The Siege of Terra: Sons of the Selenar

[StrangerOrders]

This is one of the most confusing plot mcguffins I have seen in a while to go from descriptions.
 
So the Emp conquered Luna with the Legions which he would have needed the now hidden Magna Mater to create in the first place and they fought their wars on Terra with the traits that would only be that pronounced post-Selenar? Someone should tell Astarte
 
To go by the spoilers on reddit, he has also already created the Primarchs with data which he could not have had yet but apparently needed.
 
And apparently, only women can be trusted to create things? And the Emp had inferior knowledge (which makes the Custodes a bit confusing now). Even more confusing of stand for the Selenar to take since the head of the Astartes project was a woman in the first place
 
McNeill can be fun but this is kind of on crack and lore-breaking even by his standards.

[bluntblade]

I always thought the thing with Luna was that the Selenar's arts allowed for massive expansion of the Legions, as they refined the processes involved.

[Beren]

Praetorian of Dorn states that the Emepror could have built the necessary gene-forges himself, but was too impatient.

 

Also,

from what I recall of the discussion of the Valdor book, didn't that mention that the Emperor od Malcador had hidden something on Luna?

 

In addittion, I feel like you're confusing the Selenite's subjective and not all-encompassing knowledge and worldview with an objective factual statement, StrangerOrders.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Beren

[Marshal Rohr]

The Selenar fill the ‘mystic witch Cult’ Sci fi trope. Like the ladies from Dune. Their view about creation, etc is well trod post-apocalypse ground

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, the Emperor was always able to create Astartes, but remember that it wasn't his initial goal. The original plan was to create 20 Primarchs to lead human armies, so that's what his Terran labs were created to facilitate. When the Primarchs got scattered, his plans changed to creating the Astartes, but a facility designed to create 20 masterworks isn't optimal for mass-producing knock-offs. He managed to create enough to unify Terra, but needed the assistance of the Selenar to properly begin mass producing.

[DarkChaplain]

Didn't Valdor have something about the Primarchs being scattered after the first thousands of the Legions were created?

[Lord_Caerolion]

If so, that's a major revision from previous fluff, as the initial background was that the Astartes were created as a replacement of the missing Primarchs.

[bluntblade]

Which is also weird when we have Malcador saying that Primarchs and Legions were always meant to go together. Pretty sure Astartes were always part of the plan.

 

After all, the Thunder Warriors were needed solely to conquer Terra.

Edited January 24, 2020 by bluntblade

[talos402000]

So, no world building for the Selenar or Luna?

[MegaVolt87]

If so, that's a major revision from previous fluff, as the initial background was that the Astartes were created as a replacement of the missing Primarchs.

 

I definitely remember it that way originally. Though the Astartes as being complementary to the primarchs supplanted that for quite a while now as well though. 

[aa.logan]

I’ve really struggled with reading this month; listened to plenty of audiobooks and drama but have barely been able to run my eyes over pages. As a consequence, this book took me far longer to read than it possibly should have done.

 

Yes, like all BL LE’s, it’s horribly overpriced, but the design of the Siege books works especially well for a novella sized volume- looks greats, fits perfectly in the hand and is a delightful reading experience on all ways; I really enjoyed having it in my hands, though I’m stating to worry how the metal devices of the covers of all of these books will stack up...

 

In terms of the story, I think it’s pretty good; some parts would perhaps benefit from being explored more- the internal squabbles and power vacuum that really sell the Shattered Legions for me are present but dealt with quicker than I’d like, while the Luna plot feels like it also deserves a touch more exposition- it ties in well with the Valdor book and the Solar war, but in the present form still feels a little lightweight and throwaway.

 

The novella does the action well, and it certainly does make the conflict seem consequential, there is a definite feeling of jeopardy throughout and while plenty of serious injuries are shrugged off, the Astartes are just the right side of falliable for me.

 

As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread and others, I like the Seventh Serpent, I like Sharrowkyn and I like ‘current’ 40k events being tied back the the Heresy, so I was probably Lways going to like this novella, though I can see why those predisposed to disliking these things may have issues with it. It’s not going to get anyone to reconsider their preconceptions of McNeil and the Sisyphean, but it is a lot of fun and, for me at least, genuinely moving.

 

The Selenar for all their mysticism are nicely human, with little time for Astartes and the damage they've caused (whilst being blind to their responsibilities in the that); there is a nicely cutting line -

 

”so fragile... another side-effect of hyper-aggressive masculine traits. Time is against us and still you look to find fault in warm air passing over my lips” spoken after some of the Iron Hands take umbrage at something said about Ferrus

 

The assault cannons and storm bolters do feel like slipshod editing though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

To be fair, assault cannons did exist, they were just Kheres-pattern, from memory, and only in limited supply.

