Elite slots quandry

[Kobrakei]

That's a good word, quandry.

 

Anyway, I'm running the below double battalion list at the moment. It certainly chucks out enough shooting and I'm happy with how it works.

 

However, I'm wondering if it might be worth swapping the Redemptors for a couple of Invictor Warsuits not only to help support the Infiltrators, but to free up some points to get a Phobos Lieutenant to help with buffs. I'm thinking about some autocannons on them as well to help with some anti tank my list is kinda lacking...any thoughts?

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Captain [5 PL, 87pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword, The Sanctic Halo, Warlord

 

Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, Litany of Hate

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 196pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle

. 9x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Thunder hammer

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 153pts]: Bolt rifle

. 8x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 198pts]: Plasma incinerator

. 5x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Suppressor Squad [4 PL, 90pts]

. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Grav-chute

. Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Grav-chute

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

[Riddlesworth]

I'm certainly a fan of invictor warsuits as an early pressure unit. Haven't used them in conjunction with infiltrators yet. Mainly use them to take take pressure off my aggressors

 

As to autocannon or not, depends a little on your chapter tactics. Iron hands and ultramarines can give you move and fire without penalty. Bear in mind they can be using that D3 fist in melee from turn 1 if your opponent makes deployment mistakes.

 

Why 3 las fusil? Math says the sarge using his buff is better than the third fusil

[Captain Idaho]

I'd much rather have the ability to put 9 damage on a target personally, damn the witchery.

 

I quite like the Redemptors myself, as their firepower is incredible. However, I can see the benefit to having a more aggressive couple of walkers to attack with. Maybe Invictor Warsuits would better suit this lighter force.

 

You do need anti tank and will struggle against armies that feature multiples of enemy armour. Not sure a couple Autocannons will change that but they might assist somewhat alongside other stuff.

[Kobrakei]

Cheers guys for the thoughts.

 

Should have mentioned it's an Ultramarines force, so pumping out shots isnt going to be an issue, but it defo lacks anti-tank. Warsuits arent exactly AT, but can get right into vehicles if they start up close. I dont think I can drop enough to get an Executioner in either, so maybe finding a way to fit another unit of eliminators in and buffing the helblasters to carry heavy incinerators would probably be ideal. Also I'm more of a fan of the max damage rather than having 2 slightly better shots.

 

Also having the two suits would mean I could apply a decent amount of pressure from t1 to get into position with the non-phobos marines. Maybe drop the suppressors and slot in another Las-fusil eliminator unit could be an option?

 

Something like the below at 1990 pts

 

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

 

Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, Litany of Hate

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 196pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle

. 9x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Thunder hammer

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 280pts]: Heavy Plasma Incinerator

. 7x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

Edited December 15, 2019 by Kobrakei

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t rate warsuits as they just seem to always die first and do nothing when going second.

[StrummersGhost]

Are you able to use non-Primaris units? A unit of devastators with lascannons is the same cost as 5 Hellblasters Edited December 15, 2019 by StrummersGhost

[Riddlesworth]

I don’t rate warsuits as they just seem to always die first and do nothing when going second.

 

I find the move 10 helps when going second, as does the redeployment strat/warlord trait as you can position into cover (or RG/stealthy chapter trait)

 

They are usually the first things to die in my list, but it saves my aggressor block from getting blasted off the board before they get into a midfield position.

 

I do think they need saturation though. If you're running 1, you need to be running 3. 

 

@Kobrakei - your intercessor loadouts and the heavy hellblaster choice confuses me a little given that you are ultramarines.

 

I'm assuming that you have 3 different guns for the intercessors to make use of the stratagems, which is fair enough, but you only have so many CP to go around and with the ultras tactical doctrine, auto bolt rifles aren't as good as rapid fire. You can still keep the thunder hammer on the forward moving block of 10, but comparing the strats - auto bolt rifle will net you 30 hits at 12 inches AP-1 in tac doctrine, the rapid fire stratagem will net you 27 hits at AP-2 from 30 inches, which you can then apply Captain/CM/Chaplain buffs to.

 

Likewise, 8 heavy hellblasters. Against T8 3+, without buffs they'll net you 7.11 wounds. The equivalent amount of points in suppressors will net you 6.66 in devastator doctrine, and are better against T7 (roughly 10 wounds in the dev doctrine), as well as giving you a fast moving unit in tactical doctrine that doesn't lose firepower. even regular hellblasters would be better because of the rate of fire. If you wanted them for anti tank and you're using the captain buffs - another unit of eliminators would be better

Edited December 16, 2019 by Riddlesworth

[Subtleknife]

I've done two games with 2 warsuits and I got seized on first turn and the other time didnt get first turn. Both times they got wiped out first and didnt do anything but take a lot of firepower. I am hoping to one day not lose first turn and use them lol.

[Riddlesworth]

I've done two games with 2 warsuits and I got seized on first turn and the other time didnt get first turn. Both times they got wiped out first and didnt do anything but take a lot of firepower. I am hoping to one day not lose first turn and use them lol.

 

did that 260 points make your aggressors/hellblasters live longer and actually do something in Turn 2?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sacrificing over 10% of your army to protect other units doesn’t seem worth it to me.

[Riddlesworth]

Sacrificing over 10% of your army to protect other units doesn’t seem worth it to me.

I'm struggling to find other ways to do it without taking transports or playing ravenguard. Hellblasters and aggressors just dont make it past turn 1 to do anything without other threats.

 

What's the solution?

[Subtleknife]

 

 

I've done two games with 2 warsuits and I got seized on first turn and the other time didnt get first turn. Both times they got wiped out first and didnt do anything but take a lot of firepower. I am hoping to one day not lose first turn and use them lol.

did that 260 points make your aggressors/hellblasters live longer and actually do something in Turn 2?

