BatRep: ITC LVO Prep BA vs IH

[Indefragable]

Long post, fellas, so bear with me here, but I there’s a ton of useful stuff here (if I may say so myself), so hopefully you can sit through it all.


I had a 2000pt ITC game against an Iron Hands player practicing for LVO. From our first conversation about it, this was deliberately meant to be (and I quote) a “no lube prison shower meanest fight possible” type of game.

This was my chance to get full-on competitive and test myself against the big boogeymen of the current meta.

How I felt going into the game.


Quick note: Since this was a practice game and my opponent had a lot of models in various stages of assembly/painting, we both agreed to a “proxy storm”, so models you see in the pics are little off (like me using Devs as Eliminators and Intercessors as Incursors).

 

My list:

Hidden Content

Blood Angels 1999pts

Command Points:
Battle-forged: +3CP
Battalion: +5 CP
Battalion: +5 CP
=+13CP

-3CP Armory of Baal:
—The Angel’s Wing (Captain A)
—The Gleaming Pinions (Captain B )
—The Standard of Sacrifice (Sanguinary Ancient)
-1CP Death Visions of Sanguinius (Captain A)
-1CP Death Visions of Sanguinius (Captain B )
-1CP Hero of the Chapter
=  -6CP

7CP Starting Out


Battalion 1:

HQ:

Captain
Aka “Mario”
-Jump Pack
-Thunder hammer + storm shield
-Relic: The Angel’s Wing: no overwatch and re-roll charges
-1CP: Hero of the Chapter: Gift of Foresight
-1CP: Death Visions of Sanguinius

Captain
Aka “Luigi”
-Jump Pack
-Thunder hammer + storm shield
-Relic: Gleaming Pinions (Fall Back and Charge and +1 to Charge rolls)
-1CP: Death Visions of Sanguinius

TROOPS:

Incursors x 5
-Haywire Mine

Incursors x 5
-Haywire Mine

Incursors x 5
-Haywire Mine

ELITES:

Sanguinary Guard x 10
-Power Fist + Angelus Boltgun x 10
-Death Masks

Sanguinary Ancient
-Plasma pistol
-Encarmine sword
-Death Mask

-Relic: The Standard of Sacrifice (5+++ to all BA models in 6")


Battalion 2:

Lemartes:
-Warlord: Adamantium Will (free Deny the Witch)
-Invocation of Destruction
-Litany of Hate
-Exhortation of Rage
-Canticle of Hate

Chief Librarian Mephiston (Primaris)
0. Smite
1. The Quickening
3. Shield of Sanguinius
6. Wings of Sanguinius

TROOPS:

Incursors x 5
-Haywire Mine

Scouts x 5
-Bolters x 3
-Heavy bolter x 1
-Sgt Bolter + chainsword

Scouts x 5
-Camo cloaks
-Sniper Rifles x 3
-Heavy bolter x 1
-Sgt Sniper rifle + chainsword

ELITES:

Death Company x 15
-Jump Packs
-Power fist + bolter x 3
-Chainsword + bolter x 12

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Eliminators
-Bolt sniper rifle x 3

Eliminators
-Bolt sniper rifle x 3

Eliminators
-Bolt sniper rifle x 3

His list:

Hidden Content

Iron Hands 2000pts

Command Points:
Battle-forged: +3CP
Battalion: +5 CP
Battalion: +5 CP
=+13CP

-1CP Relic 1 The Ironstone (Chaplain)
-1CP Relic 2  The Gorgon’s Chain (Techmarine)
-1CP Relic 3 The Tempered Helm (a Lieutenant)
-1CP Master of the Forge (Techmarine)
-1CP Master of Sanctity  (Chaplain)
-1CP Hero of the Chapter
=  -6CP

7CP Starting Out

Battalion 1:

HQ:

Chaplain
-Jump pack
-Boltgun
-1CP: Master of Sanctity
-Relic: The Ironstone (friendly IH vehicles in 3" reduce damage taken by 1)
-Catechism of Fire
-Recitation of Focus

Techmarine
-Boltgun
-Master of the Machine
-Power-axe
-Servo-arm
-1CP: Master of the Forge
-Relic: The Gorgon’s Chain (4++, enemies are -1 To Hit when shooting at this model)
-Warlord: Master the Machine (from Faith & Fury; +1 To Hit to <Chapter> vehicles in 6")

Intercessors x 5
-Stalker bolt rifles
-Sgt Power fist

Tactical Marines x 5
-Sgt Bolter + chainsword

Tactical Marines x 5
-Sgt Bolter + chainsword

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Thunderfire Cannon
-Techmarine gunner w/ Servo-harness, flamer, plasma cutter

Battalion 2:

HQ:

Lieutenant
-Jump pack
-Bolt pistol
-Chainsword

Lieutenant
-Bolt pistol
-Chainsword
-Relic: The Tempered Helm (get CP back on 5+)

TROOPS:

Intercessors x 5
-Stalker bolt rifles

Tactical Marines x 5
-Sgt Bolter + chainsword

Tactical Marines x 5
-Sgt Bolter + chainsword

ELITES:

Ironclad Dreadnought
-Heavy flamer
-Hunter Killer Missile x 2
-Ironclad Assault Launchers
-Seismic Hammer
-Dreadnought CCQ w/ heavy flamer
-1CP: March of the Ancients (makes it a <Character> )

-1CP: Hero of the Chapter (forget the WLT he took)

Redemptor Dreadnought
-Fragstorm grenade launcher x 2
-Heavy onslaught gatling cannon
-Icarus rocket pod
-Redemptor CCW w/ onslaught gatling cannon

Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank
-Heavy bolter x 3

Relic Whirlwind Scorpius
-Storm bolter

FAST ATTACK:
Land Speeders x 2
-Heavy bolter
-Typhoon missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Land Raider Achilles
-Quad Launcher
-Twin multi-melta x 2

The Plan:

Hidden Content

My list conception and plan was to focus on Killy ITC secondary objectives and do so by crashing the enemy lines with the Incursors while also jumping up the board with DC, SG, and the characters. It is deliberately designed NOT to DS outside of opportunistic UWoF usage. The idea is the early pressure and threat of lockup puts attention on the Incursors, thus providing <Character> protection and forcing the enemy to choose between the threat in his face or the Elites jumping up the board. Lemartes as Warlord means he can first buff DC and then hang out with the SG when they catch up, while giving them +2” to charges.

I have been toying with the idea of Astorath, Lemartes, or a Chaplain as Warlord to get a 3rd Deny the Witch (on top of Mephiston’s 2) to help out against enemy psykers, and with the overall concept, my dudes should all be close enough to get to use the DtW’s.

