when the rest of my army hits Legends I'm out. Its been fun ladies and gentlemen but it's too greedy, too dirty, and too offensive in my opinion to be told my tabletop game (essentially a board game) is phasing out 20 years (my time in the hobby not to mention people who've been at this longer than me) worth of collecting/building and painting plastic soldiers and that i have to start over. No thank you.

Its very rare for a game to still be supported after 20 years. Most games have to be kept alive by fans.

 

If you want to play with old models no company is stopping you.

[Plasmablasts]

I suspect that, when in doubt, GW will have erred on the side of over-costing Legends units for matched play. They will not want those units suddenly becoming the new darlings of the competitive scene, sending people off to the third-party makers. By moving out-of-production and never-in-production units to Legends they avoid having to keep tweaking the balance of those units. So, they’re not squatting those units - they remain wholly legal, if not universally permissible depending on the rules of individual tournaments, but they might not continue to be “viable” from a competitive perspective. I think this is their attempt to try to cater both for the hobbyist and the competitive sides: the Legends units remain available to those with 20-year-old armies while the Codices are kept streamlined.

[Irbis]

Wouldn't it be nice if GW found the space to include the rules for these units in their codexes instead of a new publication?

 

And bloat the books with million options with only minute differences? Not to mention the fact that in most books, you add pages by folding large sheet that forms 16 pages in the resulting book, if you add one datasheet you add a lot of paper to the book that needs to be filled and paid for, increasing their cost. What is the point when the 1% who wants to use these units can simply download the free page?

 

Then there is the angle of fairness to a new players. Suppose you buy the codex, see bike options, want to buy them, but then learn in store they never had models save for that one tiny ugly metal model 25 years ago and if you want one of these, you need to buy 4 boxes and kitbash. You think like old player with huge bit box, new a new one who might well quit after hearing one HQ he wanted costs 100+ $ in parts.

 

There is zero need for the Legends concept; if they have no future intentions to remake the minis there is no financial loss from that part

 

Besides the fact that there are various knockoff producers who will then make these models and siphon off hobby money to themselves? Making it pretty obvious loss?

 

Then there is the question of image. GW prides themselves on the 'quality' of the miniatures. There are some third party makers who match it, making really beautiful stuff, and I don't think GW minds these (especially seeing they sell stuff that complements, not replaces GW kits), but a lot of these produces ugly gak that I have no idea how people can put on their models without shuddering. It would be one thing if they were cheap bits, but a lot of them is more expensive than GW (or even FW) upgrade bits - and I wouldn't fault GW for not wanting to give them customers, or downgrade their projected image with cheap junk bits ruining the look of models. Sometimes loss can be quite immaterial, too.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Brother Tyler

[Ioldanach]

While there were some surprises, this is mostly what I expected - the codices will include rules for models that are still supported and the Legends rules will cover those that are obsolete. A lot of the old models can already be covered under official rules, so they don't necessarily need the Legends treatment. There are also some older models whose concepts have been replaced so that they are no longer valid, so they don't need the Legends treatment either (e.g., Harlequins with power fists).

 

It would be nice to see GW expand the Legends rules to include appropriate models from older editions, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that. I'd also like to see Forge World create their own Legends files for models that they no longer produce. The sub-optimal solution here (for both) is that some engaged players might create homegrown "Legends" datasheets for those models that GW/FW ignore.

 

I definitely prefer a free downloadable file (set of files, actually) over these being included in any books, whether the codices or some other separate book (like the index books). Publishing them in any book only puts them more at risk for being dropped. As downloadable files, they're much easier to make available and support (up until the point where the rules are changed so that these are no longer usable). My only concern is with continued support, or the lack thereof, in future editions. It would be great if GW updates these (and adds to them as models move into obsolescence) for each addition, but I'm not sure if GW has the appetite for that. The sub-optimal solution here is for engaged players to update the Legends rules as editions change (if GW/FW don't do that themselves).

 

FWIW, I recommend that everyone download these files now and as often as they are updated. If GW pulls the plug on this, we'll at least have something to go on for homegrown efforts at sustaining the rules for obsolete models.

[Interrogator Stobz]

There's no future financial loss for something they weren't doing. It's

easy to understand?

 

No rules bloat; still the same amount of paper, just in different books, now you need another book of you want to use them. It's easy to understand?

 

But it's six of one half dozen of the other. My point is it doesn't need to happen at all, it has, my point is moot.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[chapter master 454]

 

There is zero need for the Legends concept; if they have no future intentions to remake the minis there is no financial loss from that part

 

Besides the fact that there are various knockoff producers who will then make these models and siphon off hobby money to themselves? Making it pretty obvious loss?

 

Then there is the question of image. GW prides themselves on the 'quality' of the miniatures. There are some third party makers who match it, making really beautiful stuff, and I don't think GW minds these (especially seeing they sell stuff that complements, not replaces GW kits), but a lot of these produces ugly gak that I have no idea how people can put on their models without shuddering. It would be one thing if they were cheap bits, but a lot of them is more expensive than GW (or even FW) upgrade bits - and I wouldn't fault GW for not wanting to give them customers, or downgrade their projected image with cheap junk bits ruining the look of models. Sometimes loss can be quite immaterial, too.

 

 

Piracy isn't proof of loss of purchase and can never be proven as such. There was and never will be a sure fire way to say that person would of bought a full priced real McCoy compared to the half price knock-off.

