Close Combat units and combos post F&F

[Acebaur]

Frankly speaking as a chapter; supplement rules + Vigilus (Crusader Squad issue aside even then), we have very well off. We have alot of ways to get to combat (Advance & Charge, Devout Push (when combined with canticle of hate for 6” pile-in), our reroll charge tactics and frontline commander). Once in combat we have Litany: +1 Attack, Warlord Trait Master Swordsman, and the strategems suffer not and the scout one. Alongside Vicious Riposte, Uphold, the 4+ IV relic and FNP litany. We can take a few hits.

 

Bluntly what we don’t have is a good way for us jn combat outside characters is to do multidamage points efficiently outside Podding Company Veterans (with Suffer) and Packing/Teleportint Vang & Terminators. Or walking Aggressors. In comparison to BA whom have DCompany&Sang Gaurd, DA has Knights (Raven and Death better costed sense approved) and SW have Wulfen.

 

Codex Marine’s just don’t. Its our primary “issue”, and why we are relient on our characters to use punch. /shrug.

 

Don't forget Assault Centurions, they hit stupid hard and are extremely cheap for their damage output. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Frankly speaking as a chapter; supplement rules + Vigilus (Crusader Squad issue aside even then), we have very well off. We have alot of ways to get to combat (Advance & Charge, Devout Push (when combined with canticle of hate for 6” pile-in), our reroll charge tactics and frontline commander). Once in combat we have Litany: +1 Attack, Warlord Trait Master Swordsman, and the strategems suffer not and the scout one. Alongside Vicious Riposte, Uphold, the 4+ IV relic and FNP litany. We can take a few hits.

 

Bluntly what we don’t have is a good way for us jn combat outside characters is to do multidamage points efficiently outside Podding Company Veterans (with Suffer) and Packing/Teleportint Vang & Terminators. Or walking Aggressors. In comparison to BA whom have DCompany&Sang Gaurd, DA has Knights (Raven and Death better costed sense approved) and SW have Wulfen.

 

Codex Marine’s just don’t. Its our primary “issue”, and why we are relient on our characters to use punch. /shrug.

Don't forget Assault Centurions, they hit stupid hard and are extremely cheap for their damage output.

Alright! I'll get some! stop twisting my arm!

[thecapn226]

But how do we get assault centurions to the front. My crusader doesnt survive round 1 shooting.

[Marius_Aurilius]

But how do we get assault centurions to the front. My crusader doesnt survive round 1 shooting.

Easy my dude! 

 

You just need the jump pack Chaplin with the 4++ litany, stratagem or relic ( can't remember which, I don't have my book with me)

It's called that Aurilian shroud I believe.

just keep him within 6" of that LRC and that will help a lot! 

 

You could even give the Chaplin the ability to give the LRC a 5+++ against normal wounds too if you are really worried.

 

So turn one you could have a 16w LRC with 2+ 4++ 5+++ and 5+++ against mortal wounds. The only thing I see killing that is a titan line just going crazy on it or the Executioner tanks.

 

Then turn 2 after moving and advance your LRC in turn 1, you dump the Centurions out 3" move 4" advance D6, charge D12 with other bonus from the characters you have with them like the one in the LRC and the Chaplin on the outside.

 

I have done it a few different ways but you could get Centurions to move some where around 20" to 45"!

 

You have to put a lot of points into this combo but damn it could be massively devastating to an enemy turn 2 and we are the only chapters that really get to have this effect with centurions because of our bonuses to charges and advance rolls.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Marius_Aurilius

[Hymnblade]

I've entertained the idea of footslogging them with Devout Push inside a Canticle of Hate, for 6" of bonus movement in every fight phase (including your opponent's). But that costs a lot of CP, still won't get them into the enemy deployment zone before turn 2 at best, and obviously exposes them to shooting the whole time, so I don't know if it would really work.