My personal goals were also to test out:
-Incursor spam
-Character assassination spam without Assassins and going heavy on bolt rifle eliminators and Scout snipers. Aka the “hide yo kids, hide yo wife” approach.
-Footslogging New Mephiston
-Dual Smash Captains with relics, aka Super Sanguinius Smash Bros
-Go light on Litanies and consider them a bonus, rather than a crucial element to build around

A few notes on wargear and such:
-Sanguinary Ancient is built that way, so perhaps not “the best” choice with wargear, but I am unlikely to change it since painting that banner is a pain. I’ll eat the extra 7pts even in a tournament
-Someone out there will pull the statistics about the unlikelihood of all 4 Incursor squads being able to deploy their mines. Sure, but how do you know which ones will survive and which don’t? And I would rather pay for the option on the off chance I get to use it.
-I was debating a ML on the sniper scouts, but since I took Lemmy over a vanilla chappy, I went HB instead.

The Game:

Hidden Content

Note on Compass directions: when I say “North” etc.. , think of the far short table edge near the wall (see photo below) as “North”, with the long edges being East and West respectively

Mission:

4. What’s Yours is Mine (each player must put an OBJ in the other person’s Deployment Zone. If a player holds both of these specific OBJ, they get the Bonus VP each Battle Round.

 

Deployment:

Dawn of War (deploy along long edges, so fighting East to West)

 

Terrain:

as depicted in the photo below.  

 

Secondaries:
-Me:

--Headhunter (kill enemy <Character> s)

--Big Game Hunter (kill enemy <Vehicles> of 7+ Wounds)

--Behind Enemy Lines (if you have a unit fully in the enemy DZ at the start of your Turn you get +1 VP)

 

-Him:

--Headhunter (kill enemy <Character> s)

--Engineers (designate a Troops unit to be "Engineers", bonus VP for continuously controlling an OBJ)

--Old School (Slay the Warlord, First Strike, Linebreaker)

Deployment:
We roll off and I choose to fully deploy first so as to get the choice of going either 1st or 2nd. I put Incursors as far forward as I can while still tucking them behind the 1st floor LoS-blocking ruins. Eliminators likewise go as far forward as I can while being as high up as they can be (to discourage easy charges from him) and getting the best views of the board as possible. SG and SA go on the far right flank, again tucked into the LoS-blocking ruins to the South West in my DZ.  DC bomb, Lemartes, and the characters go in my DZ behind the Northern-center LoS-blocking terrain that is stuffed with Incurcors on the ground and Eliminators up high. In a happy accident, I put the two Scout squads on the two objectives in my DZ mostly since that was the only places of cover left more than any real plan. Keep this in mind.

He deploys abreast his North-South DZ, with Tacs and intercessors up front and the vehicles in a line tucked to the edge of the board, going (from North to South) : Whirlwind Scorpius, Thunderfire cannon (TFC), Redepemptor, Ironclad Dread (Character), LR Achilles, Land Speeder Squadron, Sicaran Punisher. Other than a LT buffing the NorthEast corner Scorpius and TFC, his characters start in the LR.

I choose to go first (more on this later).

Pre-start:
He does not Seize the Initiative.
In a flash of either brilliance or stupidity, I decide to Forlorn Fury Mario up the board to try to turn off as much overwatch as possible.

 

Pic of where things stand after my movement phase of my Turn 1 (I forgot to take more pics)

Turn 1:
-I move up Incursors as close as they can and dump a HayWire Mine (HWM) in an area that has potential to be annoying for him to get out of his DZ towards the rest of the board, but nothing really great. SG + SA jump up to Southern-middle LOS-blocking terrain, just behind where the Southern 2 squads of Incursors deployed. DC likewise jump up to where the Northern 2x Incursors started, as does Lemartes. Luigi jumps up into the middle objective of the board in order to setup potential T2 charge.
-Meph runs as far as he can, but is denied Wings of Sanguinius by my opponent’s smart usage of his auto-deny-on-a-4+ Stratagem. He then throws Shield of Sanguinius on an Incursor squad he can reach. This will have absolutely 0 effect on the game. Mario is able to leap right into the middle of his lines, with the ability to potentially charge almost anything he wants.
-Combined weight of 3x3 Eliminators firing the S5 AP-2 D:D3+1MW sniper rounds into a LT knocks off 3 wounds from him; they didn’t roll great, but I hit plenty of times and simply failed to do any worthwhile damage, even before his FNP. Incursors take potshots at whatever they are in rapid fire range of, plinking away a tactical here and there or a wound or two from his Intercessors. Backfield scouts with sniper rifles and HB’s kill a few more (only targets they could see). I forget to throw a krak grenade with Mario (even though I constantly remind myself to).
-I get 3/4 Incusor squads into combat with his Tacs/Intercessors, though only one squad gets in fully intact due to his 5+ OW. Mario declares that deliciously cheesy charge against “all eligible targets” and decides to lock-up his Land Speeders and LR Achilles. Hence why his infantry could light me up in OW. My Incursors punch some lights out, but don’t get a unit kill (there are 2x1 Tac squads left). In return, he manages to kill 3 more Incursors. Mario pops Red Rampage, but only gets +1A, and chooses to put all of his attacks into the Land Speeders instead of the Achilles with my reasoning being that a “good kill” is better than a “good wounding” as I was unlikely to kill the Achilles. Secondly, the speeders can <Fly> and were his most mobile option so I wanted to take them out of the game. Doing that I could still keep the Achilles locked up for at least one more turn. The best laid plans…. Mario rolls well enough to kill one of the speeders, but he rolls FNP’s just well enough that the first speeder soaks up all of his attacks, leaving the second one not only alive and well, but also no longer tied up in combat. I choose NOT to activate Honor the Chapter at this point since I have only 4CP left and know I will sorely need some Command Re-rolls or such throughout the game.

