Help versus Thousand Sons

[Pyronick]

Edit: I just realized this maybe should be in Tactica rather than directly in BA's. If so please remove this post for me Mods!

 

Hello fellow Baalites.  I'm looking for some help against my brother (only opponent as we are both very casual). He plays Thousand Sons and I play a now all primaris blood angels army. I'm a 3rd edition player of BA's and when primaris came along i saw the writing on the wall and sold all the old casts and started fresh as a way to get an updated and more experience painted army. 

 

I struggle against his army for a few reasons. One it seems like his rubric marines are so hard to take down to them shrugging of single dmg wounds often, having strong guns, and strong saves. 

 

Secondly, he runs this giant beast that i think is a mutilex? Either way it runs up the field with this giant mortal wound causing aura, has a billion wounds it feels like and regenerates them. I realize this is more than likely just a distraction carnifex but the wound aura has hard to ignore it feels like. 

 

Thirdly, his Tzaangors seem cheap as heck, and have a ton of killing power to them. The trend here is that im confused on what to prioritize. 

 

Lastly, he always brings Demon princes or Magnus and a bunch of sorcerers (At least one a squad) and im just left confused on what to target in which order, it all seems so deadly.

 

As we're both casual players we're more about rule of cool than soup meta lists. So my restrictions are that i usually buy one of each model type so i can paint them up and have some variation.  Here is what i have access to.

 

 

Mephiston

Smash Captain (Its primaris but we dont mind me playing him as counts as normal smash)

2 Primaris Lt's one in CC build the other in shooty.

Primaris Chaplain

Primaris Ancient

2 5 man squads of Intessors with normal bolt rifles and a grenade launcher each (Sgt's with Pswords)

2 5 man squads of hellblasters with normal plasma version\

3 Aggressors in bolter config

3 Intercessors with Plasma 

Drop pod (From before i realise it cant be used with primaris)

Land Raider (Same as Drop pod)

Storm Raven fully magnetised for all weapon options (Yet another one that can't take primaris but i didnt wanna sell cause its sweet)

Redemptor Dreadnaught mag'd for all options

Death Company Dread

Librarian Dread

Contemptor Dread from FW (Can run as relic, in fact i think i have to because its double melee weapon version like a furioso)

Repulsor mag'd for options

Repulsor Executioner also mag'd for options

Astareus battle tank (Looked sweet and wanted the model, not put together yet but soon?)

 

I realize my biggest glaring mistake is not having powerful units like death company and sang guard. I had them and will again when primaris versions come around, for now i dont mind using what I have.  I also realize its a big issue not having a 3rd troop unit to get the batallion CP. I desperately need to grab some incursors I think to fill the gap. 

 

So, its a puzzle. With these limited options, what general guidelines and advice can you give me for taking on a very Mech style of Thousand Sons. What pitfalls should I avoid and what tactics can you recommend?

As always I appreciate all and any help!

 

Also quick edit: Points wise we often use Power Level as its simply faster and less stress. Assume a 75 PL or 1500 points game roughly. Possibly 100 / 2000 if we're feeling sporty. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Pyronick

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Being a thousand Sons player I would say if you want to beat him, stock up on D2+ weapons. And focus the squads down.

[MegaVolt87]

Build around your repulsor + executioner, intercessors + agressors. You should be dominating the TS, looks like you already have most of what you need, just some more intercessors and agressors required, maybe another repulsor/ executioner. HQ's to taste. You will be cleaning their clock in no time. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Lynnean]

I don't really see a reason besides the smash/libby dread to run your list as blood angels. Run it as red marines and you'll be more succesful i think, as much as it pains me to say it. Edited January 16, 2020 by Lynnean

[Pyronick]

I don't really see a reason besides the smash/libby dread to run your list as blood angels. Run it as red marines and you'll be more succesful i think, as much as it pains me to say it.

I can appreciate that. However just keep in mind that i've been jamming my Blood Angels since I was 12 years old. They are too important to me.  We are the farthest thing away from Tournament players and winning isnt all that important. I just want to understand better some tactics so im giving a sporting game. We're very casual often spending more time relooking up rules because 7th edition is still welded into our brains and 8th simplified so much of that.

 

 

Build around your repulsor + executioner, intercessors + agressors. You should be dominating the TS, looks like you already have most of what you need, just some more intercessors and agressors required, maybe another repulsor/ executioner. HQ's to taste. You will be cleaning their clock in no time. 

