How can we deal with Blood Angels?

[War Angel]

A lot of blood angels in my AO, and they all do the same two things. A 24inch a turn librarian dreadnaught, and an un-overwatch-able smash captain who declares everything within 12 inches of him as a target before making some stupid laugh about how he’s immune to overcharge.

 

So I’ve got one idea for a counter, 10 stalker intercessors and a 2 point stratagem to deal 2-3 damage a wound (depending on chapter, personally I play imperial fist) should do the trick for one character a turn. But what other methods of dealing with this duo do we have? And if they get first turn do we have any options? Surely there’s some way to make consequences come from charging 40 models.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Smash captains are only moderately good at infantry killing, if you just max out on scouts and stuff hes going to be wasting a lot of swings trying to get through the chaff

[tychobi]

Screens are your friend. The dread you can see coming so feed it something cheap. Smash capt can drop in with a 3d6+1 reroll no overwatch charge. If you field big infantry squads auspex scan is your main defence. Leave a juicy charge and delete on arrival. If not screen out with disposable units. My feeling is you are going to get charged. Dont panic, limit your losses and remove the threat. A good list can juggle alpha charges without much trouble. Warptime, dark matter crystal, da jump, scouts, warsuits, pods, kraken slingshot stealers, the first round charge is alive and well. Plan for it! Fade, castle, screen, null deploy, map saturate, chaff, look to your tool belt and find the move you missed that could have saved you for maximum improvement. Ask you blood angel opponent what you could have done. Good luck!

[War Angel]

Oh I killed it with my chapter master right after, I just don’t want him to be able to charge a tank. Wth their stupid + 1 to wound they wound everything on a 2+ unless it’s T8

[jeremy1391]

Simple... shoot them and use screens

[Panzer]

You can't keep a Blood Angel from charging just like they can't keep you from shooting something and that's a good thing since melee shouldn't be worse than shooting all the time.

Marines can't do screens very well and any kind of screen you could put up the Blood Angels could kill via shooting before charging. Your only chance to prevent deep strike charges from happening would be Infiltrators but those are quite expensive. Also the Phobos Captain iirc.

Those won't protect you against the Librarian Dreadnought/Mephiston on Wings or Furlorn Fury Death Company though. Better focus on not having too much of your armies potential focussed in a few models. Redundancy is key. Also focus on what you can do after your important units got charged. Melee often tends to leave a unit way out of position, especially something like a Smash Captain or Librarian Dread.

 

Last but not least .... just shoot him to death. You play Imperial Fists. Dakka Centurion spam is scary as hell.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Panzer

[MajorNese]

Marines can't do screens very well and any kind of screen you could put up the Blood Angels could kill via shooting before charging.

With jump units charging across units, there are very few methods of actually screening the base of a large unit.

Squads screening the base/hull could get shot until they lose one or two models, that would be enough for a smash captain. Casting Shrouding on a Phobos unit would make them untargetable, or use characters to screen in the first place. Or deploy larger/more squads around the target, so the first casualties are the ones not in contact with the target unit. Very obscure and niche methods, not really feasible and often countered with the fight-twice strat...

 

 

You can't keep a Blood Angel from charging just like they can't keep you from shooting something and that's a good thing since melee shouldn't be worse than shooting all the time.

I don't think an unstoppable one-use doomsday missile is actually good for the game. Since GW made hammers more costly in response, I don't think they do either...

[Panzer]

 

 

 

You can't keep a Blood Angel from charging just like they can't keep you from shooting something and that's a good thing since melee shouldn't be worse than shooting all the time.

I don't think an unstoppable one-use doomsday missile is actually good for the game. Since GW made hammers more costly in response, I don't think they do either...

 

 

Me neither and that comment wasn't directed at just the Captain but Blood Angels in general. Something WILL charge you and it WILL hurt you. If not the Captain then something else.

[MajorNese]

Me neither and that comment wasn't directed at just the Captain but Blood Angels in general. Something WILL charge you and it WILL hurt you. If not the Captain then something else.

Something else is something you can screen with the usual mechanics of the game, and lose your screens as a result, that's business as usual.

 

But in this case, the two things OP has an issue with are the librarian dread (which I have no idea about) and said un-overwatchable unpreventable smash captain.

And to prevent the latter from reaching a certain single unit, it does take a lot of hoops to jump through. Meaning: Untargetable screens, so no gap at all presents itself. Screening units kept out of LoS, characters, and niche stuff like FW Rapier crews - they are untargetable with the same wording as characters, but not characters, meaning even snipers can't get around that restriction. That has nothing to do with skill or game mechanics, just with nitpicking rules to oblivion to prevent a single overpowered unit.