-He pops his characters out of the Achilles, moves the Ironclad into 1.1” range of Mario, hops the freed land speeder onto the center objective and right next to Luigi, and shuffles some of his infantry around so that he can bag his Engineers secondary and maximize shooting + charging with them. Redemptor deftly moves up to 3” from my DC, on the other side of the LOS-blocking ruins so it can’t be overmatched with ITC rules. His jump LT hops to far South flank to give re-rolls to Southern infantry and Sicaran.
-No mind games for him
-He proceeds to kill 10x DC with his Whirlwind Scorpius which does not need LOS and fires 6D3 AP-3 shots in DevDoc. Ouch. Redemptor + TFC + Stalker intercessors wipe an Eliminator squad and bring another down to just the Sgt w/ 1 wound. My non-stuck-in Incursor squad gets dropped to 2 bodies. His Land speeder proceeds to light up Luigi who manages to barely stay on this mortal coil by making exactly the minimum FNP rolls needed to not blow up from his S8 AP-3 D:6 DevDoc typhoon misses. I kinda love that unit. Those missiles REALLY hurt at AP-3 and D:6 and LS is an amazing platform for IH (see commentary at the end).  So Luigi has 1 wound left.
-Ironclad charges unfettered into Mario and his Chaplain and mid-line Tacs dog pile into 2x Incursor squads, while his Intercessors and lone Tac Sgt dog pile into the Incursors there. I lose the 2x northern Incursor squads and my locked-in Souther Incursor is down to a valiant Sgt tying up 3x squads. His Redemptor charges my DC and brings them down to a lone power fist guy who manages to take off 2 wounds before vaporizing to morale (I did not have the CP to save a lone dude). His Ironclad uses the siege hammer (D:4) on Mario at which point I pop Transhuman Physiology and hope for the best. He rolls exceedingly well with both To Hit and To wound and…I manage to roll pretty darn well on storm shield saves, but not well enough: 3 wounds go through. I then choose to one of my last CP re-rolling one of the saves. Precisely the 3 I need. Now on to the next crisis: that’s 8 wounds I have to make FNP’s against. That’s where the Gift of Foresight trait + DVoS really shines and the reason it’s become my go-to: I manage to roll 3x 6’s, 2x5’s, a 2,, and 2x 1’s. I re-roll the 1’s and get a 3 and a 5. Mario lives to fight another day w/ 3 wounds. Punching back, My Incursors do very little and Mario manages to bring the Ironclad down to 2 wounds…if I had done +1D each hammer hit would have been D:4 and i would have been able to nuke him….but then again, I would have died before I could have swung. The Land Speeder charges into Luigi to try to finish him off, but whiffs. Luigi hammers him back. No explosion. People may doubt that move on his part, but taking out a smash captain (netting a VP) with a single wound left is something he could not pass up, especially as it would have gotten him closer to the center objective if it worked.


Turn 2:
-Mephiston moves up within 2” of the Redemptor to give myself options between a guaranteed charge into it or Wings’ing deeper into his lines. Mario stays locked up in combat with the Ironclad, Tacticals, and Achilles. The Sanguinary Guard are able to jump all the way up to be in range of charging all of his southern flank, wrapping up both his Intercessor squads dogsled on my lone Incursor Sgt as well as (with some good rolls) get all the way to the Sicaran Punisher. Sang Ancient right there with them. Luigi is able to leap over the ongoing Intercessor vs Incursor fight to have a guaranteed charge into both his jump LT and the Sicaran. Lemartes, who managed to pull off Canticle of Hate, is also able to jump all the way up to guaranteed charge range of both the LT and Sicaran as well. Eliminators and Scouts try not to twitch. Only unengaged Incursor squad moves up to be just barely in 3” of the OBJ I deployed in his DZ (important).
-I decide to go after the Redemptor and get off both The Quickening (+1A) and Shield of Sanguinius with Meph.
-Bolt pistols of dudes locked in combat don’t do anything. Eliminators again fail to do more than a token wound on his backfield LT (though there’s only 4 shots total this time around). Scouts are too far back to do anything.
-Incursors fail to charge into the Intercessors. Biggest decision is how to charge the Sicaran: both Lemmy and Luigi can easily do it, making it safe for SG to get in, but with the amount of fire the Sicaran Punisher can put out, I don’t want to risk either my Warlord or Luigi who only has a single wound left. I opt for the SG to charge, and they make it with spades (effectively 11” w/ the +2” from Canticles) and manage to miraculously survive his overwatch with some help of effective 1+ cover and the SoS banner. I start with Meph since and he gets the Redemptor down to 4 wounds. He then interrupts with the Ironclad (Mario can’t fight until after all other chargers) and I miraculously make all but 2x Storm Shield saves. Another 8 FNP’s to make. In the epic move of the entire game, I make 6x 5+ rolls and 2x 1’s of which a re-roll nets me another 5+. Mario survives again, left with 2 wounds. On the other side, I start with the SG and they nuke the LT and both Intercessor squads, and then Luigi and Lemmy tag team the Sicaran and take it down. The +6” Consolidate from Canticle of Hate really helps me ensure the SG can maneuver to maintain <Character> protections for Luigi, Lemmy, and the SA.

-His jump chaplain bounces over to engage both Luigi and Lemmy and the SG. The Achilles Falls Back to get away from Mario and finally start shooting. However, the way he has to drive through everything he only gets so far.
-No mind bullets.
-The Whirlwind Scorpius kills 6x SG. Ouch. TFC Kills the lone Eliminator. Bolter dudes do what bolter dudes do best and try to plink off wounds from things, but to no avail. Techmarine shoots everything it has at Mario who….once again makes all storm shield and FNP saves (Gift of Foresight + DvOS FTW).
-The Redemptor gets Meph down to a single wound. Once again, epic FNP rolls save a character and Meph punches back to fell the dread…no explosion, thankfully. His Techmarine and Tacticals punch the crap out of Mario, eventually felling him, though to be fair it was Tactical fist spam that did him in…still managed to survive the servo harness and power axe. Despite rolling decent OW w/ angelus boltguns I fail to do a wound to the jump chaplain as he charges into Lemmy, Luigi, and the SG. The chaplain is able to kill both Luigi and Lemartes with good rolls, but falls to the counter-punch of the 4x SG left who then proceed to consolidate into the Achilles locking it down yet again. Again, the 6” consolidate from Canticle of Hate is incredible.


Turn 3:
-The two man Incursor squad gets into cover and firmly holds the OBJ. Meph moves further NorthEast to get as close to the action as possible. The SG are locked in with the Achilles and the SA and lone Incursor Sgt move North to try to take on his Tacticals and Techmarine. Eliminator and Scouts stay put.
-Meph gets Quickening (+1) and Wings off.
-Meph and the SA kill a few tacticals with AP-4 plasma pistols. All Scouts are out of range/LoS at this point. Eliminators finally manage to do something and kill his foot LT buffing the TFC, Engineer-Tac squad, and Scorpius.
-The lone Incursor Sgt dies to overwatch charging the Tac squad that killed Mario, but both Meph and SA make it in. I had moved + Wing’d Meph to be 5” or less from as many targets as possible for this very reason. With the LT dead from shooting, I decide to go for his Techmarine since I get the VP for killing a character and I don’t trust the SA + Incursor Sgt to do it on their own. Meph kills his Warlord Techmarine and the SA wipes out the Tac squad, netting the kills but leaving them dangerously exposed. The SG take a couple wounds off the Achilles, but with only 2A each (since they could not charge) and wounding on 4’s, they are limited in their potential. Meph and the SA Consolidate towards the Achilles to hide in combat, but I can’t position to prevent it from moving.

Quick recap:
I have 2x backfield Scouts squads and an Eliminator unit up high in ruins, plus 4x SG, the Sang Ancient, and Meph all tied up with his Achilles and then a 2 man Incursor squad in cover holding his Bonus DZ obj.
He has the Achilles locked in, plus a 5man Tac squad claiming the “Engineers” secondary each turn on the NorthEastern most Obj in LoS-blocking ruins, also guarding his TFC and Whirlwind Scorpius.

