Using stratagems

[mughi3]

So an interesting thought occurred to me recently

 

after the play testing I did with 8th and nobody using CP or strats and then looking at the games where we did. I notice I have never really used stratagems with my command points preferring instead to save the few CP (usually 4 or 5 in my normal army) I have for critical re-rolls like charge distances.

 

In fact it has only been in the past few months or so I even started using both my salamanders chapter trait unit re-rolls and AP-1 negation because we have another regular salamander player who told me about them as I don't buy any of the new books ( I only use the strength boost on my warlord trait).

 

when I play my necrons the only thing I really ever use is the dynastic trait for relentless advance for my stalkers and flyers since all my destroyers already re-roll the 1s and don't suffer movement penalties.

 

one of our other players who plays DKOK plays basically the same way, while others use their CP/strats as much as possible.

 

So far I have done pretty well playing this way winning most of the games I have played recently.

 

so the question is-how do you use CP and stratagems? do you horde them? have army specific strats you always use them on? do you have a hard time keeping track of them(since there are so many to choose from now)? do you rely on only using them when the situation arises?

[Chaplain Elijah]

I mostly do not use them, Dark Angels doesn't have good ones.

[Panzer]

Entirely depends on the army. Some factions have tons of Stratagems they want to use, others barely have any. Some already get enough special rules to make crucial charges more likely (Blood Angels get +1 to charge rolls and get charge re-rolls via Lemartes for DC or Angels Wing relic for their Captain or Wings psychic power for their Mephiston/Librarian Dread), others don't so they are more likely to use the CP re-roll for it.

 

Personally for my Blood Angels I use 3CP before the game even begins (2 relics, 1 additional Warlord trait, 1 unit of 5 Veteran Intercessors) and then pretty much always use my remaining 6CP (1 Battalion + 1 Vanguard detachment) on:

• my Redemptor Dreadnought (Duty Eternal + Big Guns Never Tire)
• Transhuman Physiology
• Unbridled Ardour
• Red Rampage

So turn 1 or 2 I'm usually out of CP. Blood Angels are VERY CP hungry, especially now with BoB, and without spamming Scouts don't really get a lot of CP without cutting back a lot on their toys. I try to counter that a little bit by taking a Phobos Librarian with Mind Raid so I usually get one or two more CP for re-rolls or more use of the above listed Stratagems.

[Lord Blackwood]

As an Imperial Knights Player  i make extensive use of stratagems 

Rotate Ion Shields for the +1 to Ion Shield Saves 
Full Tilt for A Charge after Advancing to secure first turn charges. 
Thunderstomp for some extra mortal wounds after fighting. 
Death Grip for pure unadulterated memes 

I  could go on.  I  use  every single command point that I  have when I play Knights , and a great deal of them when I  play Guard as well. 

I think one thing that helps is having the cards , and having the ones you  anticipate using on hand. 

Stratagems add a lot of tactical flexibility to an army in my opinion. 

[Overwhelming Odds]

I find it very hard to believe that a re-roll has anywhere near the battlefield effect that a single stratagem can have.  You have to make sure you know how to leverage them to the fullest.  A re-roll is often "immediate gratification" and if looked back upon after a battle, you will almost always see that there was a better use of those command points.  Try it sometime.  Take notes and/or photos of when you use your command points and why.  Then take notes and/or photos of every time you WANTED to use command points and didn't have them or chose not to.  You will be shocked, I guarantee it.

 

Additionally, there a quite a few stratagems that do not provide the value you should expect from a command point.  So be wary of that as well.

 

V/r,

 

Dan

Edited January 13, 2020 by Overwhelming Odds

[Dark Legionnare]

I play Custodes, Death Guard, and coincidentally for your exact examples, DKoK and Space Marines too. I always at least bring a battlation. That 8CP mark is a big deal compared to 5 or 6.  Allows use of the "boosting" strats like extra relics, WL traits, etc...