I'm curious why aggressors? I love the models and think they'd be fun to run but its one of the first things i cut versus him usually because they are just a swarm of 1 damage weapons for a high points cost. Am i wrong in thinking i need to jam as much plasma as i can to get past those rubric saves / buff?  Also you're not the first to mention the repulsors. I assume this is because TSons are a heavy smite army and the vehicles can soak a bunch of that dmg without worry? 

[Majkhel]

 

I don't really see a reason besides the smash/libby dread to run your list as blood angels. Run it as red marines and you'll be more succesful i think, as much as it pains me to say it.

I can appreciate that. However just keep in mind that i've been jamming my Blood Angels since I was 12 years old. They are too important to me.  We are the farthest thing away from Tournament players and winning isnt all that important. I just want to understand better some tactics so im giving a sporting game. We're very casual often spending more time relooking up rules because 7th edition is still welded into our brains and 8th simplified so much of that.

 

 

Build around your repulsor + executioner, intercessors + agressors. You should be dominating the TS, looks like you already have most of what you need, just some more intercessors and agressors required, maybe another repulsor/ executioner. HQ's to taste. You will be cleaning their clock in no time. 

I'm curious why aggressors? I love the models and think they'd be fun to run but its one of the first things i cut versus him usually because they are just a swarm of 1 damage weapons for a high points cost. Am i wrong in thinking i need to jam as much plasma as i can to get past those rubric saves / buff?  Also you're not the first to mention the repulsors. I assume this is because TSons are a heavy smite army and the vehicles can soak a bunch of that dmg without worry? 

 

Generally it is good to have as many shots as possible against good saves. Also if the enemy relies on Smites, they will come to you to get in range and this means they will be in range of all your close-range assault-type guns, like Aggressors.

 

Speaking of which, Aggressors are not that pricey considering the amount of dakka they produce. In Tactical doctrine they would be getting -1AP as well on all of their weapons, negating Rubric Marines +1 to save. They just need numbers and re-rolls. I'd take a unit of 6 or maybe even two. Keep the captain and lieutenant nearby. Also if the enemy wants to come to you to be within smite range, prepare for that and wait for him, which will net you more shots from them for standing still. Also keeping the Company Ancient with Standard of sacrifice nearby will give you some much needed 5+++ (working for MW as well) and a possibility to shoot upon death. 

 

Bolter Inceptors will also be nice in the Tactical doctrine - less shots than Aggressors, but wounding easier and with higher AP. Same goes for Redemptor Dreadnought with the gatlings.

 

Save the plasma and Captain Smash for his bigger units with T7/8, preferably Magnus or the Deamon Prince.

[The Unseen]

Well, for overall tactics

 

Get 3 troops for a battalion, CPs are vital to play any army, but especially for BA.

 

Ignore the rubrics.

They don't deal a lot of damage compared to their cost and what they take to kill, and they are slow.

Unless they're going to win the game by sitting on the objective they're at, ignore them.

The ap-2 bolters will hurt a little, but everything else in the army is spitting psychic buffs and mortal wounds, which are much worse.

Instead, shoot all your D1 shots at the tzangors, as theyre very squishy but hit hard for their cost. Bolters should have no issue clearing them if you focus them rather than having them plink of Rubrics.

 

Also, see if you can get a cheap vehicle in the front of your army, like a basic dread or even your redemptor, and pop the 1cp strat that gives a vehicle a 5+++ vs mortal wounds.

It'll end up eating a lot of smites for the rest of your army.

 

Definetely run an ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice relic and keep your infantry in the bubble, as that 5+++ works on any wound, including mortal wounds.

Failing that, a chaplain litany can give you a 5+++ vs mortal wounds only, and it might work on vehicles?

I'd have to check.

 

If you go first, use the smash captain to charge magnus turn 1, which should be enough too kill magnus. You might have too fight twice, but it'll work.

If he gets a bunch of buffs off on magnus, don't bother, as if he's -1 to hit and 3++, it's too swingy to rely on, and you should probably see if you can take out ahriman or a prince instead, and try to consolidate out of LOS for next turn, where magnus won't be buffed and you can knee cap him.

Anything magnus, buffed or not, swings at is probably toast.

So try and screen your valuable units and make him waste a turn chewing up troops, though that's easier said then done if he has warp time go off.

 

You could also try using mephiston to deny 2 powers, or use Soulwarden for amother character to try.

Don't try and deny Magnus, as he casts at a +2, try and stop buffs coming from things like princes since they don't have a bonus, and since they have many more casts than you have denies, wait until he just barely passed something, then go for the deny.

So don't waste them when they rolled a 9 or a 10, but save it for when he rolls exact success or 1 higher, so you maximize your chance of stopping it.