-He Falls Back with his Achilles towards the middle of the board. Other units stay put.
-He has no overdue library books.
-Apologies: I forget exactly what he shot what at this turn, but it is not effective enough to do lasting damage.
-He charges Meph with the TFC (lol!). This might sound crazy, but again, like the speeder charging a smash captain, it’s worth the risk to finish him off with a single wound from a power axe and also denies my charge bonuses. The TFC gunner rolls pretty well, but yet again amazing rolls from Meph saves him. Meph makes quick work of the TFC + gunner.

Turn 4:
-I jump the SG over his Engineers into LOS-blocking cover. Meph and SA move up towards his Engineers-Tacs and the Scorpius as well. Incursos hide as best they can on the obj.
-Meph gets Shield and Quickening (+1) off again.
-Last Eliminator squad tries to plink wounds off the Achilles, as do the Scouts that are in range. Meph kills a Tac w/ his plasma.
-This is where it gets interesting: I really want to take out the Scorpius, but that thing has been his best killer in the entire game and I don’t have any sure-fire options for eating its OW: The SG are down to 4x dudes, and even with their effective 1+/5+++ I’m worried about them. The SA is essentially a light version of the SG squad. Meph’s T5 doesn’t matter and he’s only got a single wound left. So in one of the pivotal moves of the game I elect to charge the Scorpius with the SG. He kills them to a man with OW, doing enough hits, wounds, and damage to get around the 1+/5+++. Ouch. I then choose the safer option (something something discretion is the better part of valor something something) and send Meph into combat with the Tacticals. When he makes that charge, I then belatedly decide “what the heck” and charge the SA into the Scorpius….who proceeds to barely survive OW with a single wound, yet makes it in. I kick myself for not deciding to do that before sending Meph into the Tacs, and take my aggression out vicariously through Meph who barely lifts a finger to dispatch them. The SA whiffs his attacks on the Scorpius.

-He Falls back with the Scorpius forcing me to have to eat OW if I want to punch it again, something we both know I’m gun-shy about doing again. His Achilles moves further towards my backfield and with bad rolling kills a single Scout.

Turn 5:
-At this point I decide to play “stay the alive” to try to ride out to victory and do my best to hide Meph and the SA on the Northeastern OBJ, though LoS does not matter for the Scorpius. All my dudes grab their shovels and dig into their positions as best they can to ride things out. I’m shooting pistols at a land Raider at this part, partially for the AP-1 of Assault Doctrine and partially because spite > common sense in such situations. I actually get 2 wounds off it.

-He blows Mephy away with his Scorpius, essentially kiting me (no penalty for Moving and Shooting Heavy weapons while DevDoc is (still) active and also gets to re-roll 1’s). His Achilles moves closer to my sniper scouts and kills 2 more with shooting.

Turn 6:
-I hold tight and take pot shots at his Whirlwind hoping to magically blow something up. Surprise: it doesn’t work.

-He shoots my lone Incursor off of the OBJ with his Scorpius (denying me the Bonus secondary) and then shoots + charges his Achilles into my scouts to finish them clearing me off of two OBJ, but I still have bolter scouts and the SA each on one.

The Results:
Remember my prison shower comment above? This was basically the shower fight scene from Eastern Promises*.

It was much hairier than the end score would suggest, since if there had been a T7 he would have gotten 5, possibly 6 more points and I would have maybe gotten 1 more.  At the end he has a scuffed up Achilles sitting on a OBJ in my DZ and his wounded-yet-unbracketed-Scorpius along the North edge. I have the 1-wound left SA on the Northeastern OBJ and the bolter scouts (who have not moved a muscle all game) left on the Southwest OBJ in my DZ.

End Result: 33 to 26 Blood Angels victory.

How I felt after the game was officially over.

Comments:

Hidden Content

MY DUDES:
-Incursor spam: has potential, but the number of dudes I lost in combat was staggering….their job was to kill screens in CQC and instead they were the ones getting killed in the second combat phase. Granted, it’s Iron Hands so outside of Tau, there probably isn’t a worse matchup for BA Incursors in such a role: their 5+ OW and 6+ FNP really takes the sting off of Red Thirst.
—I was able to deploy 2x Haywire Mines w/ 4 units
—…that did nothing, but there is massive potential to gum up the works with them. If I had been smarter with my model placement, one unit could have effectively turned off the mid-table objective with his
—Query: can Incursors deploy their mines in combat to effectively cause D3 “free” MW? RAW it appears that you can and my opponent agreed with that interpretation, but I never got the chance to test it out.

-Eliminators: more disappointing than the Patriots loss to the Dolphins on Sunday. They failed to kill a single character, even with their lil sniper scout brothers providing an extra MW or two. Again, Iron Hands factor, but I was quite disappointed. IMO 3 models is too small a unit to be effective. If you could put 5 in a unit, than that would allow for both the quality and quantity of shots with 3x at BS and 1x at +1 To Hit from the Sgt. With 3, I never used the Sgt’s ability since the trench math seemed like more total shots is always greater than less shots with half being marginally better; an extra shot not only increases chance to hit, but total potential damage from getting lucky far outweighs the reliability of hitting. But then again, they didn’t perform so maybe I’m wrong about that?
—Need more reps with them before throwing the baby out with the bath water, since A. his was a single game B. against a particularly tough matchup C. I rolled particularly badly
—I still want to try 3x las fusill squads as early AT pressure

-Chief Librarian Mephiston: first time using the Primaris version (proxied) and first time in 8th I’ve ever footslogged him…every time I’ve previously used him he’s lept out of a Stormraven or Rhino. And of course, my fears were confirmed: my opponent used the IH Stratagem to straight up deny Wings on a 4+, and then in a later turn (when I was way out of CP) he failed to manifest it as well. It kinda worked out, since my opponent brought a toy for Mephy to play with to him, and the board setup (Dawn of War) favored quickly crossing the table. In other scenarios, I am cautious about his success.
—I firmly stand behind my critiques of Meph’s rules as they stand. For all of his fluff, the fact that he lacks a native invuln and/or ability to support his own psychic casts is tragic. I would gladly pay 200+ pts for him to live up to his reputation
—T5 2+ helps against bolter spam, but 90% of his use comes from fighting big scary things (like an IH Redemptor Dreadnought) in which case it really doesn’t do anything. I stand by my earlier comments that the freakin’ LORD OF DEATH should have some combo of -1 To Wound, -1 To Hit, native 5++ increasing to 4++ w/ Shield power, and/or 4+++ FNP (I’m not saying all of that, but some combo of those).
—To clarify, my beef is that for Meph being the beatstick librarian of the setting, he is shockingly squishy….yes, you heard that hear, I am saying Meph is squishy. He’s hardier than every other librarian, but that’s still not hard enough, since he’s not used as a librarian, but rather an eclectic chapter champion. And for that reason, I will continue to gripe about him until he fits his fluff.
—Today, Mephiston killed: Redemptor Dreadnought, kitted-out Iron Hands Master of the Forge, 2x5 Tactical Marines (with assist from Sanguinary Ancient)

