Tactica: Beating Riptide(s) [?]

[L30n1d4s]

While Space Marines are definitely one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) faction since the release of their new codex, Tau have been doing quite well in the competitive scene lately and have won several tournaments.... well, I should actually amend that a bit.... a very specific build of Tau has been doing very well, based around triple Riptides, a number of supporting characters/small units, and TONS of Drones (mainly Shield Drones, but ML Drones in there as well).

 

 

So, as I see it, the Riptides are inherently mobile (Fly, 12" move), dangerous (usually 18 x S6 AP-2 Dmg2 shots when the Nova Charge), and pretty durable (T7, 14W, 2+/5++, can boost up to a 3++ with Nova Charge). What really puts them over the top, however, is all of the Drones and the 2+ Savior Protocols... basically, once a Riptide is wounded in shooting or close combat (but before it makes any saves), it can "bounce" wounds to Drone units within 3" as Mortal Wounds (and Shield Drones have a 5+++, so they have a 1/3 chance of ignoring even these). This means that a Lascannon shot, with D6 Dmg, or a Dmg 3 Thunder Hammer, can be reliably "negated" for the loss of a single Drone.

 

 

So, how to deal them? That is the question that made me want to start this thread and ask other Astartes players how they are dealing with Triple Riptides lists?

 

 

From my own looking at the problem, what I have come up with so far is that there are basically 3 major options for a Space Marine player --

 

1) Volume of Fire on the Riptide/Drones -- Basically, just drench the Riptides with attacks (i.e. double-shooting Aggressors, Vanguard Vets with double Chainswords, multiple DSing Assault Bolter Inceptors, etc. etc.) to force enough MWs to kill off all of the Drones within 3", in turn leaving the Riptides "naked" against the rest of your anti-tank shooting. NOTE: If your Tau opponent has tightly clustered lots of little Drone units, this might be one of the few times to consider spending 3CP on Orbital Bombardment to potentially kill off a lot of Drones at once.

 

2) By-passing the "Savior Protocols" defenses -- So, MWs inflicted on the Riptide as a result of a to Wound roll can be "Look Out, Sired!" (did I just date myself there a little bit ) onto the nearby Drones, but per the recent GW FAQ, MWs generated BEFORE the to wound roll cannot be shrugged off via Savior Protocols. So, if you have a way to generate a lot of MWs "pre-wounding" (i.e. you need 14 to kill a Riptide), then you could take them out this way. Double-shooting Devastator/Armorium Cherub "Hellfire Shells" and "Flak Missile" could knock off as many 12 MWs if you roll hot, and the "Hunter-Slayer Missile" Strat from a Repulsor can chip in another D3 MWs, but with average rolls you are only getting a Riptide down to 4W even with all three of these Strats. Smite can only hit the nearest unit (so usually Drones or Fire Warrior screens) and other Psychic Powers usually only do a max of D3 MWs on the Riptide.

 

Perhaps if you combine enough of these, you can bring a Riptide down, but it will still be uphill sledding, so to speak. One idea I thought of was a Salamander Librarian with Burning Fists power, as many attacks as you can give him from Relics, WL Traits, etc. and "Honor the Chapter" to fight twice.... with average rolls (he inflicts a MW with every hit he makes in close combat) and fighting twice, he should be able to kill a Riptide in a single Fight phase, but the problem is reliably getting him there, especially since Salamander do not have any "charge enhancement" abilities available to them outside of re-roll the charge from the Imperium's Sword WL Trait.

 

3) Finally, the "Neutralization" method -- By this, I mean either making the Riptides unable to really threaten your army (i.e. different -1 to Hit Strats and Psychic Powers to bring down its BS)or grabbing them in close combat with a "Master of Snares" White Scars warlord or allied Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a similar ability (he can ride in on a friendly SM Drop Pod or catch a ride in one of your vehicles). Alternately, you can use your own maneuvering, Reserving, terrain, Strats, Psychic Powers, etc. etc. to mitigate the Riptide shooting to the point that you can just ignore them, kill the rest of their army, seize objectives, and set up like a "Patient Hunter" for the "Killing Blow" late in the game (i.e. you "Kauyon" them until you "Mont'Ka" them, in Tau-speak )

 

 

As you can see, none of the solutions I am offering here are full-proof by any means, so I am curious what other Brethren here on the forum have figure out to deal with all of this?

