Successor idea. Opinions?

[Claws and Effect]

So I've had an idea for a Blood Angels successor kicking around in my head for a while now, and I wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

I'm going to call them the Carnadons and go with an orange and black paint scheme with the Chapter symbol simply being a tiger striped left pad.

 

Mostly Primaris with a core of Veteran Marines that serve to train the new kids (so I can still use Sanguinary Guard).

 

Their purpose, known only to Dante, is to eliminate other successor Chapters that are too far gone into the Thirst and Rage and risk the wider Imperium discovering their Flaw. They have not been called upon to do that yet, but they are ready if needed.

 

Thoughts?

[Gederas]

I think it's kind of counter to how the Blood Angels have been described. That sounds more like something the Dark Angels would have to be honest.

 

An interesting idea no less, but doesn't sound like something Dante would do/allow.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Gederas

[Panzer]

The colour scheme and badge are very unusal for a Blood Angels successor, but there's nothing wrong with that. The background you got for them sounds too much like Dark Angels wannabe's though imo. Not to mention that it's incredibly rare for whole chapters to fall to the curses so it's usually the chapters who deal with their own stuff.

Also where would their and Dantes authority start and stop? Chapters are all independent and there are some like the Flesh Tearers who appear like they have fallen to one of the curses but haven't yet or Knights of Blood which have largely fallen and got branded as renegade for that but are largely accepted by Dante?

If Dante starts going around sending his personal headhunter chapter after other chapters by his own judgement he'd quickly lose the favour of the other chapters. Keep in mind that every chapter is equal to the parent chapter and while Dante is the regent of Imperium Nihilus, the support he gets is largely based on respect.

Edited December 22, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Claws and Effect]

The color scheme and named are based on the carnadon pelt that Sanguinius wore.

 

I based the idea on Dante's initial refusal to allow the Angels Vermilion (I think) to take part in the defense of Baal, as well as the Angels Vermilion threatening to expose the Flaw to the Inquisition.

 

I would have to think that Dante, as much as he would hate to give the order, would see the destruction of a single Chapter as preferable to the risk of the censure of ALL the sons of Sanguinius.

 

We all know the Inquisition tends to knee jerk overreact to anything they see as heretical. If the Flaw was common knowledge the possibility of the entire gene line being declared Excommuncate Traitoris is real. They've done worse for less reason.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been tinkering with a darker successor known as the Blood Gargoyles. That are a more subterfuge style chapter who take on the darker aspects of the chapter.

 

There home planet's main continent goes through extreme periods of darkness. Much like the world akin to "Pitch Black" the aspirants are pulled from a feudal world where to prove their worth they must slay what they call Noiragas. A reptilianesque predator indigenous to the death world.

 

Their chapter symbol is basically the night lords symbol because it best represents an easy transfer that I could obtain in bulk.

 

There are also islands along the coasts known as the "Black Isles" which are infested with giant eel like sea creatures (very dangerous) that are hunted, and if killed are sometimes worn as cloaks as a symbol of strength.

 

There's still a lot of toying around with them. But it could allow me to field a large amount of phobos armor, if I so choose. Reiver squads are always at full strength as that is their preferred method of combat. I'm pretty excited about building them up.

 

How it might compare to the OPs army of choice is a lot different. In your head canon make them how you want! I think it would be pretty cool. Orange is hard to paint and look good. I would recommend an easier paint scheme of grey and orange rather than black. As they pop better together, you may even considered an easy transfer such as the House Cadmus blood heads or mutants skewered. House Taranas with their pegasus/steeds may also pop a bit better. Just a couple suggestions though. The more intracate things get, the quicker we lose steam on wanting to complete them!

[Claws and Effect]

Part of the idea behind the name and color scheme is that they wouldn't be obvious BA successors at first glance.

 

And their purpose would really only come into play if a successor actually gets themselves declared Excommunicate Traitoris like the Knights of Blood did.

 

Sort of their means of taking care of their own as a matter of honor. Much like Astorath executes surviving Death Company, the Carnadons (and by extension Dante) feel that if a successor falls as far as the Knights of Blood, then they need to prevent their brothers from further debasing themselves. They find no joy in the task.

[Wassa]

I think the Flesh Tearers would have something to say about this.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I'm going to call them the Carnadons

Don't you mean "CarnOdons" (emphasis mine), spelled with two "o"s?

and go with an orange and black paint scheme with the Chapter symbol simply being a tiger striped left pad.