 

The most viable way may still be an LRC. I think cramming 500 points of death into a 16-wound chassis, if you're trying to be competitive, probably just means the rest of your list needs to become a delivery vehicle: giving it the 4++ relic and 5+++ litany are the obvious things, making it about as hard to kill as a Knight. Then you need to screen a bit so it can't get wrapped, and give your enemy some other targets to worry about so it may not get completely focused (Invictors in their face threatening a turn one charge? An Executioner? A Deredeo with the bubble, which might tempt them to shoot the dreadnought first to remove the bubble? A Chaplain Dreadnought, "accidentally" exposed as the closest target to their big guns, with Duty Eternal?). With cover/Prepared Positions, a 1+ save means you still have a 4+ even against lascannons, and deploying out of LOS may save you if you go second. You could also do tricks like touching a corner to some terrain, then jumping an Impulsor ahead of the LRC to provide 50% obscurement.

 

If you get to go first, you can advance the tank and pop smoke, and then it's probably far forward enough that it's done its job even if it dies. Also, if it dies in the shooting phase, you can Devout Push the Cents that turn. Together with the Vengeance of the Machine Spirit guaranteed explosion, you may be able to make your opponent not want to kill it. There's an opportunity for psychological warfare here, if you remind him of both these things halfway through his shooting phase...

 

This is all pure theory; I don't even own any Centurions yet.

[Marius_Aurilius]

I've entertained the idea of footslogging them with Devout Push inside a Canticle of Hate, for 6" of bonus movement in every fight phase (including your opponent's). But that costs a lot of CP, still won't get them into the enemy deployment zone before turn 2 at best, and obviously exposes them to shooting the whole time, so I don't know if it would really work.

 

The most viable way may still be an LRC. I think cramming 500 points of death into a 16-wound chassis, if you're trying to be competitive, probably just means the rest of your list needs to become a delivery vehicle: giving it the 4++ relic and 5+++ litany are the obvious things, making it about as hard to kill as a Knight. Then you need to screen a bit so it can't get wrapped, and give your enemy some other targets to worry about so it may not get completely focused (Invictors in their face threatening a turn one charge? An Executioner? A Deredeo with the bubble, which might tempt them to shoot the dreadnought first to remove the bubble? A Chaplain Dreadnought, "accidentally" exposed as the closest target to their big guns, with Duty Eternal?). With cover/Prepared Positions, a 1+ save means you still have a 4+ even against lascannons, and deploying out of LOS may save you if you go second. You could also do tricks like touching a corner to some terrain, then jumping an Impulsor ahead of the LRC to provide 50% obscurement.

 

If you get to go first, you can advance the tank and pop smoke, and then it's probably far forward enough that it's done its job even if it dies. Also, if it dies in the shooting phase, you can Devout Push the Cents that turn. Together with the Vengeance of the Machine Spirit guaranteed explosion, you may be able to make your opponent not want to kill it. There's an opportunity for psychological warfare here, if you remind him of both these things halfway through his shooting phase...

 

This is all pure theory; I don't even own any Centurions yet.

I thought the only unit that could deep strike on turn 1 was the drop pod? Everything else has to wait until turn two?

[Hymnblade]

None of those ideas involve deep strike, just regular movement, and forward deployment for the Invictors.

[Marius_Aurilius]

None of those ideas involve deep strike, just regular movement, and forward deployment for the Invictors.

My apologies, I was referring to your comment about the invictors.

"Invictors in their face threatening a turn one charge?" 

I didn't realize you had them already on the board. I thought you were trying to deep strike them turn 1. Hence my confusion.

[Acebaur]

Nah Invictors have Concealed positions same as Incursors. As was said, a LRC with a 4++ and a 5+++ is very hard to shift, especially if you have other dangerous targets like Invictors and heavy tanks.

 

 

I wouldn't Advance the Cents unless you absolutely have to though cause then you lose out on all those bolter shots (60! if you take 5 of them). 

[SydonianDragoon404]

Acebaur I'm actually worried about making the investment into assault cents right now, I think they are probably going to be a big target for the nerf bat soon seeing as how popular they were at LVO. 