 

 

What has worked for you all? Anything you could share with the rest of us to find success against the Tripletide menace in the current meta?

Edited December 29, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[chapter master 454]

Some things to remember.

 

That list is in someways preying upon ITC rules such as terrain layout which ensures they can hide their drones out of LoS and is instead playing grinder style, not Alpha Strike. We are talking a list that will have 3 riptides set-up camp in the middle of the board and for 6 turns fire at you with little to no impediment due to fly keyword. They are mighty, fast and durable.

 

However like all Tau, they lack Ballistic skill on their most seasoned, well trained, hardened, veteran men piloting super expensive, hard to make battlesuits (It is even pointed to be a Shas'vre, above sergeant but below lieutenant I believe for us marines). Hitting on 4s is what will suck for them most and that is where you need to kick the struts from underneath them, get rid of the markerlights (since we are talking high tier here, you do have the standard pocket eliminator detachment) and then from there you want to not let yourself get suckered in by "easy kill" units.

Another factor in the success was the fact the drones weren't one big blob. While a good majority were found in the larger squads, the remaining large grouping were found in all the 2 drone squads brought along by other units. These squads are deceptively annoying and without question a big deal. They prevent any real form of concentrated fire succeeding due to needing to spilt fire between so many units and even then, good luck with that since they do have a 4++ and 5+++. These units were another point of tactical prowess as apparently some of his opponents were baited into taking butcher's bill, at that point he just took all the small drone squads, sat them at the back/out of line of sight and laughed as one of the opponents secondaries was nigh on impossible to achieve (another element to his grinder plan).

 

So the begged question is how do you deal with this list? By all accounts it is a struggle to find a good answer just like flyer spam but this army does have some issues however it requires some tech choices really. First, you need to find a way of preventing overwatch by any means. Raven Guard, Blood Angels and to a minor point to near not really, inquisitors can offer this. Being able to charge without Overwatch is a big worry for Tau, as despite having fly the actual list didn't put target locks on the riptides. That would force a -1 penalty for firing, take that where you can. Just remember, if they do get scared they can switch to 3++ save mode just in case and again, losing the shots may suck but they are here for the war, not the battle (ironic...).

 

Consider trying to work the body here, go for the softer targets like fire warriors, pathfinders and the ilk. Those units tend to be winning objectives and not the riptides mostly so just play the mission there. I know it is hard but consider this like facing old necrons: IGNORE the monolith at all costs. No...even the melta goes into fire warriors! Unless it has zero other targets, it goes into anything but riptides!

 

Some key defence points and units to consider:

AP2 on the HBC is a big selling point when it has an ATS. It will shred most marine units with impunity, even land raiders however some options can be used. If we were deathwatch, storm shields would be the god send here. The troopers would be able to take fire far more effectively and the return from storm bolters would see most of their troopers wiped unless shield drones give their lives for them. Sadly, we aren't deathwatch so only option there is vanguard vets...that ain't the best option and neither are the OG thicc boys with hammers and shields. Centurions are an option but be wary, my testing with them in shoot outs with riptides is very dicey. They take a licking, but not 3 turns worth and they can be kited fairly easily.

One thing I have found is kicking out their character support is by far one of the most painful things they can have happen. The lack of reliable markerlights really hampers DPS.

Also, don't forget we do have trans-human physiology which can help take those 3+ to wound to 4+, can be a deal breaker I find on centurions.

 

You want to be fast and shooty, not fast and charge imo. Helps avoid overwatch and we have 3+ in shooting by default unlike them. Deep striking units can help here, get into position and threaten key positions as the riptides generally want to get forward to hold middle. If they castle then really its just a case of dog-piling them after a turn or 2 of objective claiming.