 

• Custodes (You cannot win, hell, even tie, without them.)
  • ​Hoard them like they're gold bars. 
  • They're absolutely essential for the four big ones: "Teleport Homer", "Stooping Dive", "Open the vaults" for your 2 HQ's to have 3++, and "Tanglefoot Grenade"
    • You hoard for "Stooping Dive" and "Tanglefoot Grenade" especially. Those two strats are usually "win or lose" fulcrum points in a game.
  • Usually 1CP for a "From Golden Light" for a Galatus.  The galatus threat, especially with a "teleport homer" in an absolute pinch, is a big deal.
  • Sometimes a "Piercing strike" for necessary cleaning up against tougher stuff
  • Sometimes "Victor of the Blood games", but only ever on a bike captain because he'll often be left targetable being the "go where he needs to ABSOLUTELY BE" scalpel unit he is.
• Death Guard (They're fun, but not necessarily essential; all but "Cloud of Flies" & "Blasphemous Machines" are more for fun than any real use, I find.)
  • Usually bring two battalions, so 13 CP.
  • Relic strat is sometimes worth even going for the 3CP hit for staves on two plaguecasters. Suppurating plate is a must have on Demon princes
  • Putrid Detonation is always a fun "Screw you" by using a Rhino as a mortal wound suicide bomb.
  • Nurgle nuke strat "Nurgles Rot" is good on a well positioned demon prince swooping in to an enemy formation.
  • "Cloud of flies" is essential for keeping important, slow infantry alive.
  • Blashemous Machines is what allows PBC's to stay aggressive and relevant. Keeps the mortar hitting while getting in range with all those T8 wounds to use the pukey flamethrowers.
• DKoK (Much like your friend, I barely use them most of the time except for rerolls. The specialist detachments, Relics, and a few tank ones are usually the extent.)
  • Usually bring two battalions or a brigade  + a supreme command so 14/16 CP respectively.
  • We house rule allowing the basilisk strats to be allowed to apply to earthshaker platforms, it's stupid that they don't.
  • If I'm running combat engies and people ignore them, they can be ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL with a round of "Grenadiers" throwing their acid grenades.
  • "Chrush Them!" is a good oh-crap button for my baneblade.
  • "Preliminary bombardment" is always a "fun to use" strat, not really ever tactically worth it, but fun and fluffy.
  • 'Defensive Gunners", "Inspired Tactics" (for a tank commander to also babysit the baneblade) and "Jury Rigging" are my most used strats other than rerolls.
    • For 1CP each, jumping up a DMG bracket or overwatching on 5's is worth that cost, and a good tactical decision.
    • If the baneblade is on the table, "Inspired Tactics" is getting used every damn turn from its babysitting tank commander.
• Space Marines (Much like custodes, I find them essential for space marines. In particular, the standouts for me are "Transhuman Physiology" and "Duty Eternal")
  • Always at least a battalion + a vanguard, + a spearhead sometimes. So 9/10 CP respectively.
  • The double warlord trait strat is usually very powerful
  • SM relics are almost always going to have at least 2 taken, so that strat gets lots of use.
  • "Duty eternal" is a must. Especially for redemptors.
  • "Transhuman Physiology" is quite possibly the most powerful strat in the entire game.  Being able to make marines on a point, staring down flamestorm landraiders, battle cannons, etc... only get wounded on 4's instead of 2's is HUGE. Obviously, plenty of other examples, and hell, even going from a 3+ wound to 4+ can be a huge deal (like against a riptide or such). Can not state this enough.
  • The other one you'll probably see used almost every game, is "Chapter Master" for 2CP.  Babysitting hellblasters, dreads, etc... with full rerolls is a big, big deal.
  • Lots of the Iron hands ones are good, better now they're not 1CP overpowered. (1CP was ridiculous for things like the "DTW 4+" and overwatch bonus one)
  • I haven't gotten to use any of the "Chapter command" upgrades, but a lot of them look really good. Especially the Chaplain and Apothecary ones.
  • There's so many I can't really go into them, but a good number of them are good tactical decisions when the opportunity presents itself.  Don't ever turn your nose down at something like "masterful markmanship" or "Rapid fire"; they can be great ways to leverage pressure or turn a flank in your favor with one unit.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Dark Legionnare

