White Scars' combat prowess after the 2nd Battle of Prospero

[Welcheren]

Greetings all,

 

I am basing the discussion on the BL novels Scars and Path of Heaven:

 

Question:

- Do the Heresy WS perform rather poorly up to the Siege of Terra?

 

 

SPOILERS!

 

 

Terms of reference:

- While the Khan searches for a route back to Terra, the brotherhoods strike at the traitors' supply lines.

- However, the Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Emperor's Childen effectively nullify WS tactics. BL's Path of Heaven gave me the impression that the WS take a horrible beating, owing to their own weaknesses.

 

Possible conclusions:

- The WS are overspecialised. While the Khan is a great 1v1 warrior (better than Guilliman) he is a poor tactician. Mortarion and Eidolon trampled the Scars before the events of Dark Glass and, all in all, gave them a beating that less specialised legions like the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists might have avoided.

 

Or:

 

- The WS had been undersupplied owing to Horus' conspiracy. They had been isolated. They were far from supply lines to retreat to. Their strenght had been hampered by internal divisions. All in all, bearing these factors in mind, the WS performed quite well against the Death Guard and Emperor's Children before finding a route back to Terra.

[Brother Tyler]

I'm moving this over to the Age of Darkness forum.

[Welcheren]

Thanks.

[sarabando]

i think they suffer due to poor equipment and basically the traitors having the home field advantage. the traitors can afford to take losses that if they couldnt would have made the WS attacks devastating

[bluntblade]

The Scars do plenty of damage, but at the end of the day they're fighting multiple Space Marine Legions. Wraight writes it as them losing the advantage of surprise and their enemies adapting, just as good, dynamic villains should.

 

Essentially, Wraight manages to land on the right side of the question "are your villain's successes do to their competence or the hero's incompetence?"

[Welcheren]

Wraight does manage to paint a compelling lustre over the Scars. And it is true that Mortarian in particular emerges as a frightening commander to face. A dynamic villain he certain is. From a technical/tactical perspective, it does not seem as though the Scars have much with which to respond once a foe call their game, unless I missed something.

[Vykes]

Aye, I agree with the consensus really.  With the way that Scars and Path to heaven paints the White Scars, it seems like a surprisingly good balance of factors at play with competent foes and heroes.  Blundblade nailed it and I think Sarabando definitely got a good piece of it to:  the scars attacks were definitely disruptive and damaging over the course of the whole campaign but it has to be split up into several general 'phases'. 

 

The initial successes were hampered by a less cohesive command structure and internal strife that plagued the 5th at Chondax, and is compounded by having a relative scarcity of component personnel.  They are a specialized force that were able to win several decisive engagements which essentially broke the blockade and, as such, used their expertise against the rearguard of more vulnerable targets.  In that, they were enormously successful (even if we can argue about the true nature of the Alpha Legion as opponents). 

 

But as they started to chew into other legions supply lines, their opponents adapted.  They started becoming more guarded, more hardened, and then specialist hunter cadres and fleets were sent out to pin down the Scars, led by the likes of Eidolon.  When backed with a panoply of other legions specializations, they were able to slowly close that gap compared to the scars.  I don't think this is a failing of the Khan or the Scars, but it could read into their relative lack of strategic and tactical flexibility, melded with their comparative inexperience facing Legion-centric foes.  As such, the White Scars greatest assets began to slowly get overwhelmed by a crippling loss of materiel and supplies, as well as a smarter foe who started to close the proverbial noose by limiting what the White Scars raids and actions could target for net-gains. 

 

By the end we have the cracks beginning to form: the White Scars don't want to get hemmed in to fight a protracted field battle against numerically superior opponents with a greater breadth and scope of flexibility.  The attrition numbers are starting to turn because of the adaptation afforded to their opponents, and they've been more or less wrangled into certain  decisions by dint of their strategic needs.  Yet, they still pulled off a few impressive ruse de guerres such as their play at the Kalium Gate. 

 

All in all, I think the scars did relatively well and probably lasted longer than a number of more conventional legions; by prolonging their operations and not giving up the large standing engagements in the absence of sound logistical supports.  While another legion like the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines etc etc may have been able to win more decisive engagements, I think its numbers and resources would have been spent far quicker, and thus contributed to tying down less forces for a shorter amount of time.  The Khan succeeded in necessitating that a huge amount of material was put in the field just to counter him, supplies and troops that could have been used to better effect in other theatres.  

[Welcheren]

That is a neat summary Vykes.

 

 

One tiny question:

Did you mean component personnel or competent personnel?

 

component  - as in fewer commanders to whom to assign command of splinter fleet elements, or

competent  - as in the White Scars are staffed by less capable sub-commanders?

 

 

 

 

All in all, it still makes me wonder whether the White Scars have more surprises once their basic one trick poney has been countered. Perhaps events during Siege of Terra will clarify that point.

[Vykes]

-laughs- I did actually mean component, IE, the required number of assorted individuals required to have the legion running to its full potential.  Not just that they were good, but that they had those positions and roles filled at all.  The legion post Chondax and during the little pogrom against the 'turncoat' commanders removed a number of their tactical officers and officials, thus leaving gaps in their organizational ranks exasperated by them being so marginally supplied during the end of the Great Crusade. 