[Panzer]

If you can screen a regular 5 man unit you should also be able to screen a Librarian Dread.

 

Not sure why you think you have to rant about the Captain missile right now. As I said, I'm not disagreeing, however it's not really on topic whether such a thing should exist or not either. It exist, period. Just like units with too much ranged output exist. Nothing we can do about that except for moaning which helps nobody.

So at the end of the day ... the Captain will reach you and will hurt. Best thing you can do about it is to prepare something to kill him after he charged something because Marines simply don't have the bodies to create huge screens a Blood Angels player couldn't shoot enough to create a gap for the Captain.

[War Angel]

I fully believe that if a close combat army commits to close combat he will get something into close combat. However, in this case, it doesn’t seem my opponents always have dedicated close combat. Perhaps they’ve played against each other enough times that they no longer pay the points for the things to love them across the board because they both meet in the center?

 

That said, I have the option to deny at least one thing from getting into combat. So what’s the turn one charge range on the captain? There’s a stray that lets him move before turn one, so that’s 12 inches, then there’s turn one move, 24, and finally a 12 inch charge. So I can either stay out of 36 inches (ouch) or feed him a single cheap unit, intercessors are the cheapest Primaris unit correct? If I put them up front, he can’t move as far, but he could shot them down and charge past. If I put a second squad 8 inches away he can’t charge both. How many points is the captain and am I thinking about this the right way? Honestly I don’t see the value of it all if he’s only getting 85 points

[Panzer]

I fully believe that if a close combat army commits to close combat he will get something into close combat. However, in this case, it doesn’t seem my opponents always have dedicated close combat. Perhaps they’ve played against each other enough times that they no longer pay the points for the things to love them across the board because they both meet in the center?

 

That said, I have the option to deny at least one thing from getting into combat. So what’s the turn one charge range on the captain? There’s a stray that lets him move before turn one, so that’s 12 inches, then there’s turn one move, 24, and finally a 12 inch charge. So I can either stay out of 36 inches (ouch) or feed him a single cheap unit, intercessors are the cheapest Primaris unit correct? If I put them up front, he can’t move as far, but he could shot them down and charge past. If I put a second squad 8 inches away he can’t charge both. How many points is the captain and am I thinking about this the right way? Honestly I don’t see the value of it all if he’s only getting 85 points

 

The turn 1 threat range of a Blood Angels Captain with Jump Pack is virtually infinite. There's a Stratagem that allows for a Blood Angels model with Jump Pack to be repositioned as if it's coming from reserves which then can be followed up by a Stratagem for a 3d6 charge (also +1 from the Chapter tactic, also re-rolls from the Jump Pack relic). Note that the 3d6 Stratagem still doesn't allow to declare targets above 12" for a charge though.

Another Stratagem allows a Death Company unit to make a move (including advance) before the game begins which also works on Captains if they got turned into a Death Company Captain via another Stratagem.

[War Angel]

Do blood angles get combat doctrines or something similar to them?

[SallyForth]

I use tons of infantry. Big aggressor blob, surrounding Adrax Agataone and a Chaplain, flanked by two intercessor squads w/hammers. SOMETHING is going to heroically intervene into that smash cap, probably something he didn’t intend to fight (thanks to Born Protectors). Whatever he doesn’t kill is going to kill him, and he’s just traded his elite character for a basic infantry squad.

 

Also, pop Transhuman Physiology against thunder hammers.

[MajorNese]

So what’s the turn one charge range on the captain? There’s a stray that lets him move before turn one, so that’s 12 inches, then there’s turn one move, 24, and finally a 12 inch charge. So I can either stay out of 36 inches (ouch) or feed him a single cheap unit, intercessors are the cheapest Primaris unit correct? If I put them up front, he can’t move as far, but he could shot them down and charge past.

Units with Fly can move and charge across other units, so no, no need to even shoot the screens. As long as there is a free space for the captain's base next to the unit he wants to kill, and he can move within 12" to allow declaring a charge, he'll get there. Either you plug the entire surroundings of the unit you want to screen (and won't get any holes in the shooting phase), or that captain will get there. And even if you can entirely cover the target unit's base, the strat to fight twice means he can kill the screening unit, consolidate into the target unit, and kill the target in one go if necessary.

[War Angel]

 

So what’s the turn one charge range on the captain? There’s a stray that lets him move before turn one, so that’s 12 inches, then there’s turn one move, 24, and finally a 12 inch charge. So I can either stay out of 36 inches (ouch) or feed him a single cheap unit, intercessors are the cheapest Primaris unit correct? If I put them up front, he can’t move as far, but he could shot them down and charge past.

