(Pics in Thread) Batrep Skorpius Test?

[Prot]

Thanks.

 

I'm definitely not saying the transport is the be all, end all. But since I've been learning how to better defend with them, and force people to shoot at them, I can see the contents are infinitely more usable than the pre-Dunerider era.

 

Again the tanks are good. Not great, but good value. I still have tremendous trouble with T8 (and to a degree T7 for sure). 

 

I was never big on the drill because I wanted something to push outwards with, and create some difficult decisions for all those aggressive armies you face. And the Omnissiah knows I tried hard to get all my priest units working. But now they have a role.

 

It's funny though but especially in this modern era of 8th the priests still die incredibly fast. Even the disco stick priests with their 3++ invuln after finishing off Lychguard. That T3 is just really hard to keep alive. Which is fine, but I guess what I'm saying is there's no way these units are -valid- without a form of transport. I can't believe I used to try walking them up the board, even in cover. lol

[Black Knight]

All normal melee models need a transport, there is no real exception to that in any army. The need for a delivery mechanism is the only way the game has to really combat them, although there are some new mechanics such as charge reduction and charge withdraw slowly cropping up. If they could constantly get into combat with no issues then the game would have a problem, some of the current advance 30+ inches is the band aid the game currently has to revert to for a melee army to work. So without a transport(Forgeworld doesn't count ) we have had no real delivery mechanism(Infiltrators have been ok due to infiltrate) and therefor no real melee option.

 

We now have the transport so it will take time for the new strats to emerge, Prot is in the thick of those discoveries(Starts singing: Throw a coin to your Witcher). Especially in an army which up until now has never had a transport it will need some rethinking. Do not even mention the fact we are now getting a second one which is a flier, a rarity even in 40k. Our new flier is really going to throw the old rules out, it might be a crap unit but its going to be really fun and a lot of work to test all the new strats that a flier will give us and a transport at that.

 

Give Rustalkers a -1 to hit or better the Genestealer blip mechanic, delivery mechanic sorted.

Infiltrators have a delivery mechanic.

Jaz hands should be powerful and need a transport.

I would give ranged priests more static defence(A shield of sorts) and make them slower(Struggling to carry the power packs), need a transport to get them to their destination but treat them more like Aggressors for chaff removal.

Breachers still need a delivery mechanism to combat their slowness which I do not mind. Remember when they had a drop mechanic they were fun then, now they are cheap multi-wound bodies.

 

Now give us that flier GW within a year please.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Black_Knight

[brother_b]

I think a strength oft overlooked with our army is the move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. For kataphrons their inexorable move forward while firing has been a real strength in my games. I have yet to build my transports but my opponents will soon have to pick between a forward push of transports with priests or my kataphrons.

 

I have kept vanguard as mid table troops to surge forward as needed or move backwards to cover drops in my deployment zone. They’ve rarely lasted being a fairly squishy target. I hope the transports will alleviate some of that attention for the first couple of turns.

 

I’ve also considered taking some of the forgewirld guys with shields and spears. They’d make a great “second wave” to my transports.

 

And why move forward in the first place? Why not just Cawl castle with mars? I don’t play mars I play Stygies. So doesn’t the advance remove my Stygies VIII bonus?

 

My answer is why not? For fun and a change of pace and to try things out. We get some healthy buffs to melee via canticles and I’ve only really had issues in melee vs dedicated armies like Khorne and Tyranids.

 

My army will also add Scorpius, along with at least two if not three onager. I’ll probably remove robots for now or keep it a small unit. I think the onager and scorpius fire base will be rather strong especially with healing provided by my various HQ units.

 

We are not a new marine heavy meta here. I think we represent a typical local player meta with space wolves and IG, orcs, etc. I have not had to face the rubbish that is 2 wound bolt rifles moving up the table. That’s a scary thought and it’s only a matter of time.

 

Anyway just thoughts. I need to finish painting my squad of kataphrons, churn out more infantry, and build those tanks.