[aa.logan]

To be fair, assault cannons did exist, they were just Kheres-pattern, from memory, and only in limited supply.

Exactly; they’re described as such and still viewed as notable- in this, from certain characters responses to them, they feel like they pop up all the time. The context in which they appear *should* be remarkable rather than shrugged off as commonplace.

[Petitioner's City]

Also didn't Ahriman think about assault cannons in A Thousand Sons, when referring to the symbolism of its predecessor, the reaper, with its infinity 8 imagery?

[bluntblade]

Reaper was a model of autocannon

[Izlude]

Just finished the book as well. In general, I have really enjoyed the Tyro, Sharrowkyn, Wayland, and Tarsa exploits in the series. The Shattered Legion material is much like the series with some hits and some misses. Some of the shattered legion stuff like Meduson (both the story and the collection) has been some of the best material within the HH series. I personally love Sharrowkyn despite others feelings on him. So on to my thoughts:

 

Book: As has been the case with the SoT so far, the book is gorgeous, just a smaller version of what we have seen. I absolutely love the "marble busts" of key characters and seeing what Wayland and Sharrowkyn look like is great. They totally look badass as well as Tarsa and the Luna witch. Yes the book is pricey but I don't feel ripped off, it is a quality LE for sure. 

 

Story: I will say I think McNeill ended on a very good note here. Not much in the way of action (a good thing) but alot of introspection with the characters we have have seen grow via the series. The focus is mostly on Sharrowkyn and obviously the rest of the crew. I am not sure if it was the cry of Mary Sue from the community but Sharrowkyn was definitely toned down in this book...like I don't even think he kills a single person in this book! We do get some behind scene stuff on Luna and the gene witches (would love more in this area as it has a lot of potential). Towards the end you get closure with the lead characters and is sort of sad. I thought the ending was appropriate and definitely touching to me. Yes the reference in the very end was lost to me until I now read the spoilers...I think it is fine, no different than the Pharos reference. I actually enjoy these sort of links, feels like it makes things more continuous as opposed to isolated things. 

 

All in all I am happy with the book as a LE and also the content. I think if you have been following this story arc (AE and Seventh Serpent) you will not be disappointed. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Izlude

[Roomsky]

This was not bad.

 

It's very restrained for Mcneill, for better or worse. On one hand, it lacks a lot of the eye-rolling self importance of some of his other works; in some ways its even a bit of a sobering look at the Sisypheum crew's role in the war. On the other hand, it lacks the sheer energy that made even Mcneill's worst so endearing. 

 

Story wise, I do think it's a quality send off to these characters, so I'd definitely recommend it if you liked AE and Seventh Serpent. There are some legitimately touching scenes, and a few scenes that make use of slightly more realistic violence that are pretty impactful compared to the rest of Mcneill's body of work. A scene with Tarsa was a particular standout (you'll know it when you read it.) Sharrowkyn retains his unexplained "wisdom" from Seventh Serpent, but is out of his element for most of the story so I didn't have much an issue with him.

 

Elaborating on the lack of energy, it didn't draw me in as much as I'd expected. Mcneill's definitely cooled off in his writing style, but I don't think he's quite settled into it yet. The plot itself mostly comes across as an excuse to close out this narrative, and for that purpose it works well, but as a plot it leaves a lot to be desired. The cast accomplishes feats I would have assumed were impossible under a different author's pen, and some details were clearly abandoned in favor of pushing the story forward. Even so, I'm thankful for the low page count, as its an environment I think the author works better in.

 

It's a worthwhile read if the subject matter is your thing. 

 

To Taste

6.5/10

 

(Personal rankings atm: Saturnine > The Solar War > (Sons of the Selenar) > The First Wall > Lost and the Damned)

[Redrandy93]

Brothers I actually liked the book.   I received a hard cover one some weeks ago and finally read it today.   Was good way to wrap up a small plot and set something up for a later date.    I orginally had hoped a few would survive but not disappointed with the ending.   Glad some of the Sons of Horus got what they deserved!    

[b1soul]

I find McNeill's problem is less restraint, and more a reliance on vague purple prose Edited May 17, 2020 by b1soul

[Kelborn]

Any news about the regular hardback release?

[Knockagh]

It’s already out for preorder on lots of sites shipping 22nd May. Great book get it

[Kelborn]

Oh

Gonna check, thanks!

[Tymell]

Ugh...

 

Apologies for applying the Heart of Iron to this thread and bringing it back, but I just finished this one myself and feel the need to vent somewhat. Yeah, I didn't really care for this one.

 

In fairness, for most of this book I felt it was "fine". Nothing special, but fine. The prose was decent enough, some of the characters got some okay send-offs, it didn't plod or take too long over most things.