[Marshal Laeroth]

I think they will see a little point increase, but more likely will see an update so that Raven Guard redeployment stratagems wont be useable with them.

[Medjugorje]

I think they will see a little point increase, but more likely will see an update so that Raven Guard redeployment stratagems wont be useable with them.

the RavenGuard redeployment is the bigger problem - and I think that GW know it so far.

[SirJyo]

Has anyone here had experience with forgeworld transport options?

Kind of hard to get my firstborn close without sacrificing transport capacity or firepower.

Otherwise land raiders are a bit expensive for what they do on top of the assault centurion cost.

[Medjugorje]

Has anyone here had experience with forgeworld transport options?

Kind of hard to get my firstborn close without sacrificing transport capacity or firepower.

Otherwise land raiders are a bit expensive for what they do on top of the assault centurion cost.

with good screening units a LRC can be really good.  In the facebook group there was a guy who posted a Black Templar list with a LRC which he said perfomed well so far. Funny thing was that in the same time i opened his list i was build a very similar list on Battlescribe in brainstorming for one of my next tournaments in march.

 

B2T - 

 

Frontline Commander + Master of the Vanguard (Phobos Space Marines WL-Trait) gives us a perfect combination for getting Reivers with +2 on charge rolls

 

Then I find the "Shoot and Fade" WL-Trade which could be played with devout push.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Acebaur]

 

Has anyone here had experience with forgeworld transport options?

Kind of hard to get my firstborn close without sacrificing transport capacity or firepower.

Otherwise land raiders are a bit expensive for what they do on top of the assault centurion cost.

with good screening units a LRC can be really good.  In the facebook group there was a guy who posted a Black Templar list with a LRC which he said perfomed well so far. Funny thing was that in the same time i opened his list i was build a very similar list on Battlescribe in brainstorming for one of my next tournaments in march.

 

B2T - 

 

Frontline Commander + Master of the Vanguard (Phobos Space Marines WL-Trait) gives us a perfect combination for getting Reivers with +2 on charge rolls

 

Then I find the "Shoot and Fade" WL-Trade which could be played with devout push.

 

 

I probably wouldn't bother with Reivers tbh. Incursors are just better in a lot of ways. Reivers have only a marginal increase in hitting power which is negated by the fact that Incursors can get into combat on turn 1 with our assault doctrine active. 

[SydonianDragoon404]

Ive now had the opportunity to try out Vanguard Veterans a couple times in games that were not super competitive. I gotta say, if you have turn 1 they can really wreck some face. With shock assault, +1 attack litany, ability to be in assault doctrine turn 1, advance and charge, and on top of all of that ignore overwatch thanks to suppressors. Thats alot of really nice buffs. Theyve been pretty nasty so far. They basically doubled in terms of offensive output. Edited February 13, 2020 by SydonianDragoon404

[Medjugorje]

with the new Stratagems they could be played competitive too. Maybe not top niveau against IH Character-Bot lists but being strong.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Didnt want to open a new thread for this and this one fits kind of.

 

Spotted a pretty interesting templar list going to the fargo gt:

https://www.goonhammer.com/three-interesting-lists-from-the-fargo-two-rivers-open-gt/

 

Scroll down to see it. I hope to hear more about how he piloted it and what the list was able to do.

Any thoughts?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Marshal Vespasian

[Acebaur]

Didnt want to open a new thread for this and this one fits kind of.

 

Spotted a pretty interesting templar list going to the fargo gt:

https://www.goonhammer.com/three-interesting-lists-from-the-fargo-two-rivers-open-gt/

 

Scroll down to see it. I hope to hear more about how he piloted it and what the list was able to do.

Any thoughts?

 

 

There are a lot of huh? choices in that list IMO. He has the Litany of Faith on the JP chaplain, which is completely redundant with our CT. Then he has Helbrecht and Grimaldus, but no way to