Road to CT Legacy ITC - 2000k

[Morticon]

Hey all. 

So, i'll be heading home to SA soon and taking part in the ITC tourney happening there. 

I'll be taking the RG as my last outing with them for a while (at which point I'll head back to toughing it out in tournies with my BA). 


I'm looking at this currently: 

Chaplain Dread - TLLC

Libby - bike, axe

Smash Cap - TH, SS, JP

Phobos Cap.  

 

10x Intercessors - stalkers

5x Intercessors - Auto-bolts, fist. 

2x 5 Incursors 

2x 5 Sniper Scouts

 

1x 10 VanVets -5fist, 8 shields

1x 4 Assault Centurians - Flmr/HB

 

1x Contemptor Mortis Dread - quad las

1x 3 Eliminators

1x Thunderfire Cannon
 

1x Impulsor - (missile)
 

***************

 

Will probably take Long Range and Artisans for this build. 

I know I'm going to miss the additional Las-dread, and truth be told, I can fit him in.  So.....I still may. 
I'm nervous using the Cents - despite knowing what they can do, I hate having so many points invested in so few (slow) models.  

 

[Morticon]

I'll fill you all in on the batreps as I go along.  

I'm still likely to change this up a bit, but there are a few things that I think will have to stay. 

[Morticon]

Got a playtest in with this list today: 

 

Chaplain Dread - Plasma

Libby - JP, Axe

Smash Cap - TH, SS, JP

Phobos Cap.  

 

10x Intercessors - stalkers

5x Intercessors - Auto-bolts, fist. 

2x 5 Incursors 

2x 5 Sniper Scouts

 

1x 8 VanVets -5fist, 8 shields

1x 3 Assault Centurians - Flmr/HB
1x 3 Assault Cents - 2MG, 1Flmr/HB

 

2x Contemptor Mortis Dread - quad las

1x 3 Eliminators

 

**********

I lose the Tfire and some Vanvets for another squad of Cents.  I'm going to be playtesting without Long Range marksmen, because as much as the drop and burn is good, I dont like that im taking the entire doctrine for one/two units.  With my aggressive playstyle, Whirlwind of Rage is amazing.  

I played vs a funky Death Guard list.  Little bit of a beer n' pretzel game...but it was over in turn 3 before the main units (2 cents and 10 Intercessors ) even dropped.  

I must learn to be more cagey with the Incursors, as I play them a little to much like their BA counter parts.  Whirlwind on them is great though. 

[Dracos]

I'm excited to see how this play test for you. I'm but surprised when going a Successor route you don't have Master Artisans  locked in and testing for it's best compliment to your style. 

[Entry1]

I think I would agree with the whirlwind of rage for that style of list over the long range, it’s a pretty up in your face type of army. I also think that would synergise better with the incursors and big squads. What are your thoughts for adding a chapter master to fish for those sides with the cents and I cursors? Add the Chaplain ability to give extra hits on sixes and that would be some serious damage output.

 

I’m trying to decide between incursors and infiltrators and keep landing on infiltrators for the anti deep strike. It seems like blood angels, deep striking chaos, mirror matches along with white scars out flankers are becoming very prevalent in the meta. They seem likethey would give you some good board control. Add in the auspex scan from the cents and that will be quite a deterrent as well. What are your thoughts? Do you ever wish you had the infiltrators for that reason?

 

Just throwing ideas out there for discussion and some brain storming. It sounds like you have an aggressive play style that works for you and you would have some valuable experiences to share.

 

Brian

[Morticon]

I'm excited to see how this play test for you. I'm but surprised when going a Successor route you don't have Master Artisans  locked in and testing for it's best compliment to your style. 

 

Master Artisans is DEFS locked in.  TBH, its too broken for SM. Fine for Orkies, but broken for us.  

 

The debate is more about the second Tactic. 

 

I think I would agree with the whirlwind of rage for that style of list over the long range, it’s a pretty up in your face type of army. I also think that would synergise better with the incursors and big squads. What are your thoughts for adding a chapter master to fish for those sides with the cents and I cursors? Add the Chaplain ability to give extra hits on sixes and that would be some serious damage output.

 

I’m trying to decide between incursors and infiltrators and keep landing on infiltrators for the anti deep strike. It seems like blood angels, deep striking chaos, mirror matches along with white scars out flankers are becoming very prevalent in the meta. They seem likethey would give you some good board control. Add in the auspex scan from the cents and that will be quite a deterrent as well. What are your thoughts? Do you ever wish you had the infiltrators for that reason?