[Gaz1858]

I think a strength oft overlooked with our army is the move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. For kataphrons their inexorable move forward while firing has been a real strength in my games. I have yet to build my transports but my opponents will soon have to pick between a forward push of transports with priests or my kataphrons.

 

I have kept vanguard as mid table troops to surge forward as needed or move backwards to cover drops in my deployment zone. They’ve rarely lasted being a fairly squishy target. I hope the transports will alleviate some of that attention for the first couple of turns.

 

I’ve also considered taking some of the forgewirld guys with shields and spears. They’d make a great “second wave” to my transports.

 

And why move forward in the first place? Why not just Cawl castle with mars? I don’t play mars I play Stygies. So doesn’t the advance remove my Stygies VIII bonus?

 

My answer is why not? For fun and a change of pace and to try things out. We get some healthy buffs to melee via canticles and I’ve only really had issues in melee vs dedicated armies like Khorne and Tyranids.

 

My army will also add Scorpius, along with at least two if not three onager. I’ll probably remove robots for now or keep it a small unit. I think the onager and scorpius fire base will be rather strong especially with healing provided by my various HQ units.

 

We are not a new marine heavy meta here. I think we represent a typical local player meta with space wolves and IG, orcs, etc. I have not had to face the rubbish that is 2 wound bolt rifles moving up the table. That’s a scary thought and it’s only a matter of time.

 

Anyway just thoughts. I need to finish painting my squad of kataphrons, churn out more infantry, and build those tanks.

I totally agree with the move and fire concept that our army has. My turn 1 and sometimes turn 2 is quite mobile as I react to enemy placements and threats. From t3 onwards I am usually where I need/want to be with most units and will put bots into double shot and will castle close to mid table.

 

Theres a lot to consider in this strategy though. Additional screening against DSing units may be required. Are your assault elements (if any) in position or in combat already? Am I holding enough Obj and can I take the game from this point?

 

Your whole game doesnt have to be move and shoot but the ability to "redeploy" so to speak in turn 1 and 2 is fairly powerful

[brother_b]

My assault elements have been my Kataphron breachers. Their huge bases and high wounds/str do the real work. They tend to screen out real threats like Khorne bezerkers and can mangle weaker enemies. The loss of shooting for a round is a hit, but as long as the big guns keep firing I’m good.

 

My infiltrators are too weak to do real work on anything stronger than chaff. I’ve learned that the hard way.

 

I’ve only rarely used stick priests as I’m not done painting them. They were amazing.

 

Fist bots work wonders if they hit as they threaten everything. Their mediocre WS and low A still means they’re best served against high wound elite units or vehicles.

 

I’ve tried the fat guy from KT with the relic dendrites. He actually did good work vs chaff but is sub par vs. dedicated melee units.

 

I have yet to try the forge world spear guys or sicarians. I also have to finish my dragoons. I’m excited about those as I’ve only heard good things about them.

Edited December 29, 2019 by brother_b

[Gaz1858]

My assault elements have been my Kataphron breachers. Their huge bases and high wounds/str do the real work. They tend to screen out real threats like Khorne bezerkers and can mangle weaker enemies. The loss of shooting for a round is a hit, but as long as the big guns keep firing I’m good.

 

My infiltrators are too weak to do real work on anything stronger than chaff. I’ve learned that the hard way.

 

I’ve only rarely used stick priests as I’m not done painting them. They were amazing.

 

Fist bots work wonders if they hit as they threaten everything. Their mediocre WS and low A still means they’re best served against high wound elite units or vehicles.

 

I’ve tried the fat guy from KT with the relic dendrites. He actually did good work vs chaff but is sub par vs. dedicated melee units.

 

I have yet to try the forge world spear guys or sicarians. I also have to finish my dragoons. I’m excited about those as I’ve only heard good things about them.

I agree on infiltrators. Just a bit too squishy and their weapons arent brilliant.

 

Fist bots are not quite there yet for me. The pt reductions are nice but their rules still dont support the cost.

 

Manipulus is great. Not necessarily as a cc unit but his buffs are brill. I use him much like cawl in cc, clearing away units that have assaulted my bots etc.