That looks very similar to the colors of the Tiger Claws, an Astral Claws successor that joined Lufgt Huron in treason during and after the Badab War. To differentiate themselves from the traitors, how about a yellow and black paint scheme (see the Carnodon image in the Fandom article), with the Chapter symbol being two down-pointing white triangles on a red pauldron, representing the Carnodon's saber-like teeth?

Mostly Primaris with a core of Veteran Marines that serve to train the new kids (so I can still use Sanguinary Guard).

Needed: Write a profile for Primaris Sanguinary Guard, and make up a new name for the unit.

Their purpose, known only to Dante, is to eliminate other successor Chapters that are too far gone into the Thirst and Rage and risk the wider Imperium discovering their Flaw. They have not been called upon to do that yet, but they are ready if needed.

Good idea! The Carnodons should also work closely with Astorath and/or his successor as Blood Angels High Chaplain and Redeemer of the Lost.

 

By the way, what will the Carnodons do with their own Death Company members? (I had my own Blood Angels successor attach demolition charges to the breastplate of each and every Death Company member, and wrote Special Rules describing how the charges are used in suicide attacks to redeem the Death Company members. After having an entire Company turn to Khorne, and losing 800 Marines in the "penitent crusade" meant to hunt down and destroy all of the traitors, my Blood Angels successor has ZERO TOLERANCE for anyone suffering from the Black Rage, as it looks disturbingly like Khorne worship. This led to the Blood Angels High Chaplain coming to blows with that of my Chapter.)

[Claws and Effect]

Not doing yellow and black because I hate painting yellow and I'm already painting an Imperial Fists army for my son.

 

In looking at the Tiger Claws scheme, my planned scheme wouldn't be confused with it, as it will be mostly orange with black trim rather than the black fading to orange the Tiger Claws display. Your Chapter symbol suggestion gives me an idea though. I'll use something like that for Company markings on the right pad. The idea on the tiger striped pad is that each brother paints the pad himself upon receiving his Black Carapace, and each one is unique to that brother.

 

Thanks for the spelling correction. I always screw that up. It seems to me to flow better with an A.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[Charlo]

Do remember that Dante isn't defacto in charge of any new BA Successors and also probably doesn't have the Authority to found a new chapter. Only the high Lords can really do that, plus Cawl and Guilliman.

 

The idea is a little heavy, but it has legs. How about instead they hunt specifically BA traitors and other renegade marines?

 

What makes a chapter interesting too is a flaw, which could be something simple like they had a traitor contingent themselves or worked closely with a chapter that turned.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Do remember that Dante isn't defacto in charge of any new BA Successors and also probably doesn't have the Authority to found a new chapter. Only the high Lords can really do that, plus Cawl and Guilliman.

 

The idea is a little heavy, but it has legs. How about instead they hunt specifically BA traitors and other renegade marines?

Good point. Say Cawl found something interesting while studying Blood Angels gene-seed, and reported this to Guilliman. The Lord Regent recalls certain behavior his brother exhibited, which he dismissed as "outbursts of emotion" at the time, but which now seem suspicious, given what Cawl told him; he then goes to Baal to "reinforce Imperial morale and renew the fraternity between Sanguinius and Guilliman's sons" (in truth, to study what records the Blood Angels have on their Primarch).

 

Dante, reading between the lines, realizes Guilliman knows of the Blood Angels' secret shame. Instead of killing the Lord Regent to hide the truth- dooming all Sons of Sanguinius, along with the very Imperium they fought for- he confesses, and proposes the idea of founding a Blood Angels successor to police their own. Guilliman agrees, and asks the Blood Angels to second officers to the future Carnodons, to serve as the new Chapter's training cadre.

 

Warning: Ranting.

Suck it, Dark Angels! When the Lion awakens, your "Inner Circle" deserves to burn, like the traitors they are!

Edited December 23, 2019 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Lynnean]

Somehow my brain went to the carcharodons first time i read it. Edited December 23, 2019 by Lynnean

[Panzer]

Honestly that still doesn't help with the problem that all chapters are equal so one chapter going after another would raise a few eyebrows, especially when their reasons are kept secret.

Other successor chapters would become suspicious of this new chapter that's going after the ones of their bloodline and would probably assume they simply are traitors and even if they know the reasons they probably won't like or accept that there's a chapter that's allowed to wage war on any BA successor they chose to by claiming they've fallen to one of the curses. Not even the parent chapter has that kind of authority.