 

I do think that the Scars may be a little bit over-specialized and as such they can look like a one-trick pony, but their advantage was never insurmountable to their opponents while their weaknesses could be capitalized upon.  Part of this is just their entire methodology in warfare: while lightning strikes and dismantling works against a lot of foes they faced, I don't think it could crack an astartes opponent in such a way that would have been required to achieve a strategic success relative to the amount of assets expended.  

 

Of course, all legions were more broad than the 40K chapter 'themes' we see, but there were definitely some deficiencies the White Scars had exploited against them, in much the same manner as they did to their early opponents. Terra is gonna be a big question for me: How does a lightning mobile tactical force get to fully utilize their best assets in primarily staged defensive positions.  I'm curious to find out if there were more sweeping positional battles than we are currently led to believe. 

[Indefragable]

@Bluntblade and @Vykes nailed it on the head.

 

I would add that the V Legion, even pre-Khan, was used to having independent commanders and a culture of relative autonomy amongst its field commands. This was a huge success in most cases, but I think worked against them as Mortarion and Eidolon were able to siege on this with bait that as a whole, the Khan could start to recognize, but each individual commander in a bubble would see as irresistible targets of opportunity.

 

The other factor was the macro objective of getting to Terra. All sides knew this was the Khan’s objective, and so the Traitors had an advantage of knowing that as long as they blocked the routes to Terra, the V could do whatever they want, but it would only be flesh wounds to the greater war effort. Any commander of any force would have a hard time when their objectives are known, but their opponents are not. Granted it was clear that the Traitors wanted Terra as well, but Loyalists would not be able to tell which forces were the main thrust and which were the rear guards etc...

 

I have to say that it’s absolutely a case of “the competence of the opponent” that puts the V in its predicament.

 

To me, Path of Heaven is the best book of the entire series in no small part because ever action and decision is logical and competent and makes sense in its context. Its like watching the World Cup finals with phenomenal play on both sidesZ

[Welcheren]

Convincingly argued, both.

 

 

 

 

So the overall conclusion is that the White Scars and their Primarch were expertly maneouvred into an unfavourable position that militated against their strenghts.

 

However - by and large - the White Scars' balance of strengths and weaknesses means that it is somewhat easier to outmove them. In other words, they are overspecialised.

[Elzender]

First, I must say I haven't read anything featuring the Scars so far, other than threads around here about the novels/FW books. However, I'd argue that any loyalist legion would end up in a similar situation, for a key reason: the traitors were prepared to face other legions in war, while the loyalists were not (at least on the initial stages).

In the specific case of the Scars, their isolation and independence probably worked against them regarding knowledge of the assets and disposition of their adversaries, as they probably did not have the same access to reports from Terra or other expeditionary fleets. Moreover, they could not rely on other legions for reinforcements or assistance as they could not ascertain what their alliegance was.

 

I don't think any other legion would have fared any better than the Scars in such a situation, but at the same time I cannot see any other legion having to face it, as none was as detached from the Imperial war structure as them.

 

This is straying from the topic, but if somebody could give me a quick answer it would be great: how did the Blood Angels learn of the Heresy, considering their first engagement was with daemons, not with traitor legions? I just wonder what would have happened if they were to find a traitor legion right as they left the Signus system, as they were probably in the most similar situation to the Scars for any of the loyalist legions.

[bluntblade]

Some BA fleets were attacked by Traitor assets - Horus set Chapters to hunt down the few expected survivors of Signus.

[b1soul]

On the WS...

 

1. I agree that the WS were one of the more specialised legions and they definitely had a strong preference to make war in the manner of their liking, sometimes to their detriment.

 

2. Yet trapped behind Traitor lines, which other loyalist legion would have fared better in the Vth's situation, faced with the task of disrupting the advance of four Traitor legions? So the WS's lighting warfare specialisation was probably a net plus under those circumstances.

 

It was a case of a competent harrying force up against an equally competent but numerically superior coalition of Traitors.

 

@ Welcheren

 

I think Path of Heaven sums it up nicely. The WS have finite tricks up their sleeve, and they simply can't beat four equally competent Traitor legions who learn from experience. The latter could suffer heavy initial losses and still destroy the former gradually via attrition.

 

Four years ago, such tactics had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive. The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain.

 

But that was four years ago. Every Legion was a living thing, gifted with commanders of infinite subtlety and tactical understanding. The Death Guard refined their fleet strategy, bringing to bear greater firepower against the Khan’s wild riders. The Iron Warriors gave their fleet enough heavy physical anti-ship protection to turn their attackers into great lumps of plasma-laced slag. The Sons of Horus did what they always did, responding with such concentrated brutality and directed discipline that the two Legions, once close in understanding and sympathy, became blood-sworn in antipathy through accumulated atrocity.

 

‘Consider our enemy,’ said Eidolon. ‘Consider his strengths, his weaknesses.’

‘The Warhawk,’ said Von Kalda.

‘None other remains. What is his position?’