 

Units with Fly can move and charge across other units, so no, no need to even shoot the screens. As long as there is a free space for the captain's base next to the unit he wants to kill, and he can move within 12" to allow declaring a charge, he'll get there. Either you plug the entire surroundings of the unit you want to screen (and won't get any holes in the shooting phase), or that captain will get there. And even if you can entirely cover the target unit's base, the strat to fight twice means he can kill the screening unit, consolidate into the target unit, and kill the target in one go if necessary.

I know, what I mean is I can put one unit up front, and another unit 8 inches away, baring shooting, he can only kill one. Sure he can charge intercessors squad 2 (in the back) but it’s still only 85 points

[Panzer]

Do blood angles get combat doctrines or something similar to them?

 

Yes they get the same Doctrines as vanilla Marines and their bonus is that they get +1 Attack if they charged, got charged or heroically intervened that phase in the Assault Doctrine.

That means from turn 3 on even just the regular Intercessor has 4 AP-1 D1 attacks with +1 to wound if they charged or got charged.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Panzer

[War Angel]

Thanks, I don’t own their codex so I don’t know what all they can do.

[The Unseen]

You aren't stopping the captain

That's his whole point.

If your list relies on 1 centerpiece model and can't handle it going out turn 1/2, you should build a better list that has some redundancies.

 

If you go first and your opponent used forlorn fury on the captain anyway, you can probably snipe him out with good movement, or just charge him with something he doesn't want to fight.

Or if the captain is in reserve or held back to redeploy, spread out and don't let him land within 12" of anything worth killing and make him waste either a turn or 2 cp to charge something like intercessors.

If your going 2nd, the captains going to hammer something, so the key is to either only let him hit something you can handle losing, and make sure you have a plan to deal with his consolidation into another unit to tie up their shooting, or have a countercharge unit that can kill him in the fight phase that turn.

 

Hes a one-shot wonder, so lists that rely on a deathstar style unit like buffed centurions or a single knight are what he absolutely excels at beating.

But I've faced plenty of lists where the captains *best* target is something like a daemon prince with wings or something, or else he just punches infantry all game and never makes his points back before he gets focussed down and killed.

But remember, if he has the ignore overwatch relic jump pack, if you charge him with something he can't kill in 1 turn, he can't fall back and do anything useful.

Like a large blob of intercessors, or something with a substantial invuln like a unit of vanguard veterans with shields.

Then he's stuck in combat next round or falls back and does nothing or burns a bunch or CP to fight twice against a suboptimal target, and BA don't have much CP to spare.

 

The dreads pretty easy, deny wings turn 1.

It's now plodding along at 8" of movement.

(Not 12, his base move is 8, wings let's him move an additional 12 in the psychic phase)

So it is much easier to screen against the dread, since he only moves a max of 20" if he wants to be able to charge.

Wings and quickening will give him a 2d6+3 rerollable charge though, so it's still a long way, but it's still a lot shorter than the captains redeploy with 3d6+1 rerollable charge or 24+d6 movement.

 

Also remember than even though he can get more than 12" of charge movement, you can't declare anything more than 12" away as a target.

 

Other than the melee tricks like that, BA play just like other marines, except we don't get thunderfire cannons, or dev centurions, the best shooting units in vanilla marines.

[Claws and Effect]

If you're playing the mission at all there will be a hole for that smash Captain to drop in and ruin something's day, eventually. You simply can't keep your army positioned to deny him a juicy target and maneuver to capture objectives at the same time.

 

If you block him turn 1 a smart BA player will simply wait until you make an error. Everyone is so worried about smashy's turn 1 threat potential they panic and do whatever they can to deny him a target. A savvy player is going to use that to their advantage.

[War Angel]

Yeah I don’t think I’ll be denying the dread on turn one. I’m not worried about being charged turn one, I’ve got units to screen, and when I do have something big in the table I can easily screen it while getting he objectives. I feel I had a pretty good trade with him. I lost 5 intercessors and two command points to aspex scan his sanguary guard to oblivion. It was my ally’s first game so he took a bit more of a beating but I cleared the lines in my turn. This was without the dread though, so I need to know my enemy so I can lessen the blow as best as possible.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Yeah I don’t think I’ll be denying the dread on turn one. I’m not worried about being charged turn one, I’ve got units to screen, and when I do have something big in the table I can easily screen it while getting he objectives. I feel I had a pretty good trade with him. I lost 5 intercessors and two command points to aspex scan his sanguary guard to oblivion. It was my ally’s first game so he took a bit more of a beating but I cleared the lines in my turn. This was without the dread though, so I need to know my enemy so I can lessen the blow as best as possible.