 

There are three real problems I had, and to start with the two lesser ones:

 

Branthan's madness/hunger for revenge: it was made into a big thing at the start, to the point of several of the others planning basically a mutiny against him, and then...it's just dropped. The whole plot point disappears, never to be brought up again.

 

Magnus shows up and protects them, but we're still not given any reason for this. Sure, we can infer that it has something to do with the future and Primaris marines, given the overall ending, but it's still totally vague and nebulous. There aren't even any general hints at the reasoning, it just comes across as a complete Deus Ex Machina to have Magnus show up and save them, and it's annoying since we already had a vague "Magnus has an interest in you" hint in the last book. I thought this time we might get some resolution or development on that, but nope, just more mystery for mystery's sake. Setting something up with hints in earlier works is fine, but there needs to be a payoff at some point or it just becomes annoying.

 

And then the big one: the ending itself. The very last line is obviously a "wham" line, a "what a twist!" moment that's supposed to leave the reader with their jaw on the floor at the sudden revelation.

 

Except I haven't read much Guilliman/Cawl/Primaris stuff, so it meant precisely nothing to me. It was a name I didn't recognise, and as I opened up Google to find out what it was, I muttered to myself, "Dammit, did McNeill do it again?" And yes, yes he had. He did the same thing that so annoyed me at the end of Angel Exterminatus, where the final line was a reference to Honsou. A reference that went completely over my head because I never read Storm of Iron. Like that, this big wham line falls flat if you don't have knowledge of what it references, and that's a pretty limp way to end a book.

 

Now, to be fair, this isn't quite so egregious as the Angel Exterminatus example. Then, it came across as almost crass because it was ending the entire book on a reference to one of his own previous works. It felt like it was sticking an advertisement for his other stuff into the ending. This, at least, is referencing a bigger event in the future.

 

But I still really don't like it. Not because I don't like Primaris or I feel like it "breaks the established lore" or anything like that, but because it feels like it turns the entire story, and maybe even the entire saga of the Sisypheum, into nothing more than a plot device to help set up a future event.

 

And I know some might make the case for that applying to the Horus Heresy as a whole, but this feels different to me. I feel like the HH series can be enjoyed as its own thing, it doesn't feel like it's just there to service 40K as a setup.

 

But here, everything feels geared towards that one ending. Their whole mission to Luna, everything to do with the macguffin they get and why they hold onto it rather than just destroying it, it's all in the service of this one setup. When you remove that aspect, the idea that it's planting something for Cawl to use in the eventual creation of Primaris marines, the whole mission feels somewhat empty. Why are they doing it? What does it contribute to the story of the Siege or the wider Heresy conflict? What purpose does the genetic material they retrieve serve?

 

I think it's not helped by how contrived it feels. The Sisypheum just happens to get teleported to safety by the warp rift, and then they just happen to pick up the signal from Luna, and then Magnus just happens to show up to save them, and Sharrowkyn just happens to settle down on an abandoned station which Guilliman will eventually find, all before any of the traitors do. Contrivance doesn't always have to be terrible, but when it's all done just to set up a future thing that barely even connects to the Heresy...yeah, it feels cheap.

 

To be absolutely clear, I have no problem with HH works referencing or setting up later developments. But here it feels too much like that's the entire purpose of this book, rather than it being a good story on its own and also happening to pave the way for more further down the line.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Tymell

[Noserenda]

I just finished it myself and yeaaaaah you are not wrong brother.

I mean he almost says it in the authors note and then basically does it anyway!

Also, while it sort of ties off most points, as far as i can see they never address or resolve the Cyber eagle and its shenanigans?  

[DarkChaplain]

My biggest annoyance with the ending:

 

It basically prevents the Alpha Legion's untainted geneseed, stolen from Corax, from really mattering in the future. There's such a MASSIVE dangling thread whose main architects even intersect with Roboute in the Scouring era, and yet it's just been swept completely under the rug. Instead of using it to make the connection to 8th Edition, it's the merry band of misfits that McNeill generally uses to cross-promote his other works, just so happening to do the right thing in the right place for the right thing to happen while being protected by the right guy who the author even forgot had a thing for them to begin with (according to the afterword).

 

It's just a wet rectal venting, in my eyes. There were plenty of missions for the Sysypheum crew to do in the Sol System - heck, they could've gone and did a thing or two for Mars, since that planet was basically forgotten, and the Iron Hands are supposedly pretty close to the whole machine thingything, but... nah.

 

At this point, I'm starting to think that McNeill only ever resorts to the same handful of characters because he can't keep track of more than those, if even that. He routinely forgets aspects of his own stories and character development, doesn't cross-check other overlapping works, doesn't invent compelling new stuff anymore, often retcons things or plays loose with the fluff... Honestly, a lot of it speaks of a lack of diligence and planning on his end.

Edited June 26, 2020 by DarkChaplain