-Smash Bros: I like the idea, but I don’t know if it will cut it. The guy who would have benefitted the most from Fall Back + Charge didn’t have it, and the guy who would have benefitted the most from no Overwatch (after the first turn) didn’t have it. Partially that’s on me for all the variables of the matchup, from positioning to WLT selection (I went the Gift of Foresight + Black Rage route….if I had done +1D, then the Ironclad would have died much earlier on). But I think if anyone were to run it in the future, the two captains are best run together. This might seem wasteful since we all know the power of a good Smash Capt achievement, but if they run together their combined hammer attacks take away the need for +1D WLT/SIW and if deployed appropriately,  Mario turns off overwatch for Luigi in the first turn, then setting them both up to wreck faces T1, consolidate into even more targets, and then allow Luigi to penetrate* even further into enemy lines and take out even MOAR characters and/or backfield units. As I played them, they were on opposite ends of the board and Luigi did not get the re-rolls from Lemartes or the OW protection from Mario which played a pretty big part in T2.

-Litanies/Chaplains: my choice of Lemartes came down to the morning of the game. I originally built with Astorath for ALL THE LITANIES, but the more I thought about it, the more I liked the free buffs from Lemartes more, especially since I’d have 3x key units (Smash Bros, DC bomb) that could benefit. Yes, TAW gives re-rolls anyways, but I like the redundancy. Then, thinking even more, I went back to the idea I had of a vanilla chaplain w/ the Special Issue Wargear Icon of the Angel. That would allow charge re-rolls for all units, not just DC (so SG, Meph, and Incursors et al would benefit), I could still get Adamantium Will as WLT, and I could still cast 1x Litany, same as Lemartes. I ended up settling on Lemartes for reasons I’m not entirely sure of, but I feel that Chaplain + IotA idea is sound enough to try to validate.
—Once again, the +2” to charges from Canticle of Hate was nice, but the true sauce was the 6” Pile-In. That continues to provide some serious shenaniganery in our favor….and that’s even though I keep forgetting there’s also a 6” consolidate with it!

-Doctrines: If we are forced to start in Devastator Doctrine, than other factions should be forced out of it automatically in Turn 2 and be forced to blow a CP to stay in it. More on this in the “Thoughts on Iron Hands” section below. I did find out that I have been playing it wrong, since I thought every Faction with access to Combat Doctrines had to go into Tactical Doctrine in Turn 2 unless they had a Stratagem or special ability (looking at you, UM) to let them go back or forward a doctrine. I have now learned that you can stay in DevDoc as long as you want with no penalty, and then when you go TacDoc you can stay there all game if you want, etc… Which I think is more forgiving, but also effects stabby armies all the more so…as if melee wasn’t tough enough. I think it would be more balanced if everyone had their “good” turn and then had to spend resources to get there/stay there and then make do with their “bad” turns, or if everyone could stay/advance 1 step for free (even once per battle). As is now, it’s a bit unbalanced.
-I know I know, here i am saying “unbalanced” in a world where currently SM and BA have Combat Doctrines and no other factions in the game have anything close. I’m guessing everyone gets something down the road to even the playing field.
-Turn 3+ was a nice little boost….except that so many units were already locked in combat that I did not get the +1A anywhere near as much as I “ought” to have.
-It was cute to be able to pop off AP-4 plasma pistols and swing w/ AP-4 swords. But I forgot to give my Incursors AP-1 on their fists. Doh!

HIS DUDES::
-Thoughts on Iron Hands: in case anyone needed a reminder, they are a force and they are here to stay. Hot damn was it fun (in a way that would terrify any actual soldier) to face them since they are the real deal. A couple of us were talking after the game about the IH and what makes them just so frightening. The fact that they are a decidedly shooty army in a decidedly shooty edition. The fact that they have great vehicles in an edition where it’s much much much harder to efficiently kill vehicles. The fact that they get buffs to both offense (Heavy weapon shooting) and defense (FNP, vehicle repairs) AND overwatch. But to me, I think the thing that puts them over the top is their ability to stay in Devastator Doctrine all game….for free. So many of their buffs are tied to the Dev doctrine, and they do not ever have to change it for any reason.

-Counter-assault: while I am not dialed into the ITC circuit to judge how “good” his list is compared to whatever the talking heads say, I do think his list was quite well put together. The right balance of scary shooting (that Whirlwind Scorpius was waaaaaaay better than I ever thought reading its data sheet), cheap screening units (Tacs + Intercessors), and counter-punch units. Speaking of which, the Ironclad, Redemptor, and Master of the Forge are all dirty at charging into combats you’re already locked into. Smash Capt Mario would have been dead 3 times over from the <Character> Ironclad if not for me burning most of my CP on Strats and rolling fortuitously to keep him alive. In many ways, even more than scary shooting, I think counter-assault is one place where BA (and especially my BA) have particularly struggled….if your’e not wiping units, you’re setting yourself up to get charged as well and then you’re at a disadvantage.

-Thunderfire cannon units are like LT’s: once deployed, they count as 2x separate units for all rules purposes, though the Tech gunner has <Character>. I mention this since there was a bit of confusion at first where he tried to use the T6 cannon to take wounds for both (more confusion than malevolence) but we got it sorted. However, just a friendly reminder for when anyone faces That Guy.

-IH Land Speeders: I find it funny just how often GW suffers from The Law of Unintended Consequences. Kind of like how White Scars Centurions ruled the day in 7th ed (hilarious b/c WS have longstanding fluff about how they hate Terminator/Dreadnought suits b/c they feel trapped in heavy armor), there are few depictions of IH being a Fast Attack kind of army (I think they actually are restricted to a single FA slot in 30k in some cases, IIRC), yet RAW, Land Speeders may be one of the best options in the current IH book. You get a zippy unit that is just hard enough not to be easily bolter’d to death yet not hardy enough to cost more and can move + shoot with no penalty and gets AP+1 and re-rolls 1’s to Heavy weapons with DevDoc for them, and can <Fly> away from being locked up, and on top of that. I am surprised we don’t see LS spam in more IH lists.

 

-His plan: afterwards, he revealed that his plan was to castle up in a corner and shoot the snuff out of everything (duh!), but with the nuances of being able to break off vehicles like the sicaran with support from Chars to spread things out and make CQC armies get kited along (that definitely worked in the last turns). He also was testing out the Land Raider Achilles as a Distraction Carnifex...he didn't plan for it to do much and had been historically disappointed in its damage output. That part of the plan worked like a charm for him since I sent Mario right at that thing and committed forces to keeping it turned off as much as possible, taking them away from other targets.