Wait, you were doing a 2v2 with a new player and your opponents brought a meta list?! That's messed up

[Indefragable]

Every SM faction (and even some Chaos chapters) have a version of a Smash Captain, so the concept is here to stay, for better and worse. The BA one is particularly nasty (if I may say so myself, with some pride) because of the combos of +1 To Wound in melee, +D3+1+1 attacks, possible +1D, and the Forlorn Fury and/or Descent of Angels and/or Upon Wings of Fire strategems. It is a nasty nasty combo, but in some ways it makes BA one note since the rest of the army suffers when so much is poured into one model.

 

Use that to your advantage.

 

As someone who's played BA for a long time, some of the best counters to myself that I have seen have been:

A. Counter-Assault units. As a non-melee faction, you don't need your own melee units to be better than BA/SW/We (they won't be), but just good enough to take them down after they've been softened up by shooting. I had an ITC match against an Iron Hands player who did just that, using Dreadnoughts and characters to pounce on me once my dudes were all wrapped up with him.

 

B. Sacrificial lambs. If you bring a Knight, you know Captain Smash (or the Libby Dread or Mephiston etc...) will be gunning to take out that Knight T1. Sometimes as a commander you need to cut your losses and mitigate that damage; put the Knight on a flank or in a position that once it's dead, whoever killed it is going to be in for a hurting the next turn. If he ignores the Knight (or insert other big scary unit here), than you make him pay by using it. If he goes all-in trying to kill it as soon as possible, you write it off and make sure that is the only thing he can kill.

 

To this day the toughest opponent I've faced in 8th has been a Salamanders mech company (a good friend of mine) who still runs multiple predators and assault cannon razorbacks with plas/combi-plas Tacs in them. It's beauty is it's simplicity in that he has good shooting with all the cheating re-rolls Salamanders get ;) , and then when you do crack open the razorbacks, plasma spills out. It's like a twisted version of the Horrors-Blue Horrors-Brimstone Horrors effect. Also, going with point A above, he also is one of the best players I've encountered when it comes to milking the :cuss out of Heroic Intervention and being able to sneak power fists and thunder hammers into combats of his choosing and killing things on my turn, or waiting until I've wrapped something up and then charging in and nuking me.

[War Angel]

Every SM faction (and even some Chaos chapters) have a version of a Smash Captain, so the concept is here to stay, for better and worse. The BA one is particularly nasty (if I may say so myself, with some pride) because of the combos of +1 To Wound in melee, +D3+1+1 attacks, possible +1D, and the Forlorn Fury and/or Descent of Angels and/or Upon Wings of Fire strategems. It is a nasty nasty combo, but in some ways it makes BA one note since the rest of the army suffers when so much is poured into one model.

 

Use that to your advantage.

 

As someone who's played BA for a long time, some of the best counters to myself that I have seen have been:

A. Counter-Assault units. As a non-melee faction, you don't need your own melee units to be better than BA/SW/We (they won't be), but just good enough to take them down after they've been softened up by shooting. I had an ITC match against an Iron Hands player who did just that, using Dreadnoughts and characters to pounce on me once my dudes were all wrapped up with him.

 

B. Sacrificial lambs. If you bring a Knight, you know Captain Smash (or the Libby Dread or Mephiston etc...) will be gunning to take out that Knight T1. Sometimes as a commander you need to cut your losses and mitigate that damage; put the Knight on a flank or in a position that once it's dead, whoever killed it is going to be in for a hurting the next turn. If he ignores the Knight (or insert other big scary unit here), than you make him pay by using it. If he goes all-in trying to kill it as soon as possible, you write it off and make sure that is the only thing he can kill.

 

To this day the toughest opponent I've faced in 8th has been a Salamanders mech company (a good friend of mine) who still runs multiple predators and assault cannon razorbacks with plas/combi-plas Tacs in them. It's beauty is it's simplicity in that he has good shooting with all the cheating re-rolls Salamanders get ;) , and then when you do crack open the razorbacks, plasma spills out. It's like a twisted version of the Horrors-Blue Horrors-Brimstone Horrors effect. Also, going with point A above, he also is one of the best players I've encountered when it comes to milking the :cuss out of Heroic Intervention and being able to sneak power fists and thunder hammers into combats of his choosing and killing things on my turn, or waiting until I've wrapped something up and then charging in and nuking me.

Can you not just declare the powerfist unit as part of your charge and then if he heroic intervenes you can kill that first?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Only if it’s in the charging unit’s 12’’ charge range.