No I got spanked by a triple riptide list which was pretty much a hard counter to my primaris only army. Probably not the best test environment if I'm honest lol

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Riddlesworth sounds like not enough line of sight blocking terrain... table should at least be covered by 25%. Also use ITC rule that ground floors of ruins and buildings block line of sight.

[Riddlesworth]

Riddlesworth sounds like not enough line of sight blocking terrain... table should at least be covered by 25%. Also use ITC rule that ground floors of ruins and buildings block line of sight.

Yeah our tables need a bit more terrain. They're not far off though. Does that not make the invictor more valuable with its 10 inch move for you?

[ValourousHeart]

I don’t rate warsuits as they just seem to always die first and do nothing when going second.

That likely has something to do with the perceived threat level of the Warsuits and how you deployed them.

 

If you have them 9 inches of the enemy turn one, they can get a first turn charge, which would be devastating to quite a few armies.

If the rest of your army isn't likely to be able to charge until turn 3, then you were too aggressive with the Warsuits.

 

It really isn't any different than land speeders.

If you have 1-2 land speeders and the rest of your force will probably never get to your opponent's deployment zone, it is a dumb idea to fly those 1-2 land speeders into your opponents deployment zone turn 1.

Because you can't support them that far away.

 

Sacrificing over 10% of your army to protect other units doesn’t seem worth it to me.

 

Apparently you haven't faced Tau with Drones.

It actually seems like a staple of 40k at this point.

In previous editions Deathwing players would bring some pricey Ravenwing units just for the teleport homers.

Being a Ravenwing player and knowing how capable those RW units were, I too thought it was dumb that the only expectation those DW players had for those RW units was to deliver the DW units.

But, after seeing it in action I could see that they had a good strategy at work.

 

 

 

Sacrificing over 10% of your army to protect other units doesn’t seem worth it to me.

I'm struggling to find other ways to do it without taking transports or playing ravenguard. Hellblasters and aggressors just dont make it past turn 1 to do anything without other threats.

 

What's the solution?

 

I've found that leveling out the threat curve for the entire army gives me the best results with Marines.

If everything in your army presents an equal threat from the start then your opponent has to make judgement calls on what to attack.

The more judgement calls they make that have little to no impact on the effectiveness of your army, will make them start to second guess their calls.

The more often they second guess their calls the more likely they are to be inefficient with their attacks.

 

Using that strategy I have a very even level with my army which makes it hard to tell what my opponent should eliminate first to hamper my army most.

Because there are no lynch pin units in my list, it doesn't matter which they pick, it isn't going to have that big of an impact on the effectiveness of the remaining units. 

So typically they will focus down 1-2 of my units that they consider to be a threat, while I target only their units that wound me on 3+ with good range.

By the time they have focused down which ever unit(s), I have dealt with their big guns and now they are wounding me on 5+.  

Edited December 16, 2019 by ValourousHeart

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Most armies can screen against aggressive deployment from Warsuits. It’s a really cool unit but if I were to take them I’d be a lot more conservative and use them mainly for counter assaulting.

 

I’ve played many games versus Tau with drone spam... focus on eliminating the drones first. ;)

Edited December 16, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Aothaine]

I’ve played many games versus Tau with drone spam... focus on eliminating the drones first.

 

BBF has it right. Drones first. They are super easy to kill and have really low morale so you don't even need to wipe the whole unit unless they have a ld aura nearby.

[Kobrakei]

Defo had a think about this and I'm not sure the Warsuits are the right path. I've kept the Redemptors and managed to fit in at least another unit of Eliminators. I'll probably look to fit another Eliminator unit as well so I have better AT and let that apply the pressure. Also i do like the heavy plasma so thinking about keeping that in.

 

 

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

 

Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, Litany of Hate

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 245pts]: Heavy Plasma Incinerator

. 6x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 108pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Las Fusil

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

Edited December 17, 2019 by Kobrakei

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Looks solid to me lots of boots on the ground.

[Aothaine]

Defo had a think about this and I'm not sure the Warsuits are the right path. I've kept the Redemptors and managed to fit in at least another unit of Eliminators. I'll probably look to fit another Eliminator unit as well so I have better AT and let that apply the pressure. Also i do like the heavy plasma so thinking about keeping that in.

 

If you can, drop the las fusils on the eliminator Sgts. Give them the instigator bolt carbine that lets them fire and fall back from a charge. This frees up the Sgt to help them aim so they are hitting on 2+ and makes them a very difficult unit to charge. Otherwise the list is pretty decent. :D It will end up freeing 30 pts. Not sure what you might be able to use that on, but imho it is the better option.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The fall back is so worth it IMO .

[Kobrakei]

Not to necro my thread, but I've been having a little play with this list and come up with the following. Calgar's rerolls and CP boosts are too good to pass up I feel, and trading out the Hellblasters was the only way to get him in as well as another unit of Eliminators. 16 CP in total should be enough to make sure they're dishing out the pain.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [53 PL, 3CP, 1,036pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Show Primaris Only

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine, Santic Halo

 

Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, Litany of Hate

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 158pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 8x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [23 PL, 468pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [23 PL, 494pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

 

+ HQ +

 

Marneus Calgar [11 PL, 200pts]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 98pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 98pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 98pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

[Riddlesworth]

Where does the Phobos captain go? With the eliminators? it's a shame you can't find the points for comms on the infiltrators to take advantage of the re-rolls for them as well a calgar with the aggressors.

[Kobrakei]

He would go with the infiltrators, but also having the Santic Halo helps to shut down psykers from the start of the game - I could drop a couple of Intercessors for the Comms, but think that would be rather situational. The Eliminators would have a lieutenant with them, plus the Sargeant bonuses would help with hitting.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Kobrakei