 

Also the Inquisition would very quickly become very suspicious of such behaviour as well. It's MUCH more conspicious than chapters dealing with cases of the curses in their chapter on their own or Astorath traveling across the galaxy. If you want to hide the exitence of the curses this is probably not the way to go.

 

Which brings me to something I've already said earlier and for which you haven't provided a solution for yet.

It happens basically never that a whole chapter falls to one of the curses, so if your chapters purpose is to hunt those they practically have no purpose at all. When the 5th company (iirc) of the Blood Angles fell to the Black Rage because of a Chaos Sorcerer it was a HUGE deal and even then the BA were able to deal with it themselves by throwing them into a battlezone and killing the few remaining ones like we have done for centuries with Death Company already.

 

(also using big names like Guilliman to justify your background is just bad form but I won't criticise that beyond mentioning it this once)

 

I may be overly critical but your idea sounds way too much like Dark Angels wannabe's and simply doesn't fit the Blood Angels and successors background imo.

Edited December 23, 2019 by sfPanzer

[SnorriSnorrison]

Don’t wanna be a negative Nancy, but I gotta concur with panzer. The background of that chapter is a little bit iffy. Dante wouldn’t have the power to create a chapter, and not the authority to command said chapter to kill brothers of the same bloodline.

 

Also, there’s some plot holes that may appear Panzer addressed already, namely big G granting Dante to “seek out” corrupted chapters sounds like Dark Angels without the traitor-part.

 

Dante’s beef with the Angels Vermillion is not that the have DC or that they have greater numbers Marines fall to the red thirst, it’s that they

do bloody sacrifices of the innocent civilian population that make a Drukhari flesh-feast look like an 11 year-old’s birthday party.

 

Furthermore, the chapter heraldry appears to be a bit simple. „Just“ a tiger striped left pad looks a bit bland when compared to the rest of the chapters of the Blood.

 

All in all, it’s your models and your idea, so go with whatever you like. My opinion would be that the background needs some work, especially the reason why the chapter exists, how it operates, why they take on the burden of Astorath by shedding the blood of their brothers but on a much bigger scale.

I agree it has some tendencies to be confused with Dark Angels and their obscure rites and secrets and dealing with those, which isn’t quite how the Blood Angels deal with their flaws. There have been witnesses of the Death Company I’m action in the Imperium already, while nobody really is supposed to know about the treason of the Dark Angels.

[tychobi]

I think it sounds cool! A secret illegal founding loyal to a cabal of space vampires whose motives are more complex than previously suspected but are really just trying to protect the legacy of the geneseed, yes please! Possibly Astoraths personal project instead of Dante? Happy painting, orange looks awesome on the table top!

[Xenith]

Sounds ok, Seth and the FT's were almost disbanded after the Trial of Blood.

 

Anly issue is the colour - you say black and orange, like a tiger, but the carnadon pelt sangy wears is white, so doesnt make sense. 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I think it sounds cool! A secret illegal founding loyal to a cabal of space vampires whose motives are more complex than previously suspected but are really just trying to protect the legacy of the geneseed, yes please! Possibly Astoraths personal project instead of Dante?

Astorath cannot do this without Dante's explicit approval- doing otherwise can easily be seen as the High Chaplain attempting to usurp the Chapter Master's authority, i.e., doing to Dante what Horus did to the Emperor, and leading to Dante brutally beating down Astorath- but you have an excellent point. Say Astorath feels the Black Rage coming upon him, despite his best efforts to suppress it; so the High Chaplain goes to the Chapter Master with his ideas on a Blood Angels successor that can do what Astorath himself may soon be unable to do; and then Dante goes to Guilliman for approval of the new Founding?

[Panzer]

So you want to basically take the wheel from GW and decide Astorath is falling to the Black Rage? Sorry but while I haven't been a fan of this chapters background so far, this is definitely the worst idea. You are better off not touching named characters beyond what's already established.

 

EDIT: typo

Edited December 23, 2019 by sfPanzer

[tychobi]

This is FANTASY FANFICTION. I think its a cool idea. Your take on what Astorath or Dante will or wont do is yours. I think this idea would add depth and nuance to either character and not muck up your cannon in the least. Carnadons Attack!

 

A dino head profile or just a fang could be another idea for icon. Then do tiger striping on the whole marine! Could do a cool effect to emulate tiger colors more by airbrushing white countershade ftom below. Hmmmm i need a repaint on some stuff myself!

[Claws and Effect]

Anly issue is the colour - you say black and orange, like a tiger, but the carnadon pelt sangy wears is white, so doesnt make sense.