 

Just throwing ideas out there for discussion and some brain storming. It sounds like you have an aggressive play style that works for you and you would have some valuable experiences to share.

 

Brian

 

 

Interesting you bring up the Infiltrators!!!  Latest variation has actually worked them in for EXACTLY the relevant points you mentioned.   I would love to work in a Chapter Master, but most of the time I play him similarly to the BA "fire-and-forget" style magic missile.  I could work him a little more intelligently than that, but I find that with ambush + extras he fills the role of killing key units before they make a big in game difference.  Also, Im SUPER tight for CP, and the 2CP burn will hurt. 

 

FYI, I'm looking at this currently: 

 

Whirlwind/Artisans:

 

Chaplain - 2CCW.  (Litany of Hate, Canticle of Hate) 

Phobos Captain -

Smash Captain - JP, hammer, shield

Libby - JP

 

9x Intercessors - stalkers,grenade

5x Infiltrators

1x 5 Incursors - Mine

1x 5 Scouts

2x 5 Sniper Scouts

 

1x 8 VanVets -5fist, 8 shields

1x 3 Assault Centurians - Flmr/HB

1x 3 Assault Cents - 2MG, 1Flmr/HB

 

2x Contemptor Mortis Dread - quad las

1x 3 Eliminators

[Dracos]

Just to clarify, you're playing a Double Battalion list, correct?

[Morticon]

Yessir! 

Double batt.  

[Morticon]

Advice: 

So, Im seriously contemplating swapping the jump libby out for a Phobos Libby.  

The reasons are that the inclusion of phobos units into my list means that Phobos powers really synergize well.  

Shrouding

Temporal Corridor 
Tenebrous Curse and

Mind Raid 

...are all fantastic powers with great utility.

 

The other boon is that I can make him a Chief Librarian and get 3 of those powers.   Additionally, I'll always take the tomb of Malcador so that I can take Shadowstep.  


Now, this would be a no-brainer, except that in small local tournaments, you know the players. I know there will be two players with Grotesque-spam lists- and I was hoping to help take them out with nullzone, given that theyre just impossibly difficult to deal with otherwise.   

The issue here, is that I will literally be taking nullzone for those players.  Theyre the top players locally, so if I intend on doing well, I will see them. 


The only other issue is that the JP lib gives me a little more tactical flexibility in striking in and using powers - giving him some protection.  The Shadowstep drop is a tactic used for this,  where the libby deploys in turn 2, after the Chappy has dropped Canticle of Hate, then casts shadowstep, and then the redeploy buffs all my guys to charge. 

What are your thoughts? 

 

 

 

[Dracos]

Yes I’d go with the Phobos Libby

Drop Just enough Intercessors for second unit of Eliminators

 

And I’d either go two units if Incursors or Infiltrators not mix and match. Redundancy is so very important when devising a battle plan. Nothing worse than having a unit die T1 and not have a back up for that mission objective.

[Morticon]

Dracos, 

 

Dude!! Thanks so much for the thoughts!!!  

I REALLY like the idea of two Eliminators instead of more Stalkers - but I dont have the models at the moment. 

 

Here's my thinking, also....tell me where you see some flaws or can offer some other thoughts: 

1. Stalkers. 

 

My go to strat is two fold. 

Either to hide them behind cover, and then use Ambush to reposition and drop target sighted to quick nuke a key character target. 

Alternatively, I will often put them in reserve, and drop them turn 2 when Docs are active and then also drop target sighted to nuke whoever.  
When theyre on the board, theyre the softer and squishier target.  
This is the concern I have for Elims. If theyre there, they'll be targeted.  Also, if theyre on the board, they're stuck there and cant react as well. 

What your thoughts there? 

2.  Incursors / Infiltrators. 

 

I think redundancy is great.  I think doubling down on one or the other definitely has it's advantages, but I feel limits my choices. 
The idea of having a mine available and then boobytrapping an objective on top of that is so so appealing.  Add to this Whirlwind + Incursor combat blade ability makes their charge and fighting capacity formidable - where the infiltrators really just act as a deterrent and nothing more. BUT, against certain armies like orks that will rely on a jump or redploying angels or anything like that....i think it's a great little tool box.  

 

Also...tell me more about why you'd go with the Phobos Lib!! 






 

[Claws and Effect]

Go with 2 units of Eliminators and stick them somewhere they'll be difficult to target without exposing units to fire from other things.

 

Remember they don't really need LOS to be effective, they just like to have it for the better rounds for their guns.