 

If you do face Triptide in an ITC format, don't go for killing objectives that focus the riptides. It will sink you. Instead, force a contest of the middle objectives such as recon, king of the hill and engineers. While the riptides are potent, the rest of their army is fairly lacklustre at actually getting work done so bullying units out of recon and king of the hill should be fairly easy. Engineers can easily be played on as it could force them to consider wasting their time on lesser units such as a far squad of scouts.

Just make it so there are always more targets than guns available. Drones are weak in combat as well so take advantage if you get the chance.

 

Again, it can be very easy to forget that there is another 1200 odd points behind those 3 riptides. They can't win by themselves so instead of fighting the thing they are built to protect, go after the foundations instead of the castle. It may not be as glorious or incredible, but no castle stands on pillars of salt and sand! 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My main tactic is target the drones first with ranged weapons. It’s gonna be hard to get into smite range which will probably end bad anyways. If it’s ITC focus on kill more and hold more. Select secondaries such as killing their commanders and possibly recon. Edited December 29, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Happy-inquisitor]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here.

 

This list is not going around winning tournaments. A couple of exceptional players are winning tournaments with this list.

 

Outside of those players, it is an OK list which you just need to hold back your blood-lust for quick kills and play the mission to beat. Tau overall are almost exactly on 50% win percentage which is *way* short of marines percentages so I think the only problem players are having here is failing to adjust to a target that won't just fold immediately when the fantastic firepower of a Codex 2.0 marine army cuts loose.

 

To learn how to beat those players I think you need to study them more than the list. Fortunately for the rest of us there are now a number of streamed games which they have played which you can view. Ultimately you need to understand how they manage to achieve the mission well enough to win with a list that is good at surviving but which few other Tau players have managed to get to play well enough in the missions to pull out the tournament wins.

[Panzer]

Well when it comes to Riptides the target priority is at least somewhat easy compared to if you'd shoot against other suits. Everything anti-infantry into the Drones first, they die about as fast as a Space Marine (which is pretty fast) and once they are gone the anti-tank into the Riptides. If there are still Drones left after your anti-infantry shooting is done and no better targets for your anti-tank you have no other option than to gamble on the T'au player not making his 2+ Saviour Protocol rule of course.

 

Also consider units that don't require LoS so you can shoot Drones hiding behind terrain.

 

In the end however, since the Drones don't care about quality of shots your only real option is quantity of shots. There's no other way around it. Applying Mortal wounds directly to the Riptide technically works but other than the occasional 1 Mortal wound we don't really have the sources for that so practically it's not really an option.

 

That's for the direct approach.
Indirectly you can take a bunch of Eliminators and such to get rid of the Markerlight characters so they lose access to re-rolls, cover ignore, and potential +1 to hit. Just be aware that Fireblades are comparably tough for a T3 model with their W5 Sv4+ and that the T'au player can still boost his shooting for at least two rounds via using the Commander ability that lets units in 6" re-roll all failed hit rolls once per game (a second time when using Shadowsun), Shadowsuns own drone (a unit within 12" can re-roll hit rolls of 1s), the Command-and-Control Node Stratagem that forgoes the Commanders own shooting in favour of letting one unit within 6" re-roll all failed wound rolls, the Sa'Cea Sept Stratagem to spread 1 Markerlight to multiple units and the T'au Sept Stratagem to get +1 to wound when shooting at a unit that already got damaged this turn.
Also other psychic powers like the Obscurity Discipline's Hallucination, however that would require your Librarian to get within 18" of the Riptide. Probably the last thing he'll be able to do unless your whole army is there to provide target saturation ... while he's there he can throw in a Smite to get rid of some Drones too though (or a Mind Raid for another Mortal wound on the Riptide directly).

 

So truth be told, while you can severely weaken a Riptides support by picking off Characters, serious T'au lists have a lot of redundancy so by the time you are done with killing off all the Characters and hope he ran out of CP the game is probably over already.

 

Also what T'au don't like despite having FLY keyword on so many things and improved Overwatch capabilities is to get caught in melee. It's an additional phase where you can do damage and they don't really can except for with lucky rolls and it forces their hand to move their units when they might not wanted to which can screw with their positioning.

We got some nice anti-overwatch options now with relics, psychic powers (the inquisitor for example) and such. Shut down a Riptide, bite your teeth for the dozens of S5 AP0 shots that'll come your way from the surrounding Firewarriors and once you're in follow up with the rest of your melee units.