Carnodons are typically tiger striped with manes. The pelt Sanguinius wore was from a unique one on a different planet than where they are native to. That one was described as looking more like a snow leopard.

[Indefragable]

1. It's Your Dudes.

2. That being said, being a rabid BA fan, I do have to say that it feels a bit off. Especially given the events of Devastation of Baal, Dante went out of his way to make amends with the various elements of Successor chapters as much as he could, and those that he could not for one reason or another were more shunned that hunted down. That's not to say it's all roses and gumdrops...there is absolutely a very dark element to the BA screaming to be explored, but in the "current" setting of 40k, the BA are as much a product of Dante's leadership as anything else and Dante has an inclusive streak to him. Not in some noblebright way, but in a the-galaxy-is-dark-enough-and-we-need-all-the-help-we-can-get sort of way.

 

3. Knowing that point #1 above cannot be overemphasized enough, in my own humble personal opinion that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, I would tweak your backstory a bit to say that in the wake of Dev of Baal, Dante took a few veterans known for self-reliance and handed over several Primaris Marines with the task of forming a force specifically tasked with seeking out all successors of the Blood Angels not already accounted for and verifying one way or another where their loyalties lie, what their current status is, etc... Due to...Zeal....the commanders then decide to interpret this command as carte blanche to wipe out anyone they feel is necessary. Originally meant to be a company or less, their first stops see them linking up with elements of the greater Indomitus Crusade, in which they....massage....their invested authority to swell their ranks with Primaris that have The Blood in them. They then symbolically decide to rename themselves the (your chapter name here) in honor of the Carnodon Sanguinius personally slew in his first battle as leader of the IX Legion, a battle which re-forged them all, Terran or Baalite, into the battle brothers they would be.

 

4. If you can swing it, I recommend looking into the fluff from FW Black Book 8: Malevolence to specifically read up on the Revenant Legion and it's practices as well as the Burning Eyes/Ofanim/Angel's Shame. The latter ties into you original idea a bit more, but where I have trouble jelling it with official lore is that--like point #2 above--it doesn't seem to fit with Dante's methodology...anything of that import he would probably said the BA itself to do. Hence why #3 above is me trying to massage things a bit to try (one way) of helping you have your cake and eat it too.

 

5. I kind of like the idea of the twin saber tooth symbology...conveniently acts as a cover for vampire teeth which also to me fits in nicely as part of the legacy of the Revenant Legion.

 

6. To tie it altogether, I kind of get a Minotaurs vibe from your original idea, and so the idea of a self-sustaining and hyper self-reliant chapter that feeds itself on the conquest of others comes together nicely with the idea of an apex predator.

 

7. Again, it's your dudes so do what you want.

[Panzer]

This is FANTASY FANFICTION. I think its a cool idea. Your take on what Astorath or Dante will or wont do is yours. I think this idea would add depth and nuance to either character and not muck up your cannon in the least. Carnadons Attack!

 

It's not about my canon (not cannon!) or whatever. He asked for feedback and I provide it. No need to defend him on his behalf.

[Claws and Effect]

The only part of the criticism I take issue with is the "They don't look like BA successors." and "That doesn't sound like something a BA successor would do."

 

That's....kind of the point. If I wanted a Chapter that looked and acted just like the Blood Angels, I'd just play Blood Angels. I've always found the notion that a successor has to be similar to the parent Chapter a little nonsensical. Especially given the number of canon Chapters that are nothing like their parent Chapter. Mantis Warriors (White Scars), Black Guard (Raven Guard), and a host of others. If they look and act like the parent Chapter, why bother with successors at all?

 

I'm going to refine their mission a bit to restrict them to only destroying other successors that have actually been declared Traitoris. With the logic being they would rather see their brothers dead than fallen to Chaos.

 

And the appearance is a deliberate choice on their part. They know they are sons of Sanguinius, Dante knows, Guilliman likely knows, and the AdMech knows. But they aren't making it obvious to anyone who looks at them.

 

As far as how they deal with their Death Company? It's actually pretty harsh. They only send their Death Company into battles where there is no chance of civilian casualties. Upon falling to the Rage a brother's armor is stripped down to bare ceramite and they are left behind upon the battle's conclusion. They value self control above almost any other trait. Any Carnodon who falls to the Rage is mourned as a brother who is already dead, because the man they were is gone. Upon death the geneseed of Death Company is not collected, because they believe that any brother in the future who receives it is destined to also fall. They would rather be under strength than use geneseed they believe will doom that initiate to fall to the Black Rage.