 

Ive tried Hoplites as I thought theyd be great but with S6 and their targets being vehicles it doesnt really add up.

 

Fulgurites are just fantastic. Sometimes they wont do much, sometimes theyll just steamroll unit after unit. If nothing else anyone who has played against them fears them so its another target for them to worry about on top of your bots, skorpius etc etc.

[Prot]

I have always loved the Priest units. The fact they work so well in the transports is just icing on the cake for me. 

 

Even hearing the rumour about heavy AdMech infantry doesn't really do too much for me. I mean between Kastellans, Destoyers, and Breachers, I think that role is pretty fulfilled. In fact more of that stuff threatens to make one of our current units obsolete.

 

The Priests aren't amazing, but they do a job well. The Infiltrators are usually in my list, but only for the reason of psychological deployment considerations. When you have zero deep strikers in competitive play, it opens up your opponent too much. They get too comfortable. (A flyer -might- rectify that as it can have a similar psychological effect.)

 

In desperate situations, including yesterday, I held the Infiltrators back until late game and sure enough... I pulled off a cheeky Mars Strat and got some lucky mortal wounds off a damaged vehicle.

[Charlo]

Prot, if you don't mind, what does the current list look like?

[Burni]

Reading threads like these really brings home how terrible a player I am and how much my dice rolls suck

[Subtle Discord]

 

Even hearing the rumour about heavy AdMech infantry doesn't really do too much for me. I mean between Kastellans, Destoyers, and Breachers, I think that role is pretty fulfilled. In fact more of that stuff threatens to make one of our current units obsolete.

Hints seem to be pointing towards a unit that should be fast moving and/or with jump capabilities and if that's the case I suspect they might even be able to hot-drop from the new flyer. So, if GW does them right* they'll compete but not be redundant, offering a different role and tactics. I personally don't mind competition for slots in a list (especially if all/most of the options are viable) but needless redundancy is the killer. I think we can agree that the AdMech could use some more fast moving units to balance the slow-and-relentless units that are already abundant.

 

*I am fully away of GWs ability to completely miss the mark, I've got my fingers crossed too.

[Reigart]

This is an interesting read and thank you for sharing.  I've been busy with life, but managed to sneak in a team tournament (I'll finally update my thread so I don't take over this one) and I find a lot of your conclusions.

 

Suffice to say, in the tournament I ran 2 indirect skorpius', 3 kastellans and cawl (and infantry for objectives).  I knew I would struggle with T8, but wrath of mars covered it for a repulsor on one game.  I was lucky where my teammate had T8 covered.  I will say, in the three game stretch, in ITC-esque rules, my MVPs were the skorpius'.  The mobility allowed them to get into firing position and establish board control.  The mix of weapons really filled some holes (the stubbers cleared chaff, the rocket launchers killed light tanks - 3 hydras in one game and the indirect pressured the enemies how were min-maxing troops for hidden objectives.  The caveat to this was my RNG rolls were awesome.  I think you hit the nail on the head by saying it's the value of the skorpius that makes it good.

 

Quick question: did you combine Daedaelous with jazz hands?  I've been thinking of this for a psuedo-immortal style tesla effect.

[Prot]

Prot, if you don't mind, what does the current list look like?

 

Well because I am constantly experimenting the list is all over the place. The constant is: 2 Skorpius (3 has only been used in 2 games, and it's almost not worth it, but it depends on your meta. It's still best at horde clearing and killing hiding primaris (which isn't that common.))

 

I started with 1, but have graduated to 2 of the transport. Again this is the life blood of the list. We can find firing from just about anywhere but this to me breathes new life into this codex. I stubbornly wrote off the transport when it came out.

 

A very, very basic Battalion... I've always stuck to Mars so it's Cawl, Daedelosus, Manipulus, and Rangers. (I don't like playing such insignificant troops but this is for the 'experiment'.

 

Finally a very big, but underappreciated part of this experiment is my 'gap filler'; the Knight detachment which is also non-optimal but its goal is to just delay close combat. (Iron Hands would be a far better competitive ally but I'll never do that.)