 

 

tl;dr

• Take some heavy anti-infantry firepower to take care of the Drones first. Quantity over quality is the rule here. 3 dakka Aggressors with double shooting take out 6 Shield Drones on average, 3 Dakka Centurions take out 5 Shield Drones on average. Without support so it goes up when near a Captain or a boosting Chaplain or such.
• Consider units that don't require LoS to get rid of Drones hiding behind Terrain.
• Take Snipers to take care of key units like Fireblades (Markerlights) and Firesight Marksmen (budget Fireblades). However be aware that the Riptides can still be buffed via Stratagems and at least once from a Commander (twice with Shadowsun). The Commander boost will get used up turn 1 usually though so just something you have to try and shrug off. Don't try to snipe the Commanders though. With their T5 Sv3+ and nearby Shield Drones you won't be able to do so in time to prevent them from using their ability.
• Consider melee to squeeze in an additional phase of damage and to force the T'au play to move to screw with his positioning. Definitely take anti-Overwatch stuff if you do so obviously.
• Play the mission. Always. That shouldn't need mentioning but sometimes people focus so much on killing their opponent they lose sight of the obvious.

 

tl;dr of the tl;dr

There is no easy and foolproof counter to the competetive T'au list or else it wouldn't be a competetive list. The above is the best you can do. If it were an easy task T'au would be a bottom tier army.

At least for once it's an army that doesn't convince by pure damage output or units being difficult to kill on their own and instead can hold their ground by units supporting eachother and protecting their big guns. Might feel a bit unfair but mostly because it's so unusual to see in 40k these days. There's not this one big bad you have to take care of. You have to take care of the whole army. 

On the bright side, T'au aren't the top dog on tournaments. Just like with Daemon Primarchs and Knights it's just something you have to plan to face but it's not what you have to beat to win the tournament. See them as a kind of gatekeeper list.

Edited December 29, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Closet Skeleton]

 

This list is not going around winning tournaments. A couple of exceptional players are winning tournaments with this list.

 

That's true of pretty much every top tier list. It is however very much a list that a beginner can easily use to just annihilate most non-optimal lists no matter how skilled their player is. Beating other top tier lists takes skill, winning against other lists doesn't really.

 

Best I did against this list was in forcing my opponent to take risks and make mistakes which distrupted his drone arrangements. I've never beaten it though. I don't think its really possible to beat with the infantry based marine armies I tend to run.

 

 

Some things to remember.

 

That list is in someways preying upon ITC rules such as terrain layout which ensures they can hide their drones out of LoS and is instead playing grinder style, not Alpha Strike.

ITC terrain rules help a lot but they just make it more likely you'll be in a gameplay as intended level of LoS blocking terrain. Worst environment I had against this list was with big LoS blocking hills that had nothing to do with ITC, and Warhammer World events seem to be moving towards ITC ruin rules. ETC also either uses the same ruin rules or has LoS blocking terrain.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Panzer]

 

Some things to remember.

 

That list is in someways preying upon ITC rules such as terrain layout which ensures they can hide their drones out of LoS and is instead playing grinder style, not Alpha Strike.

ITC terrain rules help a lot but they just make it more likely you'll be in a gameplay as intended level of LoS blocking terrain. Worst environment I had against this list was with big LoS blocking hills that had nothing to do with ITC, and Warhammer World events seem to be moving towards ITC ruin rules. ETC also either uses the same ruin rules or has LoS blocking terrain.

 

 

Agreed. The ITC terrain rules aren't so much an ITC unique thing but rather a crutch to have terrain properly affect the game without having to buy a ton of new actual LoS blocking terrain pieces for tournaments. LoS blocking terrain is the only terrain that actually affects games in a meaningful way since the cover rules are so wonky this edition.

We use them in our friendly games as well simply because we have lots of ruins and don't care for buying lots of mountains or walls or whatever to replace them with. Though we do think about barricading the first floor to make it actually LoS blocking as is.

[Subtleknife]

The drones also see really poor leadership of 6. They are prone to being wiped out through that as well.