[Dracos]

I think you shouldn’t worry about the Intercessors first few turns. Unless they are the only thing to shoot, your opponent is going to have them about 8th or 10th on his “to do” list. No one sweats Intercessors over Centurions and Veterans :) With what you have I would use them to tag team (and screen?) with the Eliminators to delete softer buffing command targets if possible in first couple Turns. Let the Scouts take the brunt of the opponents first set of attacks.

 

I assume you have a plan for ObSec though. The Stalkers are for backfield ObJectives and the Phobos for midfield? It’s a good combo with Scouts as screens and Centurions grabbing the large portion of your opponents fired power. Should score points easy enough first two turns at least.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Dracos

[Entry1]

I really enjoy using my Phobos Librarian for the deployment tricks, the Phobos Powers and the added durability esp with all the Eliminators and occasional Vindicare running around.   I think equipping him with the Reliquary of Gathalamor and deploying him up the field for Psychic defense is nice, add in the extra command point for the Chief Librarian giving him two denies could be helpful. At that range his Psychic Hood and relic would synergize well together ultimately giving you a -2 to deny if they end up passing their test.  At a minimum he could be quite a deterrent causing your opponent to second guess decisions or spend added time avoiding the aura. At times I don't think we give enough credit to adding game "stressers" to our opponent which eats up clock time and valuable "brain power" esp when playing in a tournament setting.  

 

I personally also like the Mind Raid power granted its only 1 mortal wound but it looks like you can use it to snipe a character and get back those much needed command points.  That chip of damage could really help in the long run with all the snipers we are capable of fielding.  The Tenebrous Curse is great for locking down units and would give you the utility of the TFC your missing from your list and it is pretty easy to cast on a 6.  Temporal is great esp if you use the Tome of Malcador and you have Shadowstep to get you in casting range of a unit for a last minute objective grab. Maybe string the squad out and then replace them with Shadow Step Libby to hold objective while troops run to another?  I could see that being useful if you take ground control, behind enemy lines or recon as a secondary.   

 

I'm not completely sold on Shrouding but in the right circumstances I'm sure it could really add some defensive options.  Giving up Nullzone and Might of Heroes is definitely a major downside but it seems like Nullzone is a big risk-big reward type of play and I always err on the side of caution and consistency but that's more of my play style and mindset.  So thasts a decision you'll have to make depending on your play style.  

 

On an unrelated note is the base size for the mortal wound mine of the Incursors smaller the the circumference of your typical objective?  A savvy player could easily avoid it if that was the case, I think you measure from the edge of the objective in ITC.  So you could save yourself the points, just something to think about.    

 

Hope this helps, Good Luck!!

 

Brian 

[Morticon]

Those are some great observations, thank you for that.  Especially about the mine.   

I think if i was going into the tournament blind, or it was a bigger tournament, I would totally take the Phobos Lib.

 

The issue for me is that I know players in the scene, and know what they're likely to field and furthermore KNOW that if I do well, I will see them.  Because of this, I now feel tied to nullzone. .  
 

 

 

I had a practice game last night.  Learned a lot.  I think if i had more time and models, I would do what Dracos suggested and go all infiltrators - as much as I like Whirlwind Incursors -theyre not BA, and the infiltrators seem to do more. 

 

I also think I would go with the additional Elims over the chunky stalker squad.  I rarely have 3 CP to burn, and think that this may be a little bit of a trap - especially if im deploying them in reserve and coming on later. 

[Dracos]

Knowing your meta that well is and building around it is absolutely the thing to do. It on't help in the moment, but refining your units as you get more experience (not to mention the time and money to add them) will be very rewarding as you sharpen your blade's steel :)

[Entry1]

Knowing your meta that well is and building around it is absolutely the thing to do. It on't help in the moment, but refining your units as you get more experience (not to mention the time and money to add them) will be very rewarding as you sharpen your blade's steel

 

Yeah I completely agree, if you know what your facing and what will work then go that route you cant go wrong.  That is literally one of the basic principles of the Art of War.  Also I think we have talked about the tough choice of Infiltrators Vs. Incursors on a different post and while I love the Incursors the "anti" deep strike ability just brings so much to the table in the current meta.  The Incursors have better damage output IMHO but I feel like they need more support with stratagems and characters.  While the Infiltrators seem to operate independently and still have tactical value minus the fact they wont end up being a very lethal or a threatening unit but that is perfect for what we're using them for and you have plenty of other units to burn things down. 

