The Siege of Terra: Sons of the Selenar

[Roomsky]

In fairness to Mcneill, I doubt a single novella as wrap-up was what he planned back when he wrote Seventh Serpent. He chose to focus on resolution for his crew, and while abandoned plothreads and rushed explanations rankle, I think his priority was in the right place. Fury of Magnus may also elaborate a bit on Magnus' interest, who knows?

[Lucerne]

My biggest annoyance with the ending:

 

It basically prevents the Alpha Legion's untainted geneseed, stolen from Corax, from really mattering in the future. There's such a MASSIVE dangling thread whose main architects even intersect with Roboute in the Scouring era, and yet it's just been swept completely under the rug. Instead of using it to make the connection to 8th Edition, it's the merry band of misfits that McNeill generally uses to cross-promote his other works, just so happening to do the right thing in the right place for the right thing to happen while being protected by the right guy who the author even forgot had a thing for them to begin with (according to the afterword).

 

It's just a wet rectal venting, in my eyes. There were plenty of missions for the Sysypheum crew to do in the Sol System - heck, they could've gone and did a thing or two for Mars, since that planet was basically forgotten, and the Iron Hands are supposedly pretty close to the whole machine thingything, but... nah.

 

At this point, I'm starting to think that McNeill only ever resorts to the same handful of characters because he can't keep track of more than those, if even that. He routinely forgets aspects of his own stories and character development, doesn't cross-check other overlapping works, doesn't invent compelling new stuff anymore, often retcons things or plays loose with the fluff... Honestly, a lot of it speaks of a lack of diligence and planning on his end.

Maybe if the Alpha Legion ever gets proper 40k lore, we'll see them put it to better use?

Edited June 26, 2020 by Lucerne

[Indefragable]

Finished the audiobook on Audible.

 

Honestly, I kinda liked it. 

 

Now...did I love it? No. 

Did I think it was necessary? No. 

Was it particularly well done? No. 

 

I think what I liked about it was that it was kind of contained. I kept expecting the characters to end up on the Vengeful Spirit, or having personal conversations with the Emperor or something. Instead what we got was the Millennium Falcon beyond even Chewbacca's skill of repair stumbling into a side story. It reminded me of ADB's Night Lords trilogy to a certain (limited) extent in the sense that for the first time in I cannot remember how long, every bolt shell mattered. This crew felt like they were really at the end of their rope, with the # of munitions they have left countable on one hand and they don't even have any chewing gum left to hold it all together...

 

...yet they still strive to make a difference. To do something actually worthwhile, not just go out in a blaze of glory charging into the guns of the traitor fleet like one of the characters wants. 

 

For its surprisingly restrained scope, I found it rather fun to listen to. Just enough creepy-cool-mystery-makes-me-want-to-know-more-yet-also-please-keep-it-a-mystery factor with the Selanar gene witches of Luna to add something intriguing (the Prologue was a neat little bit I thought). 

Bonus points for Terminators actually feeling like ....Terminators for once: the inexorable doom that will is out there, can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with, doesn't feel pity or fear and  absolutely will not stop ever, until you are dead. 

 

That being said, it was not fully contained since every few paragraphs was a reference to some events that I did not know about, since I have not kept up with these characters since...heck, I don't even remember. They are originally in ​Angel Exterminatus, right? I honestly do not even know where to start if I wanted to read more about them. 

 

I know there are memes about how Mary Sue Sharrowkyn is. I can kinda get that, but did not find anything particularly egregious in this. 

 

It was a fun listen, simple as that. 

[Scribe]

 

I know there are memes about how Mary Sue Sharrowkyn is.

 

Did he remain a ninja, stepping through shadows?

 

I dont believe I read another book with him after Angel Exterminatus, I was so deeply offended by the characters existence. :p

[DarkChaplain]

I... still don't see the issue of a Mor Deythan doing Mor Deythan things and the narrative positioning him as the outsider who doesn't get super excited over somebody he doesn't know or feel attached to. Or about him "killing" Lucius because he - once again - got cocky and underestimated his opponent. And having an Astartes heavily trained in stealth and handling a sniper rifle actually take the shot... That kind of thing is hardly confined to the Assassinorum.