 

Reading threads like these really brings home how terrible a player I am and how much my dice rolls suck

 

I'm pretty sure we all suck when the dice go cold! (This list and army has a LOT of RNG which is extremely swingy at times and can make you feel like fate is against you. )

 

 

 

Quick question: did you combine Daedaelous with jazz hands?  I've been thinking of this for a psuedo-immortal style tesla effect.

 

I look forward to your review. 

 

I use that combo all the time, very effectively. :)

[Gaz1858]

I like what you said about meta and its something everyone needs to remember when it comes to these forums. All viewpoints come from the meta which may be totally different to you.

 

Prot, for example, doesnt seem to see Primaris whereas I do so I take 3 Skorpius. It all comes down to three things. Whats your playstyle and whats your meta and whats your goal?

 

For me i play aggressive. Meta is very competitive so marines are everywhere. And my goal is to get high ITC points running pure lists (so no allies for me)

 

Just something to remember when talking about a "good" unit or how many of something to take

[Prot]

Exactly.... but just so you know until very recently, I was the Marine player in my group. In another group there are a hand full of multi coloured Iron Hands armies. ( it’s ridiculous actually). 
 

but there’s still a lot of VERY competitive Astra and Knight players. ( Astra continues to do well anywhere really. I just think it’s a hard and expensive army to collect). 

[Gaz1858]

Where are you Prot?

[Reigart]

Good thread and discussion.  

 

... It all comes down to three things. Whats your playstyle and whats your meta and whats your goal?

 

This is my favorite quote.   I try to match all of those with opponents and settings that have similar answers to those questions - even if it's just for a day.   I have friends that love competitive and making meta breaking lists.  A lot of those lists are not friendly.  The most enjoyment I've had with 40k is when I set a goal (e.g., have fun - if so, what does that mean to you?).  I love competitive team tournaments to have some collaboration and think about a lot of non-traditional combinations.  I also look at the venues and try to find competitions that mirror the intensity I want.  At Adepticon team tournament 2 years ago, I was introduced to Ynarri (on the receiving end and utterly crushed) and for me, I enjoyed it because I've come to appreciate the different combos.  However, other times I'll play just to field units (e.g., I did a narrative game a month ago with my Tyranids and took some of their lords of war - which are not point effective, but look like zerglings from Starcraft).

 

I'm learning my playstyle loves mobility.  I dislike anything where you have to stay still to get a buff, which is why I'm torn on the Kastellans.  The rate and weight of fire can be gross, but at BS 4+, whether to go Mars or not (and take 190 points of Cawl sitting around) and the datasmith inclusion dilemma (I never take one), is now my constrant struggle.  On one end, Kastellans could be a distraction Carnifex - take two, set them up and see what they kill.  In my team tournament, I did this with the group of three and it was interesting to see opponents struggle over what to do.  On the other end, wrath of mars puts out so much fire and the unit may potentially soak an entire army's heavy firepower...but then you're almost a one trick pony.  To me, because I haven't gone down the Kataphron or priest hole yet, Ad Mech is an army about optimizing heavy support choices that cost about 110-115 a model, that's why I like the skorpiuses, and when I run out of choices for them, the Onager looks interesting.

 

Edit: readability

Edited January 2, 2020 by Reigart

[Prot]

Well I've had a few more games, and I'll say a super hard match up for me has become the Orks.

 

They are definitely capable of competitive play and I've seen it enough in tournament play to know they can shoot just as well as us, yet have 80-100 bodies to soak stuff up. For example I just faced a list with 3 Shokk attack guns. I can't interact with the shokk attack guns because we don't have the movement to truly threaten them with a CC option.... 

 

Eventually I end up with tough decisions using the Skorpius: Hide it and use indirect. Fire full throttle and take out high value targets (IE: 6+ smasha guns) or try to get the Boyz down in numbers.

 

I couldn't find a solution. I tried splitting fire with the Skorpius, and my 3 transports. It just didn't work. I still had 60 or so boyz in my face T2 (between movement and Da Jump).  