[Pyronick]

Thats some great general advice from everybody but i really appreciate the overarching tactic recommendations Unseen. Its little things like this that I think i'm better understanding how is army operates. Before I would just blindly focus the Rubrics cause the -2 and the fact that they each pack a sorcerer it was distracting. Knowing now how limited they are on range I can play around that more. 

 

Magnus also being a huge threat i've often focused all my fire right away on him. I'll pay more attention as to when to do that (Buffs down mode). I assume Buffs or not though Magnus is not one you want to leave around for too long as he just does so much. 

[Panzer]

Just be prepared for things to change in about a week when they get their Psychic Awakening stuff too. 

[MegaVolt87]

Primaris are infantry sweepers. TS aren't that high model count if they are mono TS. Making CSM take as many saves as possible is what we dread and primaris deliver. My original suggestions would let you maximize on that. Plink/ chip dmg is king in 8th ed. 

[Karhedron]

Intercessors with Stalker bolt rifles are a fairly cheap way to deal with Rubricae and even Scarab Occult Terminators. 2D and Ap-2 are exactly what you need to take these guys down. Plus they are fairly cheap and long ranged which allows you to save your plasma for higher value targets.

 

You have 2 squads of Intercessors so you could say their bolt rifles are Stalkers. The difference on the models is minimal and as long as all models with the same weapons are using the same rules, there is no risk of confusion. They also have a stratagem to allow them to Snipe enemy characters. It is a bit expensive but can be handy for cutting down his cowering wizards.

 

Speaking of which, some Eliminators might come in handy in this role too. You mention that you need another Troop unit. Possibly picking up the Start Collecting Vanguard box would be good. That will give you some Infiltrators (which you could count as Incursors instead), a Squad of eliminators to make him a bit more careful with his psykers and some Suppressors. Suppressor Autcannons are good at shooting at units with Invulnerable saves since they rely on high strength and rate of fire to force through their 2D rather than relying on high AP.

[Karhedron]

Another way to deal with psykers hiding behind his lines is to fly the Stormraven behind them so it can target them. Thousand Sons don't tend to have lots of anti-tank weapons to threaten it although DPs with Wings and Magnus can threaten it in melee so use caution if they are around.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

To me it seems like your lists do not have any conformed synergies.

 

Pretty much all of 1k sons squads synergize well together because they are about buffs/debuffs and mortal wound spam.

 

Since you guys counts-as anyway my first suggestion would be to make your drop pod a dreadnought drop pod. And just pay the additional 15 points for it.

 

A third troop choice would really open up some CP for you. So if you have some old scouts/tacticals from when you first started I would slide those in.

 

The only Land Raider I field is the god-pattern. Because it's 4 lascannon shots, and its in my death guard army. And this is because of rule of cool and because DG have little ranged anti-tank.

 

They just aren't good choices unfortunately. The same thing goes for Storm Ravens. I haven't fielded one in ages. Because they just die too easily for their costs.

 

Not having any BA specific units or speed is another common theme I'm seeing from what you posted. Not having any melee focused units or ways to get what you want into combat really harks on that synergy thing I was talking about.

 

The Astreus would be a huge boon albeit extremely expensive, but should easily kill 2 big units a turn. But I still think a Castallan is better point for point. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Biggest suggestion for you is get a third troop option as that's least expensive and work on the synergy of your army.

[brother_b]

I think to get the most out of BA after our newest Baal book you must have some BA elite squads; DC or SG. You’re only using 3 uniquely BA units and two are characters. I echo the sentiment that you have lack of synergy. The troops will help out so get more to boost your cp with the addition of that troop slot.

 

shooty armies are done better with the newer marine codex. We are in a strange place, the future is clear, primaris Marines. Yet most of our power is derived from old Marines, it’s a very strange place. I also think you are lacking one of the most important aspects of the blood angels, the ability to move quickly, redeploy, etc. You lack jump pack units.

 

You’re in a tough situation with your collection, but make the first step of trying to get your extra troop choice to set up that full force org battalion. Good luck.

[Pyronick]

I appreciate all the replies guys. I'll mention again that i used to have all the Sanguinary Guard and Death Company. I'm all for BA specific units. However when I decided to do a refresh of my army with Primaris i sold off all the legacy units for the new wave. I'm patiently waiting for them to release more DC primaris and eventually our primaris Dante / Sanguinary guard. I'm confidant its coming and im willing to wait for it.  