 

Before battle they seal their helmets in such a way that only a senior officer can remove it. That way if the Thirst overwhelms them in battle they cannot indulge in drinking any blood. Any brother who somehow manages to is assigned to guard the lost brothers' cells as penance.

 

Edit:

 

I am taking criticism into account and not just dismissing it. On reflection, a Chapter that has carte blanche to attack anyone they see as going too far is a bit much. Hence why I'm refining it to only going after Chapters that have been officially declared as traitors.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[Indefragable]

The only part of the criticism I take issue with is the "They don't look like BA successors." and "That doesn't sound like something a BA successor would do."

 

That's....kind of the point. If I wanted a Chapter that looked and acted just like the Blood Angels, I'd just play Blood Angels. I've always found the notion that a successor has to be similar to the parent Chapter a little nonsensical. Especially given the number of canon Chapters that are nothing like their parent Chapter. Mantis Warriors (White Scars), Black Guard (Raven Guard), and a host of others. If they look and act like the parent Chapter, why bother with successors at all?

 

I'm going to refine their mission a bit to restrict them to only destroying other successors that have actually been declared Traitoris. With the logic being they would rather see their brothers dead than fallen to Chaos.

 

And the appearance is a deliberate choice on their part. They know they are sons of Sanguinius, Dante knows, Guilliman likely knows, and the AdMech knows. But they aren't making it obvious to anyone who looks at them.

 

As far as how they deal with their Death Company? It's actually pretty harsh. They only send their Death Company into battles where there is no chance of civilian casualties. Upon falling to the Rage a brother's armor is stripped down to bare ceramite and they are left behind upon the battle's conclusion. They value self control above almost any other trait. Any Carnodon who falls to the Rage is mourned as a brother who has been lost. Upon death the geneseed of Death Company is not collected, because they believe that any brother in the future who receives it is destined to also fall.

Yea, dude, you can do what you want. And I agree that Succesors do not, nor should not, always equal their parent chapter.

 

Where my minor criticism comes from is a bit more with how the parent chapter would interact with them, especially at the beginning. Your dudes can do whatever you want, but my own offering to this thread was an attempt to massage things a bit to get (IMHO) a bit more realistic* relationship with Dante et al and that is essentially by tying things to the past a bit more and having a case of how they execute their orders in a RAW vs RAI manner, if you will.

 

Sounds like a fun project overall and will certainly add some color (literally and figuratively) to the stable of BA Successors!

 

*the irony of using that word in the 40k setting is not lost

[Panzer]

Yeah that's why I said in my first post it's nothing bad that they look unusual. And my "That doesn't sound like something a BA successor would do." critique is mostly more a "That doesn't sound plausible for any chapter."

Like in a more general "doesn't fit into the setting" sense and not in a "BA successors shouldn't be like that" sense. It's already extremely weird for DA to get away with it all the time and you see people raising eyebrows whenever GW does it in a DA story. However it's there and so we can accept it as "well, it's a DA thing I guess" but that also means doubling down on it but with another chapter feels just even less right.

 

I'm all for successor chapters being different than their parent chapter. My own BA successors are heavily knightly themed as well which one would expect from DA or BT instead of BA. However it really should fit plausibly into the setting and having a chapter created to hunt down other loyal chapters on their own authority to hide something really doesn't fit that criterion in my eyes.

 

Having them wait for those chapters to get declared traitors would take care of that and smooth out most problems I'd have with the concept.

 

 

-----------------------

 

 

Back to something more constructive.

Did you think about the heraldry already? Will they use the same heraldry the parent chapter uses (differently coloured helmets for different battlefield roles) or the standard Codex Astartes heraldry or something else?

My Order of Baal Marines for example use the parent chapter heraldry with differently colored helmets but instead of having black pauldrons for the sergeants they have black helmets for the sergeants and instead of having the squad designation on the kneepad they all are wearing these small shields on their left pauldron for that purpose.

 

What kind of deployment do they prefer? General all purpose? A focus on Jump Pack assault? Perhaps a focus on long ranged siege warfare? Lots of infantry trusting in their power armour or rather a mechanised approach with a small but well protected amount of infantry?

 

In any case they should probably have about as much a focus on arts and such stuff like other chapters of the bloodline since it's a common believe that it helps calm the curses and (Darkness in the Blood spoiler):

which also got confirmed in the new Darkness in the Blood novel, so a BA successor not creating art etc. should have a larger amount of brothers falling to the Black Rage

Edited December 23, 2019 by sfPanzer