[Noserenda]

I usually filter down to 3-5 stratagems that might actually see use and forget the rest, some rerolls can definitely change the course of games too but its choosing the right moment to use em :) 

[Dark Shepherd]

Playing to your strategems is maybe the best bit of advice Ive hearf

 

I play Wolves so half the cp to get into cc/half once there. Roughly speaking

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A critical reroll can be a game winner. I don’t think there is any army that can outperform not using CPs. Edited January 14, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[mughi3]

Dark Legionnare I think you and I approach the game from quite different positions.

 

from your example lists- bringing battalions, brigades etc.. and having 10+ CP in a 2k game for every list you appear to be farming CP as much as you can where I prefer to build lists to use the models I like to play with not ones I have to take.

 

my preferred list is a double vanguard split into one ranged fire support and one for medium/close combat support.

 

I don't see it as such a big deal to only have 5 CP since I only use them as I do. I also only play casual, no ITC and no tournaments.

so perhaps that frames my judgement

 

Custodes (You cannot win, hell, even tie, without them.)

 

I have a fellow gamer and friend I have been playing 40K and other TT games with for nearly 20 years. we both started 40K in 3rd edition me with my dark angels and him with guard, he later build a crimson fist force in 5th when I switched to salamanders. from time to time he play tests list ideas from other factions.

 

As it so happens he did an all bike custodies list that kicked me and some other players all up and down the table without using stratagems and only the occasional CP IIRC for an extra relic and the strategic dice re-rolls. so I know from being on the receiving end that you can very well win with them without relying on stratagems.

Edited January 14, 2020 by mughi3

[Lord Blackwood]

Dark Legionnare I think you and I approach the game from quite different positions.

 

from your example lists- bringing battalions, brigades etc.. and having 10+ CP in a 2k game for every list you appear to be farming CP as much as you can where I prefer to build lists to use the models I like to play with not ones I have to take.

 

 

Having 10+ Command Points in a 2000 point game allows you to actually use your stratagems and still make use of rerolls , for a list that intends to have some teeth you want to hit that 9-14 command point range. 

 

 

I don't see it as such a big deal to only have 5 CP since I only use them as I do. I also only play casual, no ITC and no tournaments.

so perhaps that frames my judgement

 

Because you  dont actually use your stratagems now you  dont see a value in having the command points.  Plenty of people I play are casual and run in the 8-10 CP range because using stratagems not only adds tactical options to your force but also flavor.  Running a list with adequate command resources is not indicative of ITC or tournament level play. Your judgement is being framed by the lists you currently run / what you see in your local meta. 

 

 

8th Edition 40k  codexes are largely built around Stratagems being a Feature of the Armies , a ton of power is in the stratagems for some armies with examples being given by myself and others int his thread , shirking them or not building an army to make use of them is  like building melee imperial guard is it doable ? Sure .. is it wise ?  I suppose ill leave that determination  up to you. 

 

 

I am getting a feeling that this thread is more " I  dont like to do X , tell me about X  so I can tell you why I  dont want to do X"  if that is not your intention please forgive my reading it as so.  

[Captain Idaho]

The first thing I noticed in 8th edition is the more competitive armies were taking advantage of as many Strategums as possible, or focussing on some particularly powerful ones.

 

Force multipliers work very well in the game and Strategums are generally the best place for that.

 

However, try to always keep a CP spare to resurrect Guilliman... ;)

[Panzer]

Dark Legionnare I think you and I approach the game from quite different positions.