I realize this makes fielding a true army with any cohesion a nightmare, thats why i'm here. Wondering with this very tricky limited pool (for now) what you could muster up with it.  I think i received a lot of good suggestions for that and i'll be trying out much of the above comments. 

 

For this first game being played today im relying heavily on the two repulsors to see how they perform (just painted so excited to use). Likewise im jamming my contemptor dreadnought as a relic. I have the librarian dread slotted in over Mephiston at the moment and im beginning to wonder what the odds of ever getting a spell cast off on him when he has so much potential to deny everything. We'll see. Would you recommend putting my intercessor squads into the repulsors to bring them forward? Or is it better to hide my 3 aggressors in there for when something gets close?

 

For now im proxing in 5 tau pathfinders (RIP) as an incursor squad so i can see if i want to pick some up. That gives me my Battalion for some CP. If this was a competitive setting id of course be using the more stream lined lists. Its good to be a causal sometimes in that you get to bring these "Kitchen Table" lists and just have a good thematic time!

 

Final thought - that contempt or with double fists seems like he's going to feel very BA to me. Im sure he'll get gunned down on the foot slog in, i'll have to find a way to keep him hidden. Although the idea of using a drop pod is good to sneak him in that backline and start ripping and tearing. 

 

EDIT: I'm a dummy and should have just lead with a quick roster i put together for today. The focus isn't on crushing my enemy but remembering all my new rules (Why i kept the chaplain out this time because litanies are just one more new thing for me to remember!). Let me know if i made any glaring mistakes. I do struggle a bit with CP usage. It feels weird dumping them all into my Smash Captain just to delete something. Theres also the new Dread ones and the hero of the chapter lots of people recommend to get another warlord trait. 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [80 PL, 1,498pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

 

Librarian Dreadnought [9 PL, 142pts]: 1. Quickening, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Storm bolter

 

+ Troops +

 

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]: 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]

. 2x Aggressor

. . 2x Auto boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm grenade launcher: 2x Auto boltstorm gauntlets, 2x Fragstorm grenade launcher . Aggressor Sergeant . . Auto boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm grenade launcher: Auto boltstorm gauntlets, Fragstorm grenade launcher

 

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [13 PL, 180pts] . Dreadnought melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Graviton blaster . Dreadnought melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Graviton blaster

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Repulsor Executioner [15 PL, 335pts]: 2x Fragstorm grenade launcher, Heavy Laser Destroyer, Heavy onslaught gatling cannon, Icarus rocket pod, Ironhail heavy stubber, 2x Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter, Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Repulsor [16 PL, 312pts]: Auto launchers, Icarus rocket pod, Ironhail heavy stubber, 2x Krakstorm grenade launcher, Las-talon, Onslaught gatling cannon, Twin heavy bolter . Two storm bolters: 2x Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [80 PL, 1,498pts] ++

Edited January 17, 2020 by Pyronick

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Pitty you sold your old school marines as a devastator squad with a heavy bolter, missile launcher, and either two plasma cannons orlascannons can deal out some serious damage to big things, especially with hellfire and flank missile stratagems, the latter work well against units with fly, so DP with wings, Magnus and anything on a disc. I think running pure primaris, you're playing with a handy cap as so much of our rules benefit old school marines. It's actually quite surprising that when GW wrote the rules for certain marine armies they made the old units so appealing, admittedly intercessors are better point for point than tactical, although I still prefer tacticals as I like heavy/special weapons, but a lot of the chapter specific stuff like death company, sanguinary guard and ravenwing and now DWK are just so damn good. Especially with a the cool stratagems and relics.

[Karhedron]

Maybe invest in a couple of squads of Eliminators with Sniper rifles. They aren't very expensive but can help whittle down sorcerers or even chip the odd wound off a Daemon Prince if they are lucky.

 

Even if you just use them to shoot Rrubics or Terminators they are decent as they are AP-2 and the D3 damage profile negates "All is Dust".

[Charlo]

Sanguinary Guard will work wonders with their stratagem to get Damage D3+1 (minimum 2) on their weapons. Their 2W means they can afford to soak a could mortal wounds too, or you can give a Sanguinary Ancient the Standard of Sacrifice to give them a 5+++ against the Mortals too!

 

One thing to deffo watch out for is the Cult of Magic from the new Psychic Awakening Book, it has some really nasty Mortal Wound Spells/ combos that punish bunching units up.

[Karhedron]

The important thing to remember is the fine print on "All is Dust". In order to benefit from the boosted save, a weapon must have a damage profile of 1.

 

This means that weapons that for D3 damage will negate "All is Dust", even if they roll a 1 for number of wounds.