[Panzer]

Only when there are a lot of Drones in one unit. They usually come in two or four though. The small units of 2 don't care about LD unless a 6 is rolled (but it's more likely you wipe the unit anyway) and the units of 4 still have good chances to make survive a morale check even if half of the unit got killed.

[Closet Skeleton]

The drones also see really poor leadership of 6. They are prone to being wiped out through that as well.

Not really, since there's always an ethereal in the super blob and you can't snipe them because of saviour protocols.

[Subtleknife]

 

 

The drones also see really poor leadership of 6. They are prone to being wiped out through that as well.

Not really, since there's always an ethereal in the super blob and you can't snipe them because of saviour protocols.

That changes the dynamic. Not all lists I've come against run ethreals. You will notice in the above I did not mention them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Savior protocols don’t work vs MW .

[Panzer]

Savior protocols don’t work vs MW .

 

Gotta love those thought-out and well formulated posts of yours. 

[L30n1d4s]

Savior Protocols do work on against MWs that are generated after the to Wound roll, just not on the ones that are generated before that point in the attacks sequence.

 

 

So, against Sniper Weapons (that generate a MW on a to Wound roll of 6+, in most cases) they would work.

[Panzer]

Savior Protocols do work on against MWs that are generated after the to Wound roll, just not on the ones that are generated before that point in the attacks sequence.

 

 

So, against Sniper Weapons (that generate a MW on a to Wound roll of 6+, in most cases) they would work.

 

^this

Mortal wounds from snipers and similar are considered to be part of the attack which gets converted to a single mortal wound.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks for the clarification L30.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

This list is not going around winning tournaments. A couple of exceptional players are winning tournaments with this list.

 

That's true of pretty much every top tier list. It is however very much a list that a beginner can easily use to just annihilate most non-optimal lists no matter how skilled their player is. Beating other top tier lists takes skill, winning against other lists doesn't really.

 

Best I did against this list was in forcing my opponent to take risks and make mistakes which distrupted his drone arrangements. I've never beaten it though. I don't think its really possible to beat with the infantry based marine armies I tend to run.

 

 

 

 

It is not really true of the top marines sub-factions right now.

 

The top Tau Sept lists are winning tournaments in the hands of a couple of players. Mostly Richard Seigler. The overall win percentage for the subfaction is 51.6%. 

 

Iron Hands are winning tournaments in the hands of many more players off the back of an overall subfaction win rate of 65.8%. It is the list winning tournaments, albeit the best player present with the list.

 

There are variations of the list going around as they get tweaked for different formats but the OP missed out one very vital thing that is really the heart of the list - commanders. The commanders in this list are typically heavily tooled up to be deadly at 18" range with or without support. They are not support characters but are the most efficient damage dealers in the Tau codex in their own right.

 

I wrote out a really long answer here but in the end I think what you need to do is read this https://www.goonhammer.com/blood-of-champion-an-interview-with-richard-siegler-champion-of-the-atlanta-pro-tabletop-open/

 

The list is a counter-punching list. It is designed to make you want to charge in close then punish you hard for doing so. Note how he says he keeps his one big offensive punch for after his opponent delivers their big punch, that is how the list plays. It does not come out swinging, it wants you do do that so that you come inside the 18" range zone where it is devastatingly deadly.

 

For the time being there is no simple marine brute force approach that can reliably beat this Tau list when played well. If all you can do is smash face then you are rock and this is designed from the ground up to be paper.

 

You have to be better at playing the mission.  Of course the issue is that anyone good with a list like this not only set out to play the mission but they have to do that every single game and probably for the full 5-6 turns so they are getting lots of intensive practice. In the current meta probably at least half their games are against other marine opponents so they are getting highly specific practice for playing against you.  At equal skill levels - of the specific long term game management skills required - you should be getting even results but the problem a lot of marine players will have is that they are not practicing those skills because they are getting a lot of easy games..

 

In case you were wondering, the actual counters to the list are not marines but are considered by the Tau player community to be lists that have been pushed out of the meta by marines (such as the plague bearer lists with stacking penalties to hit and massed mortal wound output).