 

ITC FORMAT:

-I’ve been a bit harsh on the ITC vs “regular” 40k divide, but I have to say this was the most fun I’ve had in ITC. And there’s two reasons for that:
—A. the ITC battles app. My opponent told me to d/l it the night before and honestly, that made refreshing on the ITC rules and format incredibly easy. Despite a career in the tech world** I have a luddite streak to me…so I’m loathe to admit the “there’s an app for that” mindset can solve everything…but this one sure came close
—B. my opponent. This is another obvious one that is said time and time again, but the attitude of the person you play with makes all the difference in the world

Closing:
Most epic part of the game on my end was the sheer amount of my dudes were able to make miraculous saves against. Mephy limped through 4 turns on a single wound, the Sang Ancient suffered barely made it alive with 1 wound, Captain Smash (Luigi) had only 1 wound left before even hitting anything, and Captain Smash (Mario) went 3 turns of taking Ironclad hammers and other things to the face before finally succumbing to Tactical fist spam.

Despite the harsh reputation they are already building in such a short time, I really love the fact that the Iron Hands are getting the love they’ve been neglected for the past 20 years. Sure, some things can be tweaked, but I can’t really be that mad that of all the factions possible, Iron Hands are the boogeymen for once.

I also can’t emphasize how much fun I have with my opponent, an officer at my local club and definitive This Guy ( https://1d4chan.org/wiki/This_Guy ). I’ve played him a number of times over the years and it is always a great time. The icing? His favorite faction in the fluff has been Iron Hands since he was a kid. If ever there is a person that deserves to relish in the current meta, it’s him. It would have been a pleasure regardless of the outcome of the game.


*yea, I’m not gonna hyperlink that. Watch (not at work!) on your own if you dare.
*hehehe….he said penetrate…

 

Edit: typos/formatting

Edited January 2, 2020 by Indefragable

[brother_b]

Great report. I’m basically not a fan of ITC it’s not really warhammer to me just my opinion. I do enjoy a good report and tactical analysis and good for your friend he’s got a nice army finally.

 

My question is how did his tactical marines perform? I’m surprised he brought those, it being a supposedly cut throat tournament list and you know the internet hating on tacticals and what not.

[tychobi]

That was a weak iron hands list. Glad it went well tho! I like your list. Nasty stuff!

[Indefragable]

Great report. I’m basically not a fan of ITC it’s not really warhammer to me just my opinion. I do enjoy a good report and tactical analysis and good for your friend he’s got a nice army finally.

 

My question is how did his tactical marines perform? I’m surprised he brought those, it being a supposedly cut throat tournament list and you know the internet hating on tacticals and what not.

I have mixed feelings on ITC (a topic for another time), but I play it on occasion. 

 

His Tacs were there to hold objectives and screen his big units while being slightly hardier than Scouts. In that purpose I think they served him quite well. He pulled a number of points from one of them being “Engineers” and managed to plink off a number of wounds from things, including the death blow to Capt Smash.

 

Like so many things, it’s all about context and how you plan to use them. One of the reasons the above BR is so long is to try to show the planning vs execution. So often “analysis” is just looking at lists and declaring which one will win as opposed to the hundreds of little moves you make over the course of a game that can clench victory from the jaws of defeat etc...

 

In my opponent’s case he had a plan for them and they served it well. Simple as that. 

 

That was a weak iron hands list. Glad it went well tho! I like your list. Nasty stuff!

And what would a “good” IH list be? Flyer spam or another flavor of the week?

[Panzer]

With 3, I never used the Sgt’s ability since the trench math seemed like more total shots is always greater than less shots with half being marginally better; an extra shot not only increases chance to hit, but total potential damage from getting lucky far outweighs the reliability of hitting. But then again, they didn’t perform so maybe I’m wrong about that?

 

Well ... yes. :D

As long as there are two models to buff it's practically always better to have the Sergeant buffing them. Everything else would be a gamble for that sweet damage spike you could potentially get with a third weapon shooting instead.

[Majkhel]

Great report and congratulations on your victory, however narrow! :)

I will be the one saying that 4 mines in as many Incursor squads is 2 too much :) And I think that you could indeed place them during combat, however placing them more than 3" from any enemy models and within 1" of a model carrying one, could be tricky to pull off. 

Also in the Incursors topic - I'm not convinced on going full-Incursors. They do have that important T1 threat option and are more durable than scouts, but for me they lack teeth in said T1. Personally I'm thinking on supporting them with auto bolt rilfe Intercessors.

 

I also totally agree with you on Mephy. 

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

On the subject of doctrines: I feel the same way as you. Except I feel that assault doctrine is a trap for us.

I would personally stay in devastator all game long.

[Indefragable]

 

With 3, I never used the Sgt’s ability since the trench math seemed like more total shots is always greater than less shots with half being marginally better; an extra shot not only increases chance to hit, but total potential damage from getting lucky far outweighs the reliability of hitting. But then again, they didn’t perform so maybe I’m wrong about that?

 

Well ... yes.

As long as there are two models to buff it's practically always better to have the Sergeant buffing them. Everything else would be a gamble for that sweet damage spike you could potentially get with a third weapon shooting instead.

 

 

I'm not a mathematician, but S5 vs T4, 3 shots at BS3+ comes out to roughly 1.34 wounds before saves on T4 while 2 shots, 1 at BS2+ and the other at BS3+ comes out to like .99 wounds before saves. Please enlighten me.

 

Great report and congratulations on your victory, however narrow!

 

I will be the one saying that 4 mines in as many Incursor squads is 2 too much And I think that you could indeed place them during combat, however placing them more than 3" from any enemy models and within 1" of a model carrying one, could be tricky to pull off. 

Also in the Incursors topic - I'm not convinced on going full-Incursors. They do have that important T1 threat option and are more durable than scouts, but for me they lack teeth in said T1. Personally I'm thinking on supporting them with auto bolt rilfe Intercessors.

 

I also totally agree with you on Mephy. 

 

What I'm struggling with is the fact that Incursors and Infilitrators are nearly identical to Intercessors beyond the GL's and rifles and the Sgt's melee weapons; they're all T4 2W 3+ 2A. Unlike Scouts where the "platform" unit is significantly different from a Tactical Marine (T4 1W 1A 4+ Infiltrate vs T4 1W 1A 3+ w/ special weapons), Primaris Troops don't seem that much different--beyond weapons which I will compare below--and so all things being equal, the ability to Infilitrate and thus have a mobility (deployment) bonus is a factor I just can't get over.

 

Veteran Intercessors change things, of course, but that's only a single unit and costs more (CP).