 

On top of that, how is there loss of sale for a model they never made? Considering making models requires kit bashing and conversion work it would sell more kits, not less. Not to mention players that don't want to convert models tend to not be the more competitive nor most invested in the game ether and thus aren't the target for this matter.

 

How does maintaining support for these units and their options hurt GW? The only pain they can take from this is constant e-mails and questions regarding them making models and kits for those options.

Suppose that would be too much chomped out of their beloved MONO-POSED CENTRE PIECE character kits. Oh no, options, how dreadful.

 

I even go out on a limb and say ELDAR get shafted the hardest. Oh you want to use the fluffy military leader choice of the Autarch? Master of all aspects? Oh he must have access to some array of weaponry befitting...oh he only gets a starglaive...

They literally say "Use Yriel model or suck a grots toe!" and it is literally the WORST loadout for the autarch.

 

I will even put forward the collective community disgust when the same list and load-outs keep appearing. "Another smash captain" "Another Triptide list" "Another Flyer list". Yet here some are, saying they want less options.

 

I will relent when GW start giving us kits with their options in the box proper. Instead they want to stagger options for kits so they can make money off of players with these stupid "chapter upgrade packs" where the main draw isn't the icons or special bits for those chapters but WHAT WEAPONS THEY HAVE. If they don't make rules for kits they don't make then Intercessors should still not have access to ANY melee options at all.

 

...I am not happy with this approach and while it is nice to have some units immortalised, it continues to reek of saying one things while doing another. They smile and speak silvered words while back handing us with these acts. At least make one match the other, might not be everyone's choice but at least then you know they are genuine or genuinely taking you for a ride!

[Bryan Blaire]

Stobz, sorry man, but I don't think you fully understand the business at hand.

 

They do not want to have datasheets in an item in active sales that they don't make a model for - and yes, they have indicated they DO view it as an issue, whether you do or not, that someone can walk into a store, buy a Codex, and then never find the model to match a datasheet they have - or that they have to buy and carve up at least two models without GW provided instructions. That's an issue as far as GW is concerned - it doesn't matter that you think it is okay, clearly they feel there is a business impact enough to make a different decision.

 

And Legends will not be a book - it's a free online PDF that costs you nothing.

 

So actually this is the better way - GW doesn't have issues, players aren't out any money, except the cost of printing the pages - if you even choose to do that any more.

 

And seriously, this board seems to be be less and less accepting of the fact that things change, even this hobby, and that seems to be inhibiting constructive discussion in some cases.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I do understand mate, have reasonable experience and education in the business world, I see why they are doing it, I just personally disagree with where they're going. So from my POV Legends is not needed. None of my points have been shown to be wrong.

 

Having to buy several kits to make the thing you want has been their way for ages, but now they are going mono I've pretty much stopped looking at the new 41k stuff. I find it boring, but that's another issue.

That's why they don't get my money. My endless expansion of my army has ended.

40k was about stability, stagnation and rot, 41k is about change and hope. I prefer 40k.

[Interrogator Stobz]

And what's that nonsense about the board? You're the board too bro

We merely have different views.

[Bryan Blaire]

None of my points have been shown to be wrong.

Your points are shown wrong by GW's own decision making and publication - they've been very up front about this whole process the entire time, we've known this was coming. You aren't right simply because your point of view is contrary to the direction things are going for GW. Not liking it doesn't make your points correct, and since you can't prove a negative, there is nothing for those telling you you are wrong to attempt to prove. You are simply incorrect by virtue of GW's own decisions.

 

Also, "you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - and that doesn't mean that they are correct.

 

If the point is moot, then walk away - it's not a needed point, nor is it correct, by virtue of it being moot.

 

Having to buy several kits to make the thing you want has been their way for ages

Yes, and I'm disappointed to see their turn against this idea too, but they have, and it happened years ago. It's not a recent occurrence.

 

now they are going mono I've pretty much stopped looking at the new 41k stuff. I find it boring, but that's another issue.

Having said that, then as a Mod, be moderate and stop commenting on things you dislike so much - it has a habit of becoming toxic. If you see something involving "41K" stuff (a title that's made up, as it's still the 40K game), then don't bother commenting and in the words of a famous stormtrooper - "Move along, move along..."

 

That's why they don't get my money. My endless expansion of my army has ended.40k was about stability, stagnation and rot, 41k is about change and hope. I prefer 40k.

Yes, we get it - things were better in your day. So stop complaining about the new day and go back to it. We've got everything needed to play 31-40ish-K already. ;)

 

I haven't seen much that indicates the so-called "41K" (because as has been pointed out, we can't even be sure that's really what it is, with the reference point for the end of the 41st millennium being cast in much doubt) that indicates it's actually about hope, beyond the hope that was always there - of fighting to live another day, to drive back the forces of darkness that close in around you despite your best efforts, being resigned to die trying in that fight if it means others might carry on beyond you.

 

If that's not the tone you are getting from the text in last ten or so Codexes and supplementary books, I'm not exactly sure how you are reading the same words except to say that there's clearly some bias involved on both our parts.

 

And honestly man, if you can't see that your own posts of "Legends should never have been" aren't totally off-topic (as in they don't discuss the topic the OP was actually writing about), I don't know what to tell you. If that's all there is left to discuss in this thread, button it up - otherwise let's discuss what Legends COULD have been, not whether it should have existed at all.

[Brother Tyler]

It's painfully obvious that we need to take a step back from this discussion, breath, think about things rationally, and get some perspective (on all sides).