Deathwing Champions: really?

[Angel of Solitude]

Earlier this week I played a casual doubles game, in which I brought along a mixed Greenwing/Deathwing list. In my Deathwing was 5 DWK, Belial, a Librarian, an Ancient, and a Champion. Following the CA2019 points drop, I thought I'd give them a try.

 

Unsurprisingly, the DWK did a pretty good job of surviving and causing havoc in the enemy's back field. Make their charge more reliable, and combined with an Ancient they pack a massive punch.

 

The Ancient is also a reasonable force multiplier, but I'm not sure of the optimal weapons load out. Power Fist and Storm Bolter means that he has some ranged bite to him (e.g. he fails a charge), but the -1 to hit is frustrating, so perhaps twin lightning claws may be better.

 

The Librarian was good too - Righteous Repugnance failed both times on casting, but he managed to cast -1 to hit on the Tank Commander.

 

Then...the Champion. He didn't really make an impact for me. Possibly I wasn't using him to his best effect, i.e. against infantry, but his damage output was probably similar to that of one of my DWK. Yet he's...90 points? I'd honestly have been better off taking another two DWK and adding a couple of Heavy Bolters to my scout squads. Or perhaps another Librarian to support the Greenwing...

 

Am I missing something with the DW Champion?

[sneakybamsen]

I don't think you are missing anything, just think of when he was way more points than he is now...

 

The champions and ancients shouldn't cost much more than lieutenants in my honest opinion, and even at that point I would still probably not even get to use them.

[Berzul]

Champions, ancients and apothecaries, in my opinion, are all still overprized, and do a lot less than what you would expect them to do.

 

In terms of champions, I just go for the Company Champion. Greenwing beat stick, to hamg back with my gunline for whem the enemy comes knocking.

[Skywrath]

I will be testing my Deathwing Champion with a guy on this forum tommorow, I'll let you know how it turns out. Personally (in my limited experience), I expect him to perform similarly to a Knight-Master (with the Flail of the Unforgiven). From what I read about his weapon (Halberd of Caliban)..

 

Each time the bearer fights, it can make D3 additional attacks with the weapon if the target unit contains 5 or more models.

 

Wouldn't this imply he would be useful in a "swarm" situation? I.e poxwalker pack, etc springs to mind? And if so, maybe he didn't work because he is tailored specifically to that scenario, and there wasn't one in your game? Not trying to sound arrogant (I'm still learning). 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Skywrath

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks both. 40 points for a Company Champion seems a bit more sensible - another 50points for the ability to deep strike, an extra wound, a 2+ instead of 3+, and the ability to do another D3 attacks against infantry? Just does not add up!

[Angel of Solitude]

Wouldn't this imply he would be useful in a "swarm" situation? I.e poxwalker pack, etc springs to mind? And if so, maybe he didn't work because he is tailored specifically to that scenario, and there wasn't one in your game? Not trying to sound arrogant (I'm still learning).

It's not arrogant at all - it's a very fair question. I perhaps was limited because my DW were going up against vehicles instead of infantry, so I didn't get the additional benefit of the Halberd. But this is where the stats of the Halberd are just odd.

 

First, it's S+3, making you S7 in the absence of other buffs. For chaff infantry - such as cultists, infantry - that's quite inefficient as you only need S6 to wound on 2+. Again against Space/Chaos Marines, it's also inefficient as you need S8 to hit on 2+, and your 3+ starts at S5. T7 vehicles - such as Rhinos, Predators, Chimeras - is where you really get the benefit of S7. In my case, I was lumping him into Chimeras.

 

Second, it's AP-4. Anything with a 3+ gets no save (absent of any modifiers). Great for Space Marines and vehicles - the Chimera has a 3+ - but otherwise inefficient for just clearing chaff.

 

Finally, D3 wounds is frustrating. For chaff it's overkill as they're usually 1 wound. Against Primaris (or anything with more than one wound), it's unreliable as you may end up taking only a single wound.

 

I guess what they're trying to get you to do is to go fluffy, play The Lion and the Wolf to get +1S, making you wound T4 models on a 2+. Then you become a fearsome Space Marine killer. Charge a squad of marines and accompanying character to get 5 base attacks. 1 attack goes on the squad to get the extra D3 attacks. Then you can take out the character with your remaining 4+d3 attacks, hitting on 2+ with re-roll, wounding on 2+, and forcing an invulnerable save (if they have one).