 

And as far as Eliminators they are in every list and every faction for a reason, they are just so efficient these days you cant go wrong. Plus the models are about as tactiCOOL as it gets!!  Also I've been running the full squad of Intercessors with the bolt rifles and either fist or hammer and love them .  I will usually camp a 5 man squad of Stalkers on an objective  and hide out, the 3 command points is just so pricey for RG I don't bother building for the stratagem esp when we have other sniper options.  I would rather save the three CP to fight again with Cents/Vanguard for the board control and tactical options. 

[Morticon]

I think im seeing that more and more with the Infiltrators for RG.  I think its their appeal in my BA lists that has me clinging to them.  If i had to do this again, I think Id drop the Intercessors to 5man, pick up 3 more Elims and then go 2x Infiltrators. 

Sadly, no models this time round, and....well...list is now submitted!!! 

Stay tuned for practice games and then the tourney in 2 weeks!

[Morticon]

I've had 2 practice games this weekend - both REALLY good in terms of highlighting very big problems with my list. 

First game was vs DA.  We play with DA access to the same basic marine strats, litanies and doctrines - which gives them a nice little buff.  

The first game was super tight, going 3-3 each turn for the two turns.  When the cents came in though, things obviously changed.  I failed to get off the Shadow-Hate combo for 4 turns, and this REALLY influenced my game.  So much so, that vs. certain armies (especially more static shooty ones) I will likely require the upgrade and WLT for the Chief Librarian for the +1.  7 is just too much of a gamble. 

 

The other thing, as noticed already, Incursors are not what I wanted them to be.  I'm almost always getting off the double booby-trap, which is great, but as noted already, I think infiltrators would be better over-all.  This may prove otherwise in a marine heavy meta.  So, i'll have to see. 

The game ended with an eventual comfortable win over the DA, despite early pressure. 


Game two was  vs "new" Nids + a small GSC faction - the inclusion of GSC really hampers the alpha strike ability of the army.  Like, monstrously.  This allowed for his hiveguard to stay hidden and just lay down massive fire each turn - rerolling ones, with exploding 6s.  This took out 2 squads of centurians as well as 2 scout squads, some infiltrators and a phobos Captain.  Devastating. 

 

Shadow-Hate once again failed to go off for two turns, influencing my game greatly.   I wanted to test out an idea with this particular mission, placing my "home" objective away from my castle.  This allowed me to play from two sides, but in the end was a terrible, terrible tactical decision as it got him score more and the bonus for 3 rounds and also prevented my from getting score 1 for 3 turns - maybe 4 I think.  This alone would have swung the game tightly back in my favour, as by turn 6 he had nothing left except 2 Zoanthropes and his Hiveguard, while my Chaplain Dread was in the line. 

 

My other huge tactical error was allowing an army like that, that had great counter/deepstrike options to go 2nd.  And also in that particular mission.  I think I really need to go second in it.  Either of those things (the objective placement or going 2nd) would have changed the outcome. 

Good learning experience. 

[Morticon]

Played a DISGUSTING Space Wolves list last night and got trashed. 

Was up against this:

 

Bjorn - twin las

Njal 

Iron Priest (armour of Russ)

Arjac

 

5x Infiltrators

5x Stalker  Inters

5x Stalker  Inters

 

Contemptor Mortis  - twin las

Ven Dread - shield/axe

Ven Dread - shield/axe

 

3x Elims

3x Elims

Leviathan (storm)

Leviathan (storm)

 

 

****


Overall, I'm just not happy with my list and I think I removed so much of the really cool synergy that worked with my Hong Kong ITC winning RG tournament list.  
 

Whirlwind + Chaplain rerolls made my units really, really solid.  The trade out for Long Range i feel was almost necessary in this list, but it has left me without much to work with beyond that, and means that my tactics rely entirely on the centurions to do ALL the heavy lifting. 

 

The Shadow-hate combo worked first time this time round, but targets were limited and split forces.  I deeply regret going all combat with the Chap dread- he should have had a las - or at bare minimum a heavy plasma cannon so that he could contribute from turn one.  Poor poor playtesting on my part led to that decision. 

Part of me is thinking that I need to come down EXCEPTIONALLY hard on one flank, with everything. 

 

Dealing with two levvies was ROUGH though...(and we allowed Doctrines + basic SM strats for the wolves - since theyre likely to be coming anyway). 

