Space Marine OP

[Mitsarugi]

Greetings Battle Brothers

 

  I was in a tournament recently, I brought my Imperial Fist to serve the Emperors justice.

There were 20 participants in the tournament, ITC format, My first opponent was a Tau player, 

there were 6 Tau players and they all seem to have the same list (three Riptides, so many drones, Shadowsun)

As we start to play, my opponent keeps going on  about how overpowered Space Marines are. Mean while

I am on turn 3 of killing drones with a 4+ invul and a feel no pain, having my units destroyed by an entire army that is hitting on

+2/+3 with full rerolls, I finally get into combat and they just fly away with no penalty's, which is disheartening after I had to get 

through the 7 units that overwatched me (hitting on 5 and 6's because why would any Tau player play anything other than Tau Sept)

I end it up winning, but it was dumb luck (Leviathan Dread up the gut for the win, that and luck with some saves.)

I won on points, but then fought another Tau the next round and lost that one,  23 to 35.

He also kept talking about how OP Space Marines are after destroying 3 Primaruis squads in 1 turn.

When will it stop?

 

 

[Gederas]

The irony of Tau players crying something is OP is delicious.

 

Did you point out their Shield Drones and how they can tank Titan-grade weapons, reduce all damage (even if it's well beyond what they should be able to survive) to 1 Mortal Wound and save it on a 5+++? And they're what, 5 points or something ridiculous like that?

Because if they're using that same list as each other.... Just keep bringing the cheese. Tau players have literally NO RIGHT to complain.

[Aothaine]

It will be around until the new codices are released. Honestly though, just ignore the players that complain like that. Every army has a way to win in a very mean fashion. You were playing in a competitive game. If you respond at all to those statements, which you shouldn't imho, just say "Well yeah.. this is a competition. I'm going to bring units that are going to be strong and help me win."

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah best just to ignore the whiners. Especially Tau.

[Dracos]

I don't have problem with the copy paste Tau list. They don't have the versatility of the Astartes. Its really their only competitive build. Complaining about Imperial Fist though? Take a walk. If you were playing Iron Hands I might be slightly more empathetic. Karma is a   though, so suck it up and watch as the wheel eventually turns again in 2020.

[Doghouse]

To be fair after the mediocre representations of Humanity's finest in the past in a gaming meta often dominated by Tau and Eldar for years it's about darn time we got a seriously competitive army.

 

"AND WE SHALL KNOW NO FEAR!" resonates in the ears of our enemies as a war cry to be feared once again!

 

I really like the current representation in the rules and I have no doubt armies that Xenos that follow will build on what has been learnt from the new marine codex to make them a little more unique. You will always get people that enjoy optimising the latest rules for an army and I've seen lots of people scouring new Codex books for that edge that'll win them games. I just hope that our Codex even if it doesn't stay top tier remains somewhere near the top because I can easily see newer Xenos codexes being crafted to counter it.

 

There will always be cookie cutter power lists unfortunately for the latest shiney release from GW, we're just having our moment in the sun right now.

[H311fi5h]

This Tau list is specifically designed to counter Space Marines, while I assume your list is not designed to counter Tau specifically. And yet your Space Marine list seems to be perfectly able to hold its ground against its worst counter.

The fact that players have to play hard counter anti-SM lists in order to stay competitive should worry you about the state of the game.

 

While at the subject of whining players, let's not forget the hordes of SM players who spent the last year leading up to the new SM codex whining about literally every other codex release on this very forum. I'd be very careful when pointing fingers. 

[Kallas]

This Tau list is specifically designed to counter Space Marines, while I assume your list is not designed to counter Tau specifically. And yet your Space Marine list seems to be perfectly able to hold its ground against its worst counter.

The fact that players have to play hard counter anti-SM lists in order to stay competitive should worry you about the state of the game.

 

Yeah, there's an issue of balance here. I would say that the design philosophy of the various codexes has been completely scattershot: some Codexes came out powerful and pretty well balanced (eg, Guard), some came out more powerful (Craftworlds) and some came out crap (Grey Knights).

 

The issue is compounded as newer books learn from previous ones and adapt. There was no cohesive design behind all of the books, and that has led to the current situation. The Marine Codex itself isn't particularly incredible: it's certainly good, don't get me wrong, but it's learned a lot from the previous books and is a much more cohesive book overall (meaning there is a lot less deadweight than the other, older books).