 

As Berzul alludes to though - there are better ways of going about doing this. 90 points is 5 points under a Company Champion and a squad of close combat scouts...

[Berzul]

I made that breakdown in another thread a while back. Before the CA2019.

 

In the end, you are paying over twice the value of a regular champion (and before, you were paying almost three times the value of one), for a champion that has the same profile, sans a +1 to Wounds, a -1" to Movement, a 2+/5++ armor, and can Deepstrike. A terminator for whom the Deathwing Special Rules for the champion really are mostly irrelevant, and also makes no use of Grim Resolve at all.

 

If you compound this to the weird role he is meant to play in the army, be becomes very hard to actually use effectively.

 

In my experience, he is best used in small games. I sometimes bring one for 1000 point lists, where he can actually make a difference in the killcount without getting overwhelmed or sniped out quickly by a larger enemy force. But I still hardly use him at all.

 

Cost efficiency considered, the only characters in the old command squads that I feel are worth taking at all, are the following (and even then, in very specific cases):

 

1) Company Ancient next to a plasma gunline, be it a backline of Devastators with Plasma Cannons, or a mid-line of Plasma Tacticals.

 

2) Company Champion next to a mid-line of Plasma Tacticals (since you need this guy to counter a charge, but also close enough to the front lines to get into melee)

 

3) Deathwing Ancient with Deathwing Knights, and if you have a Warlord with Master of Maneuver near (otherwise, since you ca only have ONE dice rerolled, either he will get into combat alone, or he will be left behind, most times)

 

4) Ravenwing Apothecary, almost any time (and also almost never, since he IS the most useful of all Apothecaries by far, but at the same time the apothecary ability is usualy underwhelming in regular marines list, where most models have only 1 Wound).

 

I pretty much ALWAYS play a team of 3 by 5 tacticals, with plasma guns and combi plasmas, so I will almost ALWAYS take a company ancient. Sometimes I'll bring a company champion too. My deathwing ancient has been on the bench for a while, but I might bring him out again in a game soon. My ravenwing apothecary is a good unit in theory, but I haven't played apothecaries in a long, long, LONG time, due to very bad results with them overall in healing models.

 

Now, one list I did play a couple of times that I liked, and made use of apothecaries, was a Deathwing team that had 2 squads supported by a Master and a Lieutenant, marching up the board under a Shroud, with one dedicated apothecary per squad, and some air support in the form of a Dark Talon for catching stray enemies that managed to get beyond my reach. It was a nice little formation that maaged to survive against most stuff when I played it, and it was a LOT of fun!

[Angel of Solitude]

Now you see this goes to show how "casual" my list was from earlier in the week. Not only did I take a Deathwing Champion, but I also took a Chapter Ancient to support my 10-man Hellblaster blob!

 

I see now that the Chapter Ancient is a full 32 points more than the Company Ancient. The additional benefit is essentially a +1BS for when you successfully make a 4+ roll. Damn that's expensive...especially since you have Azrael nearby giving you re-roll all hits.

[Berzul]

Chapter Ancient has always read like a waste of points for me. Never tried it, so I have NO personal experience with him, but yeah... paying 32 points? For a +1BS to ONE shot that has only a 50% chance of going off anyway? ... No thanks.

[Darmor]

Chapter Ancient has always read like a waste of points for me. Never tried it, so I have NO personal experience with him, but yeah... paying 32 points? For a +1BS to ONE shot that has only a 50% chance of going off anyway? ... No thanks.

One shot?

Maybe I've mistaken, but the rule says "shoot with one of the weapons". That means a plasma cannon (for example and because you'll actually bringing the banner for them) would make its Heavy D3 shots.

[Berzul]

Im sorry. I meant that, the model shoots, then is removed.

 

You get one attack, and thats it. That +1BS is not worth the extra cost

[Gederas]

Personally, I feel the Deathwing Champion is a bit.... Schizoid.

 

He's got the standard Champion "I like to fight single targets!" thing, and then has the bonus against hordes.... Which ends up making him just confused at what his role is. As he's hilariously overkill on normal Chaff, and inefficient against Marine chaff.

 

I really hope that he gets an updated Datasheet, because man. He's such a cool model, but so confused in what he wants to do :lol:

[Skywrath]

Just a slightly related, but overly unrelated update about the Deathwing Champion. After utilising him in a 2400 point game (me and an ultramarine vs a blood angel player), he barely saw any use, and his attacks were mediocre at best, even with re-rolls happening. Berzul is absolutely correct. Hopefully PA fixes him. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Skywrath