Close Combat units and combos post F&F

[Medjugorje]

New question brothers. I have 150 points for a close combat unit to add to my army. What do I take? 

5 Company Veterans. All armed with Storm Shield and 3x Chainsword and 2 with Hammer.

112 points + 37 for a Trike with Heavy Bolter. Exactly 149 points. 

[MegaVolt87]

 

New question brothers. I have 150 points for a close combat unit to add to my army. What do I take? 

5 Company Veterans. All armed with Storm Shield and 3x Chainsword and 2 with Hammer.

112 points + 37 for a Trike with Heavy Bolter. Exactly 149 points. 

 

 

That 5 man unit will drop like flies without storm shields to tank dmg though. 

[Medjugorje]

 

Against t3:

 

Black Templars: 1 Attack without Superdoctrin gives a 0,44 chance to wound and with superdoctrin 0,5.

Blood Angels: 1 Attack without Superdoctrine gives 0,66 just with their Chapter Tactic.

Space Wolves: 1 Attack without any doctrine gives a 0,55 chance just with Chapter Tactic.

 

Against t4:

Black Templars: 1 Attack without Superdoctrine gives a 0,33 amd with Superdoctrine 0,41

Blood Angels: 1 attack without Superdoctrine 0,44 (still better then Templars WITH Doctrine)

Space Wolves: 1 attack without Superdoctrine 0,41667 (stilll better then Templars WITH Doctrine)

 

Against t5 or higher (dont take T8 because there are not enough units without vehicle keyword):

 

Black Templars: 1 Attack (without superdoctrine: 0,22) and with 0,33

Blood Angels: 1 Attack without Super Doctrine: 0,33 as good as Templars

Space Wolves: 1 Attack without Super Doctrine: 0,277 (Templars just a bit better with their special docrine)

 

 

very annoying - I always felt like this but here is the exact calculation. I think we should write GW again.

 

Against t3:

 

Black Templars: 1 Attack without Superdoctrin gives a 0,44 chance to wound and with superdoctrin 0,5.

Blood Angels: 1 Attack without Superdoctrine gives 0,66 just with their Chapter Tactic.

Space Wolves: 1 Attack without any doctrine gives a 0,55 chance just with Chapter Tactic.

 

Against t4:

Black Templars: 1 Attack without Superdoctrine gives a 0,33 amd with Superdoctrine 0,41

Blood Angels: 1 without Superdoctrine 0,44 (still better then Templars WITH Doctrine)

Space Wolves: 1 attack without Superdoctrine 0,41667 (stilll better then Templars WITH Doctrine)

 

Against t5 or higher (dont take T8 because there are not enough units without vehicle keyword):

 

Black Templars: 1 Attack (without superdoctrine: 0,22) and with 0,33

Blood Angels: 1 Attack withoug Super Doctrine: 0,33 as good as Templars

Space Wolves: 1 Attack without Super Doctrine: 0,277 (Templars just a bit better with their special docrine)

 

[Ado]

@medjugorje - when you put it down in writing like that, it really is quite disappointing that we hit less hard than the other CC-oriented space marines. I'm reading the Armageddon omnibus and we're depicted as these bad-ass knights always pushing forward into the fight and kicking ass. Shame the rules don't quite support that! 

Going to a tournament next weekend that will no doubt be dominated by marines and Iron Hands in particular so I'm keen to see how I get on over the weekend. Unfortunately due to my lack of hobby over the Christmas and Summer (I'm in NZ) break, I will have an under-optimised list 

[Marshal Laeroth]

It is important to note that there are different styles for these chapters and close combat. Blood Angel's are more efficient at it and have a slight increase to advance/charge range, helping them get there easier. Their super doctrine is pretty nice though. Space Wolves are less effective in close combat with a +1 to hit rather than the +1 to would like the BA have, but makes their attacks more reliable. However, like most marine armies, they sometimes struggle to get to close combat. The Black Templars have 33% chance to ignore mortal wounds -- which are highly prevalent in competitive play. We are hard counters to some opponents due to this. We also have a 56% chance to make a 9" charge, not counting the +1" advance/charge roll we also have access to...the BA only have a 42% chance WITH their bonus +1" roll. Thus, it behooves us to take lots of MSU or combat squad and clog your opponents line up. Cant shoot you if you're in CC with their units. A couple of strong CC units in Assault Doctrine will take care of problem units.

[Medjugorje]

Blood Angels have a Stratagem to get 3D6 into charge - and still 9" away then. They are THE Close Combat Marine Army.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Blood Angels have a Stratagem to get 3D6 into charge - and still 9" away then. They are THE Close Combat Marine Army.

You are only able to use the Decent of Angels stratagem on one unit per turn and it needs to be a jump pack unit...PLUS costs 2 CP. We do not need any CP to get into combat efficiently. Black Templars are all about reliability and shutting down psykers. I am okay with that.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Marshal Laeroth

[Acebaur]

BA and SW also don't have access to Centurions, which for the points are ludicrously good. BT have plenty of tools to make us good in CC. We've never been toted as "the best" chapter in CC. It's not our thing. 