 

He honestly doesn't do anything that I wouldn't expect from an elite Raven Guard character - and it's not like we got many of those as PoV characters, since Deliverance Lost and Corax both focused more on Corax himself and his closest captains.

 

The meme is quite frankly overplayed, and often reinforced by folks who haven't read the Sysypheum arc beyond Angel Exterminatus. The only thing that actually bothers me is that McNeill set him up for something big in The Seventh Serpent, then forgot that he still had to address that in Sons of the Selenar. Not the first time this kind of thing happens with McNeill, though.

 

Regarding the arc as a whole, there's really just Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, AE, The Seventh Serpent and Sons of the Selenar. Kryptos is negligible, so there's simply one novella to read between AE and Selenar, and that's printed in Shattered Legions.

Edited September 2, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[Splog]

Just finished it this morning (having been waiting for the mass market paperback of Buried Dagger before starting on the Siege of Terra). A lot of nice ideas, a good outline of the Selenar, Luna, and the origins of the Luna Wolves. The latter follows on nicely from learning in the Solar War about Abbadon becoming a space marine.

 

It’s almost great/good. On a ‘smaller stage’ it had the scope and imagination of the Solar War but doesn’t follow through on it as well. A bit too much telling rather than showing, a bit too much signposting, a bit too heavy levering to fit things in. At least one point of tension between the crew seemed to dissolve rather than get resolved.

 

There are some lapses. There’s a picture of one of the characters as part contemptor dreadnought, and this seems forgotten at times. At one point the bad guys are all like “there’s only three or four of them, this will be easy” yes but one of them is a dreadnought. Terminator armour seems to be as tough/not-tough as the scene demands. The intervention of Magnus’ ship didn’t seem believable (in terms of the physical action of doing it) to me.

 

The ending was lost on me and I had to look up what it meant, which was a bit poor given the way it was delivered. In the author’s defence I guess that is a fairly major part of the fiction of the contemporary setting for me to miss, but also BL puts out A LOT these days, and who keeps up with everything?

 

The characters and their backstory need more introduction. Yes it’s a follow on to other work, but it’s also their first mention in a ‘new series’. Part of the point of that series (I thought?) was to entice in new readers who didn’t want to go all the way through the HH. For my part, like many I’ve been reading the Horus Heresy for fourteen years now as the books have been released. Most of these characters and their stories just aren’t memorable enough (for me) to pop them back on stage and generate the level of interest and excitement they should have.

 

I think the SoT would have been better off without side stories or treating it as a setting for other stories. A focused drive to the end game would be better IMO. Having said that, this book does very well at being a side story fitting into the overall events.

 

I feel a happy customer with the LE of Solar War. I do not feel a happy customer with the LE of Sons of the Selenar, though I am glad to have read the story.

 

In sum... despite its flaws I think this works as part of the Siege, but I don’t have a warm feeling having more side stories will work again and I’m wishing Fury of Magnus wasn’t coming out, though maybe it will redeem the Crimson King.

[DukeLeto69]

Weird question from me - Could this (and Fury of Magnus) only really have been written by McNeil?

 

It seems as though he got these novellas as a way of keeping one of the original architects if HH series in the SoT game when his day job must mean he couldn’t commit to a novel or the schedule for SoT.

 

Are these novellas necessary? Will they close down loose threads that cannot be covered in the novels?

[JH79]

Weird question from me - Could this (and Fury of Magnus) only really have been written by McNeil?

 

It seems as though he got these novellas as a way of keeping one of the original architects if HH series in the SoT game when his day job must mean he couldn’t commit to a novel or the schedule for SoT.

 

Are these novellas necessary? Will they close down loose threads that cannot be covered in the novels?