 

Weapons:

Hidden Content

 

Intercessors:

-Bolt Rifles: 30" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-1 (AP-2 TacDoc) D:1. Can be boosted via 1CP Stratagem

-Stalker Bolt Rifles: 36" Heavy 1 S4 AP-2 (AP-3 DevDoc) D:2. Can be boosted via 3CP Stratagem

-Auto Bolt Rifles: 24" Assault 3 S4 AP0 (AP-1 TacDoc) D:1. Can be boosted via 1CP Strategem

-Fists: S4 AP0 D:1

-Sgt melee weapons (you can figure this one out)

 

Infilitrators

-Marksman bolt carbine: 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP0 D:1 6's To Hit auto Hit and auto Wound

-Fists: S4 AP0 D:1

-X-Factor: Can get re-roll support anywhere on the board with Comms Array + Phobos Capt + Phobos LT

-X-Factor: Can get built in apoth support from Helix Adept squad upgrade

 

Incursors

-Occulus bolt carbine: 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP0 D:1 Ignores Cover, ignores any To Hit modifiers

-Paired combat blades: S4 AP0 D:1 6's To Hit = 2 Hits instead

 

 

On the subject of doctrines: I feel the same way as you. Except I feel that assault doctrine is a trap for us.

I would personally stay in devastator all game long.

What units you have that get mileage out of which Doctrine logically determines which one you should aim for. If you have lots of Heavy weapons, than by all means DevDoc. That being said, especially since TacDoc is of less use to BA than other chapters since from one standpoint, we should already be in melee by the time it's active (debatable).

 

My gripe with the system is how much it favors anyone who can make the best use out of DevDoc since you can stay there all game and get up to 7 turns worth of it for free, while someone who wants to be AssDoc can get at most 4 Turns (T3-T7) out of it. I would prefer if there was a go forward once for free ability for all chapters.

[Blindhamster]

Remember. Our buffs happen when charged too. Not just when we charge. Doesnt matter if we are in combat already either.

 

We are actually fairly unique for this too.

 

I.e. getting counter charged really isn't setting us up for a disadvantage

Edited January 2, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Remember. Our buffs happen when charged too. Not just when we charge. Doesnt matter if we are in combat already either.

 

We are actually fairly unique for this too.

 

I.e. getting counter charged really isn't setting us up for a disadvantage

True but my experience has been that by that point very little on the field can have much impact in cc.

[Blindhamster]

From turn 1? Our bonus to wound counts when we get charged from turn 1...

 

Also the last few games I played were decided in turn 3 onwards.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well done, Indy! I've had the same thought about Mephiston actually, or similar thoughts at least. Shut down Wings and he's usually in trouble reaching his intended target, being another Smash Captain-y model after all. His psychic abilities seem to be a bit lacklustre if you compare the special rules to his background. That said, he's still able to beat up every other Librarian-type character I know of, and characters/monsters of most kinds as well.

 

 

I agree with your stance on doctrines. The Dev Doctrine being active automatically is a huge bonus for the chapters which have their special-rules tied to it, and IH are one of the worst offenders. I thought they received some substantial nerfs, though?

 

On the subject of doctrines: I feel the same way as you. Except I feel that assault doctrine is a trap for us.
I would personally stay in devastator all game long.

 

I would disagree actually, it's quite the contrary in my opinion. Favoring the Alpha-Strike-First-Turn-Massacre is what I perceive as a bit of a trap these days. Your investment in command points will be very heavy, and regular points as well. If anything goes wrong, you're already on the backfoot and fighting an uphill battle, throwing more CP at the unit(s) you exposed. Right now, the rules don't favor going all-out in turn 1, so it's best to wait for turn 2 or 3 even, when the heavy weapons had a chance to do their work and weak spots in the opponent's defenses have opened.

 

Savage Echoes, in my opinion, is ghastly to be on the receiving end of. To get it off however, you need to carefully plan your battle, deciding which units to use, when and how. Deepstrike, hold back in your deployment zone, heal, re-locate when needed, move out as a counter-strike. It sounds a bit different from what we're told Blood Angels are about, but it plays better (in my meta at least), you'll have more fun in the game and get to see a turn after 3, usually.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Appreciating the quotes and replies.

I just feel like some many armies are hyper aggressive, how do you hold out for 2 turns?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Appreciating the quotes and replies.

I just feel like some many armies are hyper aggressive, how do you hold out for 2 turns?

Depends on the army you're up against, sadly. I don't think we have Drukhari in our group, so that's one army which I can't say anything about. Otherwise, the general truth - use cover, psychic powers, place your troops on the second level of a ruin (or higher) to make charges more difficult, create road-blocks and isolate threats to take them down one by one.

[Majkhel]

While I'm not sure Tac Doctrine is of less use for us, I'm more than certain we should have some tools available on the field to benefit from it. Those few games I played and watched since we got doctrines tell me that it can be beneficial to wait for the right moment to activate Assault. And that means staying in the TacDoc longer.

[Indefragable]

I don't think we can afford to wait to Turn 3 to get into melee, but nor do I think we ought to be ignoring DevDoc and TacDoc outright either.  Against IH and other shooty armies? In this meta we lose in a stand-up gunfight. Simple fact. "Hiding" in combat serves dual purpose of getting mileage out of Red Thirst as well as hopefully turning off some of their shooting. Against stabby armies like Tyranids (one of the avid ITC players at my club runs 3x20 genestealer bombs) we need to use our noggin' and shoot the stabby ones. That core wisdom has not changed.

[Panzer]

 

 

With 3, I never used the Sgt’s ability since the trench math seemed like more total shots is always greater than less shots with half being marginally better; an extra shot not only increases chance to hit, but total potential damage from getting lucky far outweighs the reliability of hitting. But then again, they didn’t perform so maybe I’m wrong about that?

 

Well ... yes.

As long as there are two models to buff it's practically always better to have the Sergeant buffing them. Everything else would be a gamble for that sweet damage spike you could potentially get with a third weapon shooting instead.

 

 

I'm not a mathematician, but S5 vs T4, 3 shots at BS3+ comes out to roughly 1.34 wounds before saves on T4 while 2 shots, 1 at BS2+ and the other at BS3+ comes out to like .99 wounds before saves. Please enlighten me.

 

Well first of all, no need to be a mathematician for some basic maths.