 

A combo to consider when deepstriking a unit is if you have buffing characters like Helbrecht for example and your units charge out of his aura, you can use devout push to get him in range again. 

[Medjugorje]

BA and SW also don't have access to Centurions, which for the points are ludicrously good. BT have plenty of tools to make us good in CC. We've never been toted as "the best" chapter in CC. It's not our thing. 

 

A combo to consider when deepstriking a unit is if you have buffing characters like Helbrecht for example and your units charge out of his aura, you can use devout push to get him in range again. 

thats simply not true. In 3rd Edition we were the best close combat Marines. And in the end of 5th edition at least equal to Space Wolves.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, but we were a little broken in 3rd edition. We had waaay more attacks, the option to hit on threes in CC regardless (Because why would you take any other vow?) and the option to take massive squads.

[Medjugorje]

Yeah, but we were a little broken in 3rd edition. We had waaay more attacks, the option to hit on threes in CC regardless (Because why would you take any other vow?) and the option to take massive squads.

but now we are just average in melee (because we are in the Codex Space Marines which is a shooty codes -still)

[Acebaur]

 

BA and SW also don't have access to Centurions, which for the points are ludicrously good. BT have plenty of tools to make us good in CC. We've never been toted as "the best" chapter in CC. It's not our thing. 

 

A combo to consider when deepstriking a unit is if you have buffing characters like Helbrecht for example and your units charge out of his aura, you can use devout push to get him in range again. 

thats simply not true. In 3rd Edition we were the best close combat Marines. And in the end of 5th edition at least equal to Space Wolves.

 

 

We were not great at CC in 5th, if anything we were better at shooting because we had things from 4th like TDA with two special weapons.  The last time we were great in CC was 4th. 

 

That is all besides the point though, we are in 8th now and have a lot of great rules. So instead of focusing on what we don't have or how we compare to others, focus on making what we have work. 

[SydonianDragoon404]

On that note, do we have any other suggestions on close combat units at 150 points? Or are Company Veterans it? I find myself spending too many pre game command points as it is to try to and afford the vigilus detachment. Between warlord traits, relics, master of sanctity, etc.

 

I thought about vanguard veterans but they are so expensive for 1 wound imo. Thoughts?

[Acebaur]

On that note, do we have any other suggestions on close combat units at 150 points? Or are Company Veterans it? I find myself spending too many pre game command points as it is to try to and afford the vigilus detachment. Between warlord traits, relics, master of sanctity, etc.

 

I thought about vanguard veterans but they are so expensive for 1 wound imo. Thoughts?

 

A squad of 3 assault centurions with hurricane bolters are only 156 points and they are brutal. Granted, they need a transport, but if you are taking a LRC or flyer anyway they are 100% worth it. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Acebaur

[Marius_Aurilius]

 

On that note, do we have any other suggestions on close combat units at 150 points? Or are Company Veterans it? I find myself spending too many pre game command points as it is to try to and afford the vigilus detachment. Between warlord traits, relics, master of sanctity, etc.

 

I thought about vanguard veterans but they are so expensive for 1 wound imo. Thoughts?

 

A squad of 3 assault centurions with hurricane bolters are only 156 points and they are brutal. Granted, they need a transport, but if you are taking a LRC or flyer anyway they are 100% worth it. 

 

I would agree! Centurions are super OP In the latest Meta. If you do have a LRC then put them in with 5 man crusader squad with someone like Helbrecht to take the 16th spot.

Using him to give them all reroll of all hit rolls, +1S (Which would put the Centurians from 10S to 12S!) Then I believe he gets the warlord trait front-line commander (I could be Oathkeeper too. I don't remember) Which gives them a plus one to advance and charges.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

BA and SW also don't have access to Centurions, which for the points are ludicrously good. BT have plenty of tools to make us good in CC. We've never been toted as "the best" chapter in CC. It's not our thing. 

 

A combo to consider when deepstriking a unit is if you have buffing characters like Helbrecht for example and your units charge out of his aura, you can use devout push to get him in range again. 

thats simply not true. In 3rd Edition we were the best close combat Marines. And in the end of 5th edition at least equal to Space Wolves.

 

 

We were not great at CC in 5th, if anything we were better at shooting because we had things from 4th like TDA with two special weapons.  The last time we were great in CC was 4th. 

 

That is all besides the point though, we are in 8th now and have a lot of great rules. So instead of focusing on what we don't have or how we compare to others, focus on making what we have work. 

 

I´ve had won tournaments with the combination with shooty Land Speeders and Terminators + 7 Assault Terminators with Furious charge and Master of Sanctinity. Tournaments with players form ETC Team Germany (who dominated the ETC in those times).

 

I think I know how strong they used to be (until GK came out and destroyed each other army with the exception from Imperial Guard.) And yes - i talk about the "after FAQ" time.