If memory serves, when McNeil first announced he was leaving Scotland to work in America, he confirmed he would be writing for BL on a Part Time basis but that there was no question that he'd be back in some capacity for the Siege. I'm guessing the Novellas are a way more viable option for his inclusion than writing a full blown novel which would be far too time consuming.

 

Re writing the these Novellas, i don't know why it wouldn't be possible for someone else to cover the events. McNeil will have had a rough plot / character treatment for each already drafted so with just a bit of background research / reading the previous story related elements a decent author worth his or her salt could have written these... with varying rates of success of course 

 

Also, given how much of a cluster   some of the main Siege novels have been so far, I'm thankful these plot-threads have been left for McNeil to put to bed himself as Novellas.

 

It's difficult to describe McNeil's Heresy style as a writer, at times it's almost akin to a Michael Bay movie... everything is massivly OTT and bombastic, but I rather quite enjoyed that approach at times, it makes for a different reading experience and can bring a tiny bit of levity to all that Darker than Dark Grim Darkness. While i do feel like Chris or John may have handled Magnus better than McNeil post A Thousand Sons, I'm pretty happy with how he's covered the crew of the Sisypheum. From their almost slapstick moments in Angel Exterminatus, to the crazy Alpha Legion double dealings of The Seventh Serpent, i can't complain too much.

 

I've not read Sons of Selenar yet, going through a bit of a post Saturnine slump, but I'm pretty excited for it when I'm back on track.

[Angel_of_Blood]

I... still don't see the issue of a Mor Deythan doing Mor Deythan things and the narrative positioning him as the outsider who doesn't get super excited over somebody he doesn't know or feel attached to. Or about him "killing" Lucius because he - once again - got cocky and underestimated his opponent. And having an Astartes heavily trained in stealth and handling a sniper rifle actually take the shot... That kind of thing is hardly confined to the Assassinorum.

 

He honestly doesn't do anything that I wouldn't expect from an elite Raven Guard character - and it's not like we got many of those as PoV characters, since Deliverance Lost and Corax both focused more on Corax himself and his closest captains.

 

The meme is quite frankly overplayed, and often reinforced by folks who haven't read the Sysypheum arc beyond Angel Exterminatus. The only thing that actually bothers me is that McNeill set him up for something big in The Seventh Serpent, then forgot that he still had to address that in Sons of the Selenar. Not the first time this kind of thing happens with McNeill, though.

 

Regarding the arc as a whole, there's really just Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, AE, The Seventh Serpent and Sons of the Selenar. Kryptos is negligible, so there's simply one novella to read between AE and Selenar, and that's printed in Shattered Legions.

 

Fully with you on this. Never had an issue with him as a character or his abilities. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I... still don't see the issue of a Mor Deythan doing Mor Deythan things and the narrative positioning him as the outsider who doesn't get super excited over somebody he doesn't know or feel attached to. Or about him "killing" Lucius because he - once again - got cocky and underestimated his opponent. And having an Astartes heavily trained in stealth and handling a sniper rifle actually take the shot... That kind of thing is hardly confined to the Assassinorum.

 

He honestly doesn't do anything that I wouldn't expect from an elite Raven Guard character - and it's not like we got many of those as PoV characters, since Deliverance Lost and Corax both focused more on Corax himself and his closest captains.

 

The meme is quite frankly overplayed, and often reinforced by folks who haven't read the Sysypheum arc beyond Angel Exterminatus. The only thing that actually bothers me is that McNeill set him up for something big in The Seventh Serpent, then forgot that he still had to address that in Sons of the Selenar. Not the first time this kind of thing happens with McNeill, though.

 

Regarding the arc as a whole, there's really just Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, AE, The Seventh Serpent and Sons of the Selenar. Kryptos is negligible, so there's simply one novella to read between AE and Selenar, and that's printed in Shattered Legions.

 

In regards to Lucius, it's more just that it's part of the ongoing Worf Effect that he's being subjected to. For a character that's meant to be one of the best swordsmen in the Legions, so far he's been punked by every character he's come up against, only able to beat nameless mooks. 