 

from your example lists- bringing battalions, brigades etc.. and having 10+ CP in a 2k game for every list you appear to be farming CP as much as you can where I prefer to build lists to use the models I like to play with not ones I have to take.

 

my preferred list is a double vanguard split into one ranged fire support and one for medium/close combat support.

 

I don't see it as such a big deal to only have 5 CP since I only use them as I do. I also only play casual, no ITC and no tournaments.

so perhaps that frames my judgement

 

 

No offense but you are playing a different 40k than most other people here from what I've gathered from your posts on this forum. I play casual as well but I do care about CP and Stratagems. I won't take units I don't want to take for sake of CP but I also always try to take at least one Battalion. And why not? Having Battleline units in an army makes sense even without considering crunch.

You aren't just playing casual, you play 40k light. Completely fine if it works for you but not the same game the rest of us plays.

 

 

 

I have a fellow gamer and friend I have been playing 40K and other TT games with for nearly 20 years. we both started 40K in 3rd edition me with my dark angels and him with guard, he later build a crimson fist force in 5th when I switched to salamanders. from time to time he play tests list ideas from other factions.

 

As it so happens he did an all bike custodies list that kicked me and some other players all up and down the table without using stratagems and only the occasional CP IIRC for an extra relic and the strategic dice re-rolls. so I know from being on the receiving end that you can very well win with them without relying on stratagems.

 

 

Well yeah because as you must have realised yourself by now, you aren't exactly playing lists that are considered strong (and I'm not talking about tournament lists here).

[mughi3]

Lord Blackwood

 

That was not my intention. I know guard can get large numbers of command points extremely cheaply (which is why the WAAC players bring them along with their real army). as I mentioned above my friend plays guard and when we do the epic scale version of 8th edition he has something in the range of 20+ CP in the 7k+ point range.

 

the idea of having 10+ CP in a pure marine list at 2K I find odd. it seems to me that you are being forced to take units you may not want to use. it reminds me of another topic in another forum about how GW tells you to play/build a force based on model aesthetics or lore. effectively penalizing players for building an army the way GW tells you to because of the way they designed 8th to function. that was what I was trying to get across when I replied to Dark Legionnare

 

As I said in the OP the subject came up when I was discussing it with the DKOK player and how it compared to others in the group who use lots of stratagems. he is a fluff player so he brings some units that are not generally as effective but they fit the lore of the army from the books- like his mortar teams. however because he is playing it via fluff he actually has a lot of CP given how many troops and such he takes to make his force. I am not exactly sure what detachment(s) he brought but this was his force last time we played (some infantry not pictured behind the barn)

 

 

that 9-14 command point range you mention I never knew was a "thing" to strive for. but I can see how it would make CP more appealing since many of them cost more than 1.

the only other CP system I am used to is the one used in infinity so that may guide my view since there both players get exactly the same number per game (4) never any more and they never come back. they are also very limited in use-re-roll heal/repair checks, make a coordinated order, reform a link team, re-roll a hacking attempt, recover control of a TAG, deny your opponent 2 actions in their first turn.

 

 

 

I also always try to take at least one Battalion. And why not? Having Battleline units in an army makes sense even without considering crunch.

because I have always been a tredhead, more specifically dreadnoughts(my favorite GW models), if I can take 6 or 7 of them in a legal list I will as I have since the badab war book came out with dreadnought talons.

 

the most "infantry" i ever fielded in a single list was 3rd ed death wing with 31 terminators and 2 venerable dreads.

even my 30K list only has 26 (counting bikes and jumpers) and 6 vehicles.

 

 

You aren't just playing casual, you play 40k light. Completely fine if it works for you but not the same game the rest of us plays.

I think my heart is still in 5th edition, although my tau preferred 4th

Edited January 14, 2020 by mughi3

[Dark Legionnare]

Lord Blackwood

 

That was not my intention. I know guard can get large numbers of command points extremely cheaply (which is why the WAAC players bring them along with their real army). as I mentioned above my friend plays guard and when we do the epic scale version of 8th edition he has something in the range of 20+ CP in the 7k+ point range.