 

Not matter the less,... one thing i must say about our Close Combat potential is that our Smash Captains are better then the Blood Angels ones (I know they have a lot of good stratagems ). For the next big GT Teamtournament I will play Blood Angels and now i know how different BA are in comparison to our BT ones.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Hymnblade]

On that note, do we have any other suggestions on close combat units at 150 points? Or are Company Veterans it? I find myself spending too many pre game command points as it is to try to and afford the vigilus detachment. Between warlord traits, relics, master of sanctity, etc.

 

I thought about vanguard veterans but they are so expensive for 1 wound imo. Thoughts?

I mean, what exactly do you want this unit to do? It would be kind of vague to ask for a "shooting unit". A deep striking CC unit is great if you've already got a Canticle Chaplain in the list somewhere, but much less so if unsupported.

 

For a completely different tack from infantry squads, how about an Invictor or a CCW Contemptor? They're threatening to many targets, durable enough to soak some shots, and fast enough that the enemy will have to actually shoot them if they want to avoid getting punched. A single unsupported Invictor could easily just die turn 1, but that's not a terrible outcome if it draws fire away from an LRC or something.

[Acebaur]

Another combo I just thought of. 

 

Unit of Incursors supported by a phobos Captain Castellan with the Shoot and Fade WTL. 

 

Incursors can infiltrate somwhere, move 6", shoot something (hopefully double tapping) then use Shoot and Fade on them, move another 6" and advance D6", then Devout Push into combat. No overwatch and a massive threat range of 16-22" (depending on your advance). 

[Ado]

That sounds like a spicy combo that could catch a lot of folk out!! Now to order me a box of Incursors!!

[Acebaur]

That sounds like a spicy combo that could catch a lot of folk out!! Now to order me a box of Incursors!!

 

Incursors are fantastic. They can infiltrate for first turn charges, their guns ignore cover, they are decent in CC, can get our doctrine bonus on turn one via the crusader helm and they are TROOPS

[Dumah]

Another combo I just thought of. 

 

Unit of Incursors supported by a phobos Captain Castellan with the Shoot and Fade WTL. 

 

Incursors can infiltrate somwhere, move 6", shoot something (hopefully double tapping) then use Shoot and Fade on them, move another 6" and advance D6", then Devout Push into combat. No overwatch and a massive threat range of 16-22" (depending on your advance). 

 

Shoot and Fade prohibits declaring a charge after the bonus move, unfortunately.

 

Edit: nevermind, misread... can Devout push even be used if you haven't charged? The wording seems ambiguous.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Dumah

[Acebaur]

 

Another combo I just thought of. 

 

Unit of Incursors supported by a phobos Captain Castellan with the Shoot and Fade WTL. 

 

Incursors can infiltrate somwhere, move 6", shoot something (hopefully double tapping) then use Shoot and Fade on them, move another 6" and advance D6", then Devout Push into combat. No overwatch and a massive threat range of 16-22" (depending on your advance). 

 

Shoot and Fade prohibits declaring a charge after the bonus move, unfortunately.

 

Edit: nevermind, misread... can Devout push even be used if you haven't charged? The wording seems ambiguous.

 

 

Yes, it's clarified in the FAQ. So you can pull a lot of crazy stuff with it!

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm personally looking forward to slingshotting a squad of intercessors across the board in an impulsor with that trick. 

 

Looking at our current choice in combat units, it seems to be that we have lots of various AP damage 1 weapons. Then straight to the power fist and thunder hammer, and that's really it. Relic blade is a character only choice now. 

 

Getting into off topic territory I know, but I like to dream. What I would love to see in a new primaris melee unit is a unit that has something like a close combat autocannon profile. Strength 6 or 7, AP -1 or -2, Damage 2. 

 

This weekend I'll be taking on the Thousand Sons, where damage counts for a lot. I reasoned out that it really doesn't matter what AP your weapons have, Tsons get a 4+ invuln save if you're damage 1. Rough stuff. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by SydonianDragoon404

[Schlitzaf]

Frankly speaking as a chapter; supplement rules + Vigilus (Crusader Squad issue aside even then), we have very well off. We have alot of ways to get to combat (Advance & Charge, Devout Push (when combined with canticle of hate for 6” pile-in), our reroll charge tactics and frontline commander). Once in combat we have Litany: +1 Attack, Warlord Trait Master Swordsman, and the strategems suffer not and the scout one. Alongside Vicious Riposte, Uphold, the 4+ IV relic and FNP litany. We can take a few hits.

 

Bluntly what we don’t have is a good way for us jn combat outside characters is to do multidamage points efficiently outside Podding Company Veterans (with Suffer) and Packing/Teleportint Vang & Terminators. Or walking Aggressors. In comparison to BA whom have DCompany&Sang Gaurd, DA has Knights (Raven and Death better costed sense approved) and SW have Wulfen.

 

Codex Marine’s just don’t. Its our primary “issue”, and why we are relient on our characters to use punch. /shrug.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Indeed, right now I think aggressors are our premier close combat unit for primaris. Lots of people think they're a shooting unit, but they punch well above their weight and are very tough. Especially with a 4+ invuln on turn 1 and 5+ to ignore damage later on if we don't need it for a different hard target. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by SydonianDragoon404