 

As for Sharrowkyn, it's not that he's just an expert sniper, etc, it's that he has no flaws at all. What is he bad at? Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also stated that his super-quiet power armour is of his own invention, making him a super-assassin-duellist-inventor.

[mc warhammer]

sharrowkyn doesn't bother me

 

 

but there's zero about him that interests me either

[Jareddm]

 

I... still don't see the issue of a Mor Deythan doing Mor Deythan things and the narrative positioning him as the outsider who doesn't get super excited over somebody he doesn't know or feel attached to. Or about him "killing" Lucius because he - once again - got cocky and underestimated his opponent. And having an Astartes heavily trained in stealth and handling a sniper rifle actually take the shot... That kind of thing is hardly confined to the Assassinorum.

 

He honestly doesn't do anything that I wouldn't expect from an elite Raven Guard character - and it's not like we got many of those as PoV characters, since Deliverance Lost and Corax both focused more on Corax himself and his closest captains.

 

The meme is quite frankly overplayed, and often reinforced by folks who haven't read the Sysypheum arc beyond Angel Exterminatus. The only thing that actually bothers me is that McNeill set him up for something big in The Seventh Serpent, then forgot that he still had to address that in Sons of the Selenar. Not the first time this kind of thing happens with McNeill, though.

 

Regarding the arc as a whole, there's really just Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, AE, The Seventh Serpent and Sons of the Selenar. Kryptos is negligible, so there's simply one novella to read between AE and Selenar, and that's printed in Shattered Legions.

 

In regards to Lucius, it's more just that it's part of the ongoing Worf Effect that he's being subjected to. For a character that's meant to be one of the best swordsmen in the Legions, so far he's been punked by every character he's come up against, only able to beat nameless mooks. 

 

As for Sharrowkyn, it's not that he's just an expert sniper, etc, it's that he has no flaws at all. What is he bad at? Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also stated that his super-quiet power armour is of his own invention, making him a super-assassin-duellist-inventor.

 

That's actually one of the reasons Sons of the Selenar is my favorite of the Sisypheum arc.  The group is forced to man the bridge of their vessel directly and Sharrowkyn is tasked with operating the ship auspex, which he fails at spectacularly.  It was nice to see him frustrated and floundering, with the Iron Hands having to walk him through it.  Personally, my Sharrowkyn hate has cooled a since the formal development of the Mor Deythan, but that wasn't a thing in Angel Exterminatus.  He was portrayed as Raven Guard with some special wraithslip ability that came out of nowhere, which is what made all of his initial actions so frustrating.  There was a single paragraph that mentions his training by stealth masters, but that's not enough for me.  That could describe the training of every Raven Guard.

[Scribe]

 

Personally, my Sharrowkyn hate has cooled a since the formal development of the Mor Deythan, but that wasn't a thing in Angel Exterminatus.  He was portrayed as Raven Guard with some special wraithslip ability that came out of nowhere, which is what made all of his initial actions so frustrating.  There was a single paragraph that mentions his training by stealth masters, but that's not enough for me.  That could describe the training of every Raven Guard.

 

Exactly this. I wouldnt say its hate that I have for the character, but the concept is idiotic and I simply wont be convinced otherwise. :p

 

Go find a dude that is 6'5" and 250+ lbs, and then imagine someone bigger. Then take a small car, break down its panels and wrap that giant of a man in that car.

 

Then tell me this guy is going to be 'stealthy'.

 

lol

 

It just doesnt fly for me, never will.

[Fedor]

McNeill has a thing for portraying Raven Guard as being very cliche "ninja" that goes back to his Ultramarines series if i recall correctly. Haley and Thorpe took a more realistic route by attributing the stealth far more to technology.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fedor

[Scribe]

McNeill has a thing for portraying Raven Guard as being very cliche "ninja" that goes back to his Ultramarines series if i recall correctly. Haley and Thorpe took a more realistic route by attributing the stealth far more to technology.

 

Yeah, I think he even put that in the afterword, I bought that book in hardback based on A Thousand Sons...oh well.