 

I also used 4 CP (wisdom on my dread + 3 CP for Target sighted) to try snipe his Iron Priest.  Hitting on 2s rerolling and wounding on 3s I got precisely one wound from 6 guys - which was saved.  Was so bleak. More and more, i'm finding that Target Sighted is a trap ><; 
 

All in all, i need a lot more practice with this list, but have realised that its hugely sub optimal.  

[Dracos]

If you post your most recent vrsion of the list / or the one your thinking of going to I'd be happy toss a couple thoughts your way.

[Morticon]

Chaplain - 2CCW.  (Litany of Hate, Canticle of Hate) 

Phobos Captain -

Smash Captain - JP, hammer, shield

Libby - JP

 

9x Intercessors - stalkers,grenade

5x Infiltrators

1x 5 Incursors - Mine

1x 5 Scouts

2x 5 Sniper Scouts

 

1x 8 VanVets -5fist, 8 shields

1x 3 Assault Centurians - Flmr/HB
1x 3 Assault Cents - 2MG, 1Flmr/HB

 

2x Contemptor Mortis Dread - quad las

1x 3 Eliminators


Posted above! This but with Long Range and Artisans. 


Sadly, list submission was 6 days ago.  So - i'm locked in. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Morticon

[Entry1]

I know its too late now, but I am dumping my Libby from the list too once LVO is over.  I am locked into my list as well so I know the frustration. He just feels too high risk-high reward, I love the Shadowstep Power but over the last 6 games its activated less then a handful of times.  I managed to redeploy my Smash Captain to destroy a Knight which was pivotal but a 50% success rate then worrying about making the charge just seems like too many moving parts.  Additionally, you get a enemy psycher who has a moderate chance of denying just seems like there are too many points of failure. 

 

My Chaplain with Jump Pack has been my utility MVP and giving him Master of Ambush really helps get him where I need him.  I took the Mortal Wound Power against Eldar who were pumping out 20 MW a turn and it really made a big difference. I also think spending the extra command point to get the Chaplin two Litanies really comes in handy esp because you can pick the both the Stratagems and Litanies pre-game in ITC the Format.  

 

As far as the Intercessors go they have done serious work for me but I have mine said up as a 10 man squad to take objectives with rapid fire CQB and close combat (w/Thammer)  and the other 5 man with Stalkers that hold objectives.  These guys have been great while Infiltrators/Incursors are great for scoring "stand here" objectives (recon, behind enemy lines, engineers etc.)  I used the Sniper Stratagem when it first arrived in Vigilus for 2 CP and never managed to have much success with it.  These are just my observations and I don't have a lot of gaming experience so take it with a grain of salt.   But at the same time I hope it was helpful.  Good luck at your tournament, you always seem to find a way to pull it out.  

 

Brian 

[duz_]

Just take the yellow card hit and change your list you have 2 to burn before it matters :lol:

[Morticon]

 He just feels too high risk-high reward, I love the Shadowstep Power but over the last 6 games its activated less then a handful of times.  .... but a 50% success rate then worrying about making the charge just seems like too many moving parts.  Additionally, you get a enemy psycher who has a moderate chance of denying just seems like there are too many points of failure. 

 

This is exactly the issue I'm having.  On top of this, I've gone Long Range Marksmen instead of Whirlwind for the Centurians, and as a result my combat has suffered.  I realised that the reason my HK list did so well was because I was using my Jump Chap with rerolls to hit - which coupled with Whirlwind is amazing. NI just feel i've designed a really inefficient list in this regard. 

 

 

My Chaplain with Jump Pack has been my utility MVP and giving him Master of Ambush really helps get him where I need him. 

I also think spending the extra command point to get the Chaplin two Litanies really comes in handy esp because you can pick the both the Stratagems and Litanies pre-game in ITC the Format.  

 

I'm already missing this guy.  I think if I had a jump chap, the double litany/reroll upgrade would have been a given - sadly my Chappy Dread doesnt have that option.

 

As far as the Intercessors go they have done serious work for me but I have mine said up as a 10 man squad to take objectives with rapid fire CQB and close combat (w/Thammer)  and the other 5 man with Stalkers that hold objectives.  These guys have been great while Infiltrators/Incursors are great for scoring "stand here" objectives (recon, behind enemy lines, engineers etc.) 

 

I had a squad of 10 stalkers and a squad of 9 auto-bolt with fist in my last list.  Another change I foolishly made. 

 

 Good luck at your tournament, you always seem to find a way to pull it out.  

 

Cheers man!! Appreciate it.  I'll defs give them a run for their money. Another benefit is that no-one knows RG back home, so there will be some shenanigans pulled!