 

the idea of having 10+ CP in a pure marine list at 2K I find odd. it seems to me that you are being forced to take units you may not want to use. it reminds me of another topic in another forum about how GW tells you to play/build a force based on model aesthetics or lore. effectively penalizing players for building an army the way GW tells you to because of the way they designed 8th to function. that was what I was trying to get across when I replied to Dark Legionnare

 

As I said in the OP the subject came up when I was discussing it with the DKOK player and how it compared to others in the group who use lots of stratagems. he is a fluff player so he brings some units that are not generally as effective but they fit the lore of the army from the books- like his mortar teams. however because he is playing it via fluff he actually has a lot of CP given how many troops and such he takes to make his force. I am not exactly sure what detachment(s) he brought but this was his force last time we played (some infantry not pictured behind the barn)

 

 

that 9-14 command point range you mention I never knew was a "thing" to strive for. but I can see how it would make CP more appealing since many of them cost more than 1.

the only other CP system I am used to is the one used in infinity so that may guide my view since there both players get exactly the same number per game (4) never any more and they never come back. they are also very limited in use-re-roll heal/repair checks, make a coordinated order, reform a link team, re-roll a hacking attempt, recover control of a TAG, deny your opponent 2 actions in their first turn.

 

 

 

I also always try to take at least one Battalion. And why not? Having Battleline units in an army makes sense even without considering crunch.

because I have always been a tredhead, more specifically dreadnoughts(my favorite GW models), if I can take 6 or 7 of them in a legal list I will as I have since the badab war book came out with dreadnought talons.

 

the most "infantry" i ever fielded in a single list was 3rd ed death wing with 31 terminators and 2 venerable dreads.

even my 30K list only has 26 (counting bikes and jumpers) and 6 vehicles.

 

 

You aren't just playing casual, you play 40k light. Completely fine if it works for you but not the same game the rest of us plays.

I think my heart is still in 5th edition, although my tau preferred 4th

 

Hey man, no offense taken at all!  But I'll be the first to say that I'm not purposefully going for any sort of CP farming.  I love having armies with many bodies, and only 2-3 vehicles. I've always found it very fluffy/cool looking, and that's how I end up with a battalion always. You'll never find me bringing "cheap min-on-purpose just to fill out detachments" stuff in any list.

 

• Marines
  • Their HQ's are SO good I always have at least 3, even in 1500pt games.  Libby, captain, LT are the eternal trifecta.
  • I always bring 4 units of 5 intercessors.  They're point effective, durable, and fun.  I might drop down to 3 in 1500-1750 games as I finish up and start bringing in eliminators, an executioner instead of repulsor, 3 aggressors, a chaplain or apoth, etc..
  • I'm not bringing scouts, ever. Never liked them, even since I was a kid in 3rd Ed when I started.
• Custodes
  • Our shop isn't really "competitive", nobody is rocking any cheese. But people play to win, play to outsmart, and play to have fun all at the same time. Without strategems, I'd just straight up get outmaneuvered because you HAVE to play objectives as Custodes.  The grenade and stooping strats, as mentioned, are essential to not drowning in a sea of nids, orks, wyches/wracks, etc...
• Death guard
  • I love plague marines. They're my favorite chaos unit of all time.
    • I LOVE plague marines. I bring 4 squads of 7 to be fluffy, and to play to the warband's name of "The Inexorable Demise". Waddle up the field, shoot, shoot, shoot!
    • Might as well get the CP if I'm also bring two 10 man units of cultists and some poxwalkers to hold backfield objectives and deny deepstrike.
  • HQ's are pretty solid in the form of a DP/wings, Plaguecaster, and your basic lord for rerools. Pretty much always have at least 4 in every game, minimum.
  • Rhinos. Seriously, I'm the ONLY guy in shop who still runs rhinos.  Gotta get my eternal combo of 7 plague marines, with two of the 7 being double plasma plagues, + plaguecaster in a rhino, a pair of said combo, rolling up the field.
• Krieg
  • You're the opposite of me. never been a treadhead (though I do love tanks) in 40k.  I loved the lore aspect of guard, especially krieg, just dying in absolute droves to make the enemy run out of ammo and succumb under pure attrition.
  • Every list has at least 6 infantry squads, two marshals, and two field offiers. That's a given, and I love nothing more than winning a game, with at least 60+ guys dead.
  • Usually bring grenadiers in storm chimeras now too. Fun, and fluffy.
  • I use tons of static arty. Earthshaker, mortars, the colossus bombard, etc...
  • Bring leman russes at my "answer" to enemy armor.
  • Fluff, fluff, fluffy lists.