[MarineRaider]

 

 

Personally, my Sharrowkyn hate has cooled a since the formal development of the Mor Deythan, but that wasn't a thing in Angel Exterminatus.  He was portrayed as Raven Guard with some special wraithslip ability that came out of nowhere, which is what made all of his initial actions so frustrating.  There was a single paragraph that mentions his training by stealth masters, but that's not enough for me.  That could describe the training of every Raven Guard.

 

Exactly this. I wouldnt say its hate that I have for the character, but the concept is idiotic and I simply wont be convinced otherwise.

 

Go find a dude that is 6'5" and 250+ lbs, and then imagine someone bigger. Then take a small car, break down its panels and wrap that giant of a man in that car.

 

Then tell me this guy is going to be 'stealthy'.

 

lol

 

It just doesnt fly for me, never will.

 

 

I see and train with that type every single day. Except for wrapping oneself in a car of course. Training, more training and experience can make exceptionally large humans as stealthy as a smaller person. 

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Personally, my Sharrowkyn hate has cooled a since the formal development of the Mor Deythan, but that wasn't a thing in Angel Exterminatus.  He was portrayed as Raven Guard with some special wraithslip ability that came out of nowhere, which is what made all of his initial actions so frustrating.  There was a single paragraph that mentions his training by stealth masters, but that's not enough for me.  That could describe the training of every Raven Guard.

 

Exactly this. I wouldnt say its hate that I have for the character, but the concept is idiotic and I simply wont be convinced otherwise.

 

Go find a dude that is 6'5" and 250+ lbs, and then imagine someone bigger. Then take a small car, break down its panels and wrap that giant of a man in that car.

 

Then tell me this guy is going to be 'stealthy'.

 

lol

 

It just doesnt fly for me, never will.

 

 

I see and train with that type every single day. Except for wrapping oneself in a car of course. Training, more training and experience can make exceptionally large humans as stealthy as a smaller person. 

 

 

Put those dudes inside a mini or a beetle, and tell me in a fight, your going to lose track of them. Like, in melee range. I certainly wouldnt. :p

[mc warhammer]

what if the car has a wraith slip usb dongle tho

[Scribe]

Yes, but that came after. If you want to say 'a psyker did it' I can accept that.

[mc warhammer]

i'm glad they made the effort to patch it up

[b1soul]

This is more like 7 to 7'6 guys weighing north of 500lbs...plus 8 plus feet of power armour which thrums so hard it hurts the gums of people nearby

 

I think the Raven Guard get around this through a combination of "stealth" power armour, nighttime operations, and wraith-slipping. Would also make sense if their stealth suits incorporate some for of anti-grav tech, as that is a lot of weight to carrying as you climb and leap around

[Indefragable]

It’s like @MarineRaider said. You’d be surprised what large creatures are able to pull off <looks warily into tall grass for 700lb tiger>.

 

Google “spot the  sniper.”

[Scribe]

Go back and read the section in question guys. He crawls around in the roof/pipes, in gear, and then has the fight scene, not ambush, not infiltration, not rogue like, but a fight where Lucius loses track of his opponent in melee.

 

The author justified this in the afterword with essentially 'Marines are great, Ninjas are great, Ninja Marines!'

 

I'll go with a psyker did it, for 200 Alex.

[b1soul]

@ MarineRaider is talking about a six foot plus, 200lb plus human wearing cloth and army boots

 

We're taking about a 2-ton power armoured sedan on legs

[rookie40K]

McNeill has a thing for portraying Raven Guard as being very cliche "ninja" that goes back to his Ultramarines series if i recall correctly. Haley and Thorpe took a more realistic route by attributing the stealth far more to technology.

I loved McNeill’s version of Raven Guard. Especially his description in the Ultramarine series. He described their armor as so dark it almost looked liked it sucked in the light (sounds like a black hole). Maybe the description hints at a little of their inheritance of their Primarchs psychic ability to assist in stealth ability? Both training and psychic. I thought was awesome.

Edited September 6, 2020 by rookie40K