Secondly it seems you misunderstood how the Sergeant buff works. He doesn't buff just one model. He buffs the whole unit. He also gives a +1 to wound as well, not just a +1 to hit. So it's two shots hitting on a 2+ and a +1 to wound, not just one shot hitting on a 2+ and one at a 3+.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think the IH list that won last months tournament here locally was somewhere around this build. Didn't play against it, but I do know it's pretty strong.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [50 PL, -2CP, 939pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

+ HQ +

 

Iron Father Feirros [6 PL, 110pts]

 

Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 87pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 303pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, Storm cannon array, Storm cannon array

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [27 PL, 1CP, 567pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [1CP]

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [26 PL, 5CP, 445pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Boltgun, Servo-arm

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Total: [103 PL, 4CP, 1,951pts] ++

 

[Majkhel]

I think the IH list that won last months tournament here locally was somewhere around this build. Didn't play against it, but I do know it's pretty strong.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [50 PL, -2CP, 939pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

+ HQ +

 

Iron Father Feirros [6 PL, 110pts]

 

Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 87pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 303pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, Storm cannon array, Storm cannon array

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [27 PL, 1CP, 567pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [1CP]

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [26 PL, 5CP, 445pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Boltgun, Servo-arm

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Total: [103 PL, 4CP, 1,951pts] ++

 

Scary. Has all the toys.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

With 3, I never used the Sgt’s ability since the trench math seemed like more total shots is always greater than less shots with half being marginally better; an extra shot not only increases chance to hit, but total potential damage from getting lucky far outweighs the reliability of hitting. But then again, they didn’t perform so maybe I’m wrong about that?

 

Well ... yes.

As long as there are two models to buff it's practically always better to have the Sergeant buffing them. Everything else would be a gamble for that sweet damage spike you could potentially get with a third weapon shooting instead.

 

 

I'm not a mathematician, but S5 vs T4, 3 shots at BS3+ comes out to roughly 1.34 wounds before saves on T4 while 2 shots, 1 at BS2+ and the other at BS3+ comes out to like .99 wounds before saves. Please enlighten me.

 

Well first of all, no need to be a mathematician for some basic maths.

Secondly it seems you misunderstood how the Sergeant buff works. He doesn't buff just one model. He buffs the whole unit. He also gives a +1 to wound as well, not just a +1 to hit. So it's two shots hitting on a 2+ and a +1 to wound, not just one shot hitting on a 2+ and one at a 3+.

 

 

 

Thank you for the clarification; I have been using them wrong all this time (in the rules, when it says "a model makes an attack" I took it quite literally). This makes them far far better, and the +1 To Wound (which I also previously failed to connect with my brain pan) is also much better. All the more it kinda makes the Sgt an ablative wound and the Instigator bolt rifle seem like the go-to in some ways.

 

I think the IH list that won last months tournament here locally was somewhere around this build. Didn't play against it, but I do know it's pretty strong.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [50 PL, -2CP, 939pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

+ HQ +

 

Iron Father Feirros [6 PL, 110pts]

 

Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 87pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 303pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, Storm cannon array, Storm cannon array

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [27 PL, 1CP, 567pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [1CP]

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Stormhawk Interceptor [9 PL, 189pts]: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [26 PL, 5CP, 445pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Boltgun, Servo-arm

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Total: [103 PL, 4CP, 1,951pts] ++

 

Yea that's a dirty list which I've seen variations of, but I've also seen plenty more lined up closer to the fella I've played (albeit with different vehicles).

[Morticon]

FWIW, i think the natural moving of Doctrines from Dev to Assault helps us hugely.  

I wont go as far as saying if we've built a list that is using Dev Docs all day long then we've done it wrong, but I will say I don't believe that's the best way to build a BA list.  I feel that lists that rely on that Doc are more likely left in the realms of IF and IH.  

For us the move to Tactical helps all our core units with additional AP as they advance up the board, closing the distance.  I think, unlike ANY of the other marine armies, we're actually most suited to make this move. 

 

 Then, and I honestly dont believe it's a trap, the move to assault means pistols and CCWs sees such a notable buff.  Whittled down and damaged units now put out far more than they could have, actually making use of our two basic "chapter tactics" and playing to our strengths. 

For interest sake, a scout squad (lowly 5 man scout squad with bolters) does 1.63 MEQ damage  on the charge usually.  But with BA doctrines active it's literally doubled (3.5).

 

This is also not including any ap1 pistol shots for those units in combat, nor is including the AP1 bolter shots in the preceding turn.

Moving through the Doctrines makes our entire army useful.  

[Panzer]

Yeah I really don't mind progressing through the Dev and Tac doctrines. My army benefits from all of them just fine.

[Jolemai]

My DC tossed a frag grenade at AP -1 on Friday haha :)

 

I felt my current 2k list had a balanced build to move through the Doctrines but it left me feeling that I need to tweak my Devastator loadouts and that I barely used the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Assault Doctrine is nuts and a I love it. My SG were putting out five power fists attacks per person* for two whole turns :O

 

(Shock Assault, Savage Echoes, Unleash Rage)

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

My DC tossed a frag grenade at AP -1 on Friday haha :)

 

I felt my current 2k list had a balanced build to move through the Doctrines but it left me feeling that I need to tweak my Devastator loadouts and that I barely used the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Assault Doctrine is nuts and a I love it. My SG were putting out five power fists attacks per person* for two whole turns :O

 

(Shock Assault, Savage Echoes, Unleash Rage)

To take advantage of those extra attacks do you just hold them back until turn three for the ideal deep strike?

[The Unseen]

I made a list/tested one that tried to take advantage of all 3 doctrines yesterday, along with some other things. My thoughts are as follows.

3 Typhoon Land Speeders in 1 unit buffed with Big Guns Never Tire, and Astorath giving them +1 To-Hit and +1 To-Wound the closest target put 4 krak missile wounds and 3 heavy bolter wounds onto a knight. He passed 3 missile invulns, but still. That is a lot of anti-tank hate. I like the unit, and think I'm gonna keep using it. Late game I had 1 speeder left and it was very helpful in jumping around and grabbing objectives while still contributing missile shots.

Assault Bolter Intercessors are crazy good with doctrines for us, the +1 to advance lets them move just a bit farther turn 1 and still shoot, and a sanguinary ancient with SoS has no trouble keeping up. Turn 2 they don't advance, and pick up ap-1 and can put out a fairly disgusting amount of wounds onto things. Turn 3, they absolutely shred things in melee, had Astorath giving them rerolls to hit and a sanguinary priest next to them, so they each had 4 Str5 -1Ap attacks rerolling to hit+ Red Thrist.

 

I don't see myself ever running a list without Astorath again, he just provides way to much utility for his price, and if you give him Mantra of Strength he's one of the best beatsticks in our codex, behind Smash and Mephiston. He can know both of the shooting buffs, and still know rerolls in the fight phase, Invocation of Destruction, AND Strength.  Hilariously enough, with a Priest backup and said Mantra, he hits Str8 and can cleave knights with his axe, doing either D3+1 on a 4 to wound, or 4 flat damage on a 5-6.

 

Finally, not sold on Incursors, they did plink wounds off with their bolters, and hit ok in melee, but I think I'd still rather have scouts, thanks to how much cheaper they are, and the ability for the sergeants to pack an actual melee weapon, like a power sword. Incursors took on some red corsair CSM, and the lack of AP till turn 3 really made them feel wimpy.