 

The Skorpius is good, but I gotta say we just still really lack in the ability to recover from very aggressive armies like Orks. I removed my Knights from my Admech to have a dual Batt. I think I'll go back to the Knights as I had 'something' to truly take on the Close combat madness.

 

There's some aggressive BA in my area too. I don't think I could handle that either right now. (I sure hope the steel Horsies are good.)

[brother_b]

Would dragoons not work as a counter charge unit or a unit to put in their faces to take out the melee side? How about dakka bots? I'm sure you've tried all I have the same issue with hordes.

[Gaz1858]

I use Dakka Bots as well as Skorpius as they just chew through hordes which helps against Orks.

 

They are a tough army to face though

[Xisor]

I'm guessing there's no room for a gun line brimming with flamer-toting Destroyers?

 

In terms of cost effectiveness, I imagine that wouldn't be so... effective.

[Prot]

Would dragoons not work as a counter charge unit or a unit to put in their faces to take out the melee side? How about dakka bots? I'm sure you've tried all I have the same issue with hordes.

 

I should have given more details. As usual I took pictures but I just don't have the time to do full reports (I usually play 2-3 games a week and report on one of them, but Thousand Sons have been 'hot' lately, and my 'Eldar' is a fledgling project I try to keep busy with.) 

 

So I had 3 of the Dragoons, but they couldn't crack the battle wagon's T8 multiwound transports, and the ensuing combats gobbled up the Dragoons. The real failure here, and continues to be... is the Neutronagers. I simply think they are a bad choice competitively. I still see people taking them in hardcore situations and I never really see them work unless someone is having an extremely good RNG moment with them.

 

Dakka Bots are out of my list indefinitely. My meta is way too fast for them. They get touched way too often, and our screens are horrible. At best I get one turn of shooting. 

 

I'm just getting far more mileage out of Skorpius tanks and (as I've mentioned) the transports. 

 

 

I use Dakka Bots as well as Skorpius as they just chew through hordes which helps against Orks.

 

They are a tough army to face though

 

 

I really don't know how to stop 2 battlewagons doing turn 1 'scout' moves, a first turn Da Jump of 30 boys, and a truck full of boyz. T2 is 10 mega armoured Knobs. not to mention you can't actually shoot the lootas or Shok Attack guns for 2-3 turns.

 

Also I guess we use pretty decent terrain, and the Dakka Bots can really do business if given T1, WoM, and Line of Sight. Even in this game I probably wouldn't have done much because none of those conditions were met, and on top of it, he lead with T8 Battlewagons. 

 

Honestly it's those games... think of stuff like this, Possessed Daemon Bomb, etc, that make me put away AdMech for a while. I seem to other annihilate my opponent or get annihilated. 

[Black Knight]

The problem with replacing Dunecrawlers with the Skorpius, which a few are trying to do, is that the indirect fire version is so good you need your three Datasheets worth of them to be that load out so you still need the Dunecrawlers for the strength 10 weapons even if it is swingy. Until we get another source of indirect fire the Skorpious needs to fill that roll and not the tank killing one.

 

I really do hope they redesign the Dunecrawler with Heavy2, that at least will fix a lot of problems but oh I wish we could also get a half movement, double shot.

[Prot]

I'm going back to this list with a new tweak tonight. Well not new... but I got away from the mini Knight detachment, and I just can't push back on Ork hordes, or aggressive armies like Blood Angels. So I'm going to be pulling out the Preceptor again.

 

I prefer to stay pure but if I budge off that line at least it's just with one larger Knight and 2 smaller ones.

[Malakithe]

Im looking to do a sort of threat saturation style list with 3xDunecrawlers, 3xSkorpius, and 3xArmigers Moiraxes. That way you dont have the choose lol

[Prot]

Well it went pretty good against Blood angles. First turn helped a lot. Though I have to admit that even 2 blood angels characters, cracking open Knights in your lines is darn scary.  But we held it together to get a healthy win.