 

Strategems are VERY powerful, especially in space marines.They are easily the most affected by them in terms of key placement of them being absolutely game changing almost every turn.

 

 

I respect your decision to play armies how you do, we all do it how we see fit.  I happen to like being an infantry commander first and foremost~ Have since 3rd edition.  My old blood angels only ever had a land raider crusader, and baal predator, because they were "cool."

 

 

Try to refrain from accusing folks too much in posts, text is emotionless, ergo, commonly misconstrued!

 

I understand what you meant, but a couple other folks think you were being a bit more "biting" than I think you actually intended.  But so you know, I don't built lists around maximizing CP, or even armies. I just field what I love, and arrange them how they can get me a decent chunk.  It just so happens, that the detachments of 8th are the most efficient with troops and commanders.

 

You can check my signature for a gallery of all my armies and what's "finished" in them so far to reference. Those are the forces I work with, and I field almost the entirety of each force in each game! (Except krieg)

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dark Legionnare

[Rik Lightstar]

The core of my marine army is just under 800 points and means I start with a minimum of 13 command points.

 

2 Battalions

1 Primaris Captain

1 Primaris Chaplain

2 Primaris Lieutenants

4x 5 Intercessors

2x 5 Scouts

 

That leaves 700-1200 points for the fun stuff and gives me some ObSec units.

 

Rik

[Closet Skeleton]

from your example lists- bringing battalions, brigades etc.. and having 10+ CP in a 2k game for every list you appear to be farming CP as much as you can where I prefer to build lists to use the models I like to play with not ones I have to take.

Having 10+ cp in 2k game isn't farming CP at all.

 

CP farming originally referred to combining cheap battalions with warlord traits and relics that allowed you to gain CP mid game.

 

Its not hard to have 18 CP at 2k even with space marines. Triple battalions is only 420 points on hqs and then the nine units of 5 scouts would be 495, so half of a 2k list.

 

Bringing a basic battalion just means taking 3 units of troops, that's basically normal for most 40k armies. 2 battalions is pretty easy to fit in most armies and is pretty much the minimum for most tournament lists. An army without basic troops isn't a real army.

 

I've found that often you're better off with only 2 battalions over 3 because big units can benefit more from stratagems but I don't like MSU anyway.

[MegaVolt87]

The battalion seems like the cornerstone of an 8th ed list IMO. 8th by design seems to want you to have at least one for 8 CP minimum at 2k. Some factions battleline units are great, so double bat SM for instance with intercessors and scouts isn't really much of a burden as you will need some kind of scoring units anyway due to the missions themselves. CP batteries also make certain builds more viable because they need the CP to buff lower model count. eg chaos knights with red corsairs CP battery. Aura's on HQ's definitely make up for the more stock builds over the artisan custom HQ builds of prior editions (or 30k). So people saying "HQ tax" like its a negative, seems a bit disingenuous as they still have utility and not just pure melee blenders. Stratagems are just a special rules cap otherwise. Its a way to add some OP rules. Imagine no cap on things like Transhuman Physiology pretty OP. Other strats could easily just be a special rule for a sub faction like the IF strat that is good against IW's. Not using strats, especially if you have good ones available to your force seems like a self imposed handicap or just out of stubbornness IMO. 