 

Let's look at Tau: a whole heap of units are worthless, such as the various Kroot; there's a restriction on one of their more powerful units (Commanders) because people took only those (and people only took those because regular Crisis Teams were poorly balanced). They don't have vitally needed internal balance - that's not to say that external balance is important, but the reason we see basically the same Tau list every time is because the internal balance is completely off.

 

Kroot offer nothing against Marines, for example. Maybe they shouldn't - but Vespid absolutely should, as their weapons are almost perfectly designed Marine killers...but since they have no synergy with core Tau Empire rules (no Stratagems, no Sept benefits other than one utterly laughable Warlord Trait, etc), are made of paper (and Finecast) and cost a whole lot for very little. Point being, Tau are pigeonholed into a certain kind of list (Triptides and Shield Drone spam) because their other options aren't viable.

 

While at the subject of whining players, let's not forget the hordes of SM players who spent the last year leading up to the new SM codex whining about literally every other codex release on this very forum. I'd be very careful when pointing fingers. 

 

Most SM players were lamenting the state of SM, and pretty rightly so as it was a shambles. The new Codex has flipped that on its head, but that doesn't mean that suddenly they should never have complained about the crap previous Codex.

[Dracos]

Just a point. That Tau list has basically remained the same for quite a while before the new Marine codex came out. Seiglers been playing it all year. To say it’s designed specifically to fight a loyalist Astartes is incorrect

[Mitsarugi]

Every Space Marine list was different, all the Tau list were the same. for an army that is supposed to have the weakness of  soso ballistic skill and suck at Hand to hand. They have many ways to get around it. I think Space Marines are competitive now, Yes Iron Hands was a little over the top, but GW fixed it quick.

[tychobi]

Curating your opponents experience is tough with a percieved rules imbalance (tau drone abuse not withstanding). My advice is to commiserate. Tell him a trick you used to beat him and compliment something he did well. Ask if they would like you to explain the weakness you exploited to win. Explain what tactic might have changed things. This 40k game is not fair. Never was. But being a gracious winner is the bread and butter of good sportsmanship.

[Panzer]

To be fair, the competetive T'au list just so happens to be somewhat of a counter matchup for Marine lists and the lists the competetive T'au list would have problems with aren't around anymore because they just get stomped by the new Marine lists. Kinda have to blame your own Codex for that I guess.

However it's also pretty much the only kind of list T'au players can bring to be competetive. Sure there are some variations but for the most part if you try to take anything else you'll get stomped in competetive matches. 

 

 

The irony of Tau players crying something is OP is delicious.

 

Did you point out their Shield Drones and how they can tank Titan-grade weapons, reduce all damage (even if it's well beyond what they should be able to survive) to 1 Mortal Wound and save it on a 5+++? And they're what, 5 points or something ridiculous like that?

Because if they're using that same list as each other.... Just keep bringing the cheese. Tau players have literally NO RIGHT to complain.

 

Shield Drones are 10ppm, not 5. And they are kinda required because without them the big suits would just get wrecked. T'au lists are all about synergy and no unit, except for the Commanders, are worth their points on their own usually.

 

T'au players have as much a right to complain as anyone else. They aren't the biggest bad out there and they are pretty much forced to play this kind of list to be able to be competetive at all in the first place. I'm sure there are plenty T'au players who would love to play a different kind of list, perhaps with lots of Crisis Suits or Breachers and so on, but that'd be suicide on tournaments.

Now if we're talking about the people who play T'au just because they have a strong list available, then yes those aren't allowed to complain. However that's not a T'au specific thing since those people exist for Marines as well *cough* Iron Hands *cough*.

Though the complaining should definitely happen after a game and not during. Constantly hearing someone moan about their or your army takes all the fun away.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Panzer

[MajorNese]

The irony of Tau players crying something is OP is delicious.

And, to be honest, quite notorious.

Even back in the days of quad riptide Taudar, they would constantly complain how they "have to" proxy field 4 riptides to have barely any chance at winning, while blasting everything off the field with ease.

 

To be honest, the most frustrating thing about Tau is not getting any new releases in ages while Marines get showered with model/rules releases. Everyone knows how Tau work and what they can do, yet there are innumerable combos and tricks to explore with Marines. But Tau are far from alone in that regard - comparing my AdMech to current marines, I know which of both I will field for the foreseeable future...

[Acebaur]

I think we've covered the topic enough.