‘Dispersed. Strategos record nineteen strikes in three months, thirteen of which were repulsed. The tally of losses will be hurting them. He musters, surely now, for a final assault.’

‘That would be against four Legions, and he has not the numbers to take on more than one. If I were the Khan, I would be looking for a way out.’

 

‘The Traitors outnumber us. They are four Legions to our one. So we must kill four of them for every warrior we lose, and still it will not be enough.’

 

‘I hide nothing from you – we are trapped,’ Ilya told him. ‘Warp storms block the principal routes back to the Throneworld. Four Traitor Legions are tracking us, and have closed a ring of steel around us. Every attempt we make to break this ring has failed, and our room to manoeuvre grows narrower.

 

We failed, Qin Xa’s thoughts proclaimed, matter-of-factly.

+It was an impossible task.+

I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

 

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them.

[Lucerne]

On the WS...

 

1. I agree that the WS were one of the more specialised legions and they definitely had a strong preference to make war in the manner of their liking, sometimes to their detriment.

 

2. Yet trapped behind Traitor lines, which other loyalist legion would have fared better in the Vth's situation, faced with the task of disrupting the advance of four Traitor legions? So the WS's lighting warfare specialisation was probably a net plus under those circumstances.

 

It was a case of a competent harrying force up against an equally competent but numerically superior coalition of Traitors.

 

@ Welcheren

 

I think Path of Heaven sums it up nicely. The WS have finite tricks up their sleeve, and they simply can't beat four equally competent Traitor legions who learn from experience. The latter could suffer heavy initial losses and still destroy the former gradually via attrition.

 

Four years ago, such tactics had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive. The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain.

 

But that was four years ago. Every Legion was a living thing, gifted with commanders of infinite subtlety and tactical understanding. The Death Guard refined their fleet strategy, bringing to bear greater firepower against the Khan’s wild riders. The Iron Warriors gave their fleet enough heavy physical anti-ship protection to turn their attackers into great lumps of plasma-laced slag. The Sons of Horus did what they always did, responding with such concentrated brutality and directed discipline that the two Legions, once close in understanding and sympathy, became blood-sworn in antipathy through accumulated atrocity.

 

‘Consider our enemy,’ said Eidolon. ‘Consider his strengths, his weaknesses.’

‘The Warhawk,’ said Von Kalda.

‘None other remains. What is his position?’

‘Dispersed. Strategos record nineteen strikes in three months, thirteen of which were repulsed. The tally of losses will be hurting them. He musters, surely now, for a final assault.’

‘That would be against four Legions, and he has not the numbers to take on more than one. If I were the Khan, I would be looking for a way out.’

 

‘The Traitors outnumber us. They are four Legions to our one. So we must kill four of them for every warrior we lose, and still it will not be enough.’

 

‘I hide nothing from you – we are trapped,’ Ilya told him. ‘Warp storms block the principal routes back to the Throneworld. Four Traitor Legions are tracking us, and have closed a ring of steel around us. Every attempt we make to break this ring has failed, and our room to manoeuvre grows narrower.

 

We failed, Qin Xa’s thoughts proclaimed, matter-of-factly.

+It was an impossible task.+

I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

 

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them.

..Raven Guard would have done better.

[Elzender]

Ugolino, while the Ravens would have probably been even more suited to the task due to their knack for low-profile operations, I am not sure they would have actually been able to do better than the Scars, at least on the long term. Even if at the start they could even pull off riskier attacks due to their stealth capacity, once the enemy legions became full aware of their presence, their stealth capacity would be much more difficult to employ. The Scars, on the other hand, probably relied on speed, so that even if their raids were not as stealthy, or if they were not succesful enough, they had a bigger chance on being able to retreat. Obviously, both are strategies/tactics the traitors could (and did) adapt to, but I am not sure the stealth option would have been more effective on the long term than pure speed on hit&run raids.

[b1soul]

Raven Guard might have done better (and Alpha Legion, if we're counting Traitors/pseudo-Traitors)...but that's about it.

[bluntblade]

At the end of the day a Legion is a Legion is a Legion. The Ravens and Scars would each play to their strength, but their enemies are Astartes too and with DarkMech, Titan and Traitor Army support. And increasingly, daemons.

 

You know, this is the sort of thing that would be interesting to cover in a Black Book... (sigh)

[b1soul]

Yeah, unfortunately the text of Malevolence says it is unknown what the WS do between Chondax and Terra. Hopefully, later FW writers ignore this line.

[Welcheren]

Just a quick note of appreciation to you all for your perspicacity.

[bluntblade]

Yeah, unfortunately the text of Malevolence says it is unknown what the WS do between Chondax and Terra. Hopefully, later FW writers ignore this line.

Which is really annoying, as rather than redoing Chondax they could have jumped on any of Shiban's references that weren't from PoH and used them to show the Traitors changing too.

[b1soul]

Yeah, the likes of Eidolon and the Palatine Blades wotking with the Death Guard during that period would be a fascinating force.

[bluntblade]

I was thinking mainly EC and SoH, especially the former who we haven't seen really since Massacre. Whereas the Alpha Legion at Chondax were just being sneaky again and didn't really tie into the demonic theme.