[Dark Shepherd]

They messed up when they upped it to 5 from 3 for a battallion. Their stated thinking was small armies like Knights and Custodes arent getting enough cp to play with so lets make it fairer. Then they created a monster

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They did indeed. The whole CP generation aspect of the game including what you start off with is not balanced well.

[mughi3]

4x 5 Intercessors

2x 5 Scouts

 

That leaves 700-1200 points for the fun stuff and gives me some ObSec units.

This actually reminds me of what people did with the old FOC

 

1 HQ and X2 tactical squads of 5 with a heavy and a special weapon usually las/plas.

 

By filling the required slots through "minmaxing" they could then take the better stuff for the larger part of their force.

 

the difference with 8th is you get both that and more CP because of the battalion detachment.

 

I think that became a thing since most troop options for most armies in earlier editions were kinda "meh"

 

I was very happy to see the cult mechanicus get cataphrons in 7th as troops. they didn't feel so average to me like a tac squad or a scout squad.

 

When I got into 30K I really liked the fact that the troop options were really good and interesting.

 

 

that's a bit off topic though......

 

so out of curiosity for those of you taking full advantage of the stratagems, how long have you been playing 40K? through how many editions?

I know 8th has brought in a lot of new players, maybe it's the time involved between editions but I am finding most that didn't start with 8th came in at the tail end of 7th.

[Panzer]

Well most Blood Angels lists are featuring a double or even a tripple Battalion these days. Primaris Troops are definitely something that can pull its own weight and not just a means to get more CP.

 

I play since Warhammer Fantasy, so quite a while by now. ;) 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know... an army of just Troops for Marines is fairly easy to beat.

 

But the Double Battalion is a staple.

 

Personally I go with a Brigade for the lovely 15 CPs. Less compulsory choices.

[Panzer]

Well nobody was talking about an army of just Troops. 

[Rik Lightstar]

 

4x 5 Intercessors

2x 5 Scouts

 

That leaves 700-1200 points for the fun stuff and gives me some ObSec units.

This actually reminds me of what people did with the old FOC

 

1 HQ and X2 tactical squads of 5 with a heavy and a special weapon usually las/plas.

 

By filling the required slots through "minmaxing" they could then take the better stuff for the larger part of their force.

 

the difference with 8th is you get both that and more CP because of the battalion detachment.

 

I think that became a thing since most troop options for most armies in earlier editions were kinda "meh"

 

I was very happy to see the cult mechanicus get cataphrons in 7th as troops. they didn't feel so average to me like a tac squad or a scout squad.

 

When I got into 30K I really liked the fact that the troop options were really good and interesting.

 

 

that's a bit off topic though......

 

so out of curiosity for those of you taking full advantage of the stratagems, how long have you been playing 40K? through how many editions?

I know 8th has brought in a lot of new players, maybe it's the time involved between editions but I am finding most that didn't start with 8th came in at the tail end of 7th.

 

 

ObSec is REALLY useful, small units are more versatile than larger ones and can better use cover. My scout squads run Power Fist Sergeants and Heavy Bolters giving me access to the "Hellfire Shells" Stratagem and some combat damage that can't be ignored especially when they're set up in useful positions. Intercessors do a LOT of the heavy lifting again through a stratagem, this one lets them use their bolt rifles as Rapid Fire 2 and in the Tactical Doctrine they're AP-2 as well.

 

They're very much the "spine" of my force, allowing other elements to be flexible. 

 

I'm not sure I understand the position that making the most of the army building structure is somehow distasteful.

 

To answer the other question I've been playing 40k since Second Edition, I played Epic prior to that when it was "Space Marine", but couldn't make any real sense of the Rogue Trader rules at the time.

 

Rik