Dark Apostle : what do you think?

[BolterZorro]

Help me to decide. I like to try several builds with my chaos army.

But I didn't buy the dark apostle. I am super hesitating atm. It is another 25€ to spend. According to the PA and the recent CA, what do you think about him? Is he MUST HAVE in the current chaos meta or still meh...? (he was almost useless previouly to CA because too pts expensive)

[MasterDeath]

Well, with the new Prayers he is basically as flexible as a Psyker. He can buff melee and ranged, can protect a single unit good or many units a bit and with F&F some legions got relics etc. that are priest specific. (EC with the Fragment of somethingsomething.) He is a support character, if you like these, you will like the DA. If your prefer Smashlords, stay with these. I would not say he is a must have.

[Marshal Loss]

I don't know if he is a must have unless you're playing Word Bearers or EC, but I do think he's a fantastic unit. It really depends on what's in your list.

[TrawlingCleaner]

IMO Dark Apostles have some of the best utility in the codex, even when not a Word Bearer.

+1 to hit

+1 to wound

-1 to be hit are all really great buffs, not to mention the reroll all failed hits in the fight phase which is something we can't get outside of Abaddon.

If you don't need him for the combat bonuses, he's still very good for the other utility. 72 points is an absolute steal IMO

[Kain Mor]

I don’t look at the dark Apostle as 72 points because you should really always take the disciples, so he’s basically 82 pts and a bare bones sorcerer is 88. Unless I physically can’t scrounge up the six points I will take a sorcerer every single time.

 

The main problems with the dark Apostle:

1: Prayers happen at the start of the battle round, so both he and his target have to be on the table, not in transports or deepstrike.

2. Unless you’re word bearers, you only get to chant one prayer. (Don’t get me started on how :cuss lame it is that loyalists get master of sanctity for any sub faction, and ours is locked behind *word bearers*

3. If you’re taking dark disciples (which you kinda have to, unless you realllly trust a 3+) he takes up three transport capacity.

 

 

He does have a perk or two over the sorcerer:

1. Prayers can’t be denied by your opponent

2. With the dark disciples, and even a little less without, the prayers are more likely to go off

As others have said, he’s a support character so you have to consider what units you’re trying to buff. If you’re using him to protect a forgeworld dreadnought parking lot or some other stationary castle he might not be the worst choice. If you want him protected from snipers or if he needs to keep up with advancing units, you might want to look elsewhere.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

They are actually a bit better than Kain lets on, as one of their "weaknesses" is one of their biggest strengths - at least for defensive powers.

 

Yes, their powers go off at the beginning of the battle round, which means they have to be on the table to have them go off.  That said, the fact their powers go off at the beginning of the battle round (rather than during your turn) means that their defensive powers are in play from the beginning of the game even if you go second.  To me, that's the biggest advantage for Apostles over Sorcerers.

 

The other advantage is with warp sight - in matched play, you can only cast prescience once per turn which means you can only give one unit +1 to hit.  With an Apostle with warp sight, you can essentially cast it again - which allows you to buff more than one shooting unit at a time.  While you are unlikely to have the free points in smaller games, being able to take both in larger games can really enhance your shooting, especially against units/armies that give penalties to hit.

 

Don't get me wrong - Apostles essentially only having 1 power in most games (the reroll hits one, while fluffy, really only comes into play in melee focused lists or against melee focused enemies, and the god powers are largely underwhelming) is a big hit over the Sorcerer's being able to cast twice from 3 power choices - 4 if you use the Chaos Familiar stratagem.

 

Personally, I would almost always pick a Sorcerer over an Apostle, as they are more versatile and my armies focus more on offense than defense.  That said, I'm likely to take an Apostle as my 3rd HQ choice (after a daemon prince and a sorcerer) when I've gotten mine painted (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346143-the-judgment-on-kadeth-dr-ruminahuis-emperors-children/?p=5448417).

Edited December 18, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Kain Mor]

That is a very good point about the defensive buffs happening before T1 if you go second, I’ll edit that in.

I feel like if they hadn’t legion locked the ability to chant two powers I would be much more likely to look more seriously at using one.

 

Being able to essentially double up on prescience is also a nice perk. Night Lords’ new stratagem would even allow a 3rd +1 to hit on a unit providing your LD is higher, which on a veteran unit like chosen or anyone within 6” of the Dark Apostle is likely. Especially from T2 on when you likely have some units close to the enemy.

 

There is one other perk I overlooked, and that is that the sorcerer has no invuln save while the dark Apostle has a 4++. In the age of AP saturated nuMarines that is appealing

[BolterZorro]

Ok about the "magic/prayers". What's about the combat skills? Is he good? can it be buffed to be a not so bad fighter?

 

(BTW side note: my today decision was to buy 20 cultists in place of the apostle (about same price) : what triggered my decision is that not only I had zero cultist but I can use them in several armies/list like my CSM and TS ). 

[Kain Mor]

I think for beatsticks there are wayyy better options. For 60pts the Master of Executions is incredible in combat. I already got some really good use out of him at 70 pts, with the drop he’s almost too good to not take.

Plus, if I have a spare relic slot I’ll toss the intoxicating elixir, so with hateful assault he is 7 S 10 ap-3 D d3 attacks with mortal wounds in 6’s to wound. I don’t see a dark Apostle measuring up to that damage output, even if you give him the Black Mace.

 

As far as using him to support melee units like Zerkers or possessed blobs I think your main issue will be delivery, since he has to be on the board to pray so if you’re transporting, deepstriking, or Warptiming your melee units he won’t be in range.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Kain Mor

[MegaVolt87]

Nah, IW DA with seigebreaker mace and the strength buff is a great beatstick, which prompted me to finally convert one up. I am going Sorc + DA for my red corsair CP battery as my HQ's. The 5++ bubble, presience, death hex is a good toolbox for them. You can do a lot, I haven't even finalized the squad loadouts and relics that accompany them yet. I decided to do chaos knights, so its a good second detachment. 

[Mekhitar]

They have all sorts of interesting buffs, but I think they can be a trap too (taking too many supporting units and not enough meat in the list). I think many builds have room for 1, but I prefer exalted champs (reroll to wd) over the additional +1, and jump sorcerers with more mobility and 2 powers over apostles with 1.

 

No need to buy the model, a dark vengeance chosen with a power maul makes for a good stand-in.

[Doom Herald]

They have all sorts of interesting buffs, but I think they can be a trap too (taking too many supporting units and not enough meat in the list). I think many builds have room for 1, but I prefer exalted champs (reroll to wd) over the additional +1, and jump sorcerers with more mobility and 2 powers over apostles with 1.

 

No need to buy the model, a dark vengeance chosen with a power maul makes for a good stand-in.

It makes an excellent stand-in. He even has a skull on his helmet which, when painted right, can make him look like a corrupted Chaplain. Its what I used as a model for him when the only real one was finecast. Edited December 19, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'll try to get a picture up of my Draznicht-as-Apostle. I picked it because the last two Apostle sculpts look ridiculous to me: the first one had waaaaay too long scrolls and the new one's crozius is a pimp cane and he's wearing a tee shirt over his cuirass.

[Doom Herald]

Since we've been bringing up Draznicht, I think its appropriate to mention that GW is teasing Dark Vengeance as a made to order item for one day only on christmas day. I'm not sure you will get much out of the Dark Angels half, but all the Chaos Chosen, including Draznicht, scale well with the new CSM models. You also get lots of cultists, including some unique sculpts.

 

Edit: made to order for 1 week, not day.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Dread]

The Dark Angels would be beneficial, fallen if you like that flavor. Take Cypher for fluff reasons.

[Khornestar]

World Eaters apostles have the added bonus of a banner relic that gives a once per game +1A buff. A nice additional benefit on top of a prayer, or to make up for being unable to use prayers after disembarking from a transport.

[Dallas Drake]

I wasn’t sold at first and wasn’t impressed the first few times I used him. But now I always try to bring one, sometimes two. +1 to hit on Havocs or Oblits is just so useful and the +1 to wound or -1 to hit is super useful also. +1 to wound on a unit like Possessed or Berserkers in tandem with vets ensures you’re wounding most things on 2+ and T7-8 on 3+. I wouldn’t let the GW model put you off as you can convert your own quite easily, resin books are quite easy to pick up for €5-7.

[MadEdric]

I've liked using a DA, more so now that they have better powers to choose from. Others have already pointed out the goods they bring.

 

I didn't buy the model as there is nothing inherent to the DA that you can't easily kitbash together.

I used the bigger powermaul from the Havoks kit as his crosius, shaved the horns off of the skull faced bezerker helmet, and used new chaos marine body. I'll also add the book from the Sorcerer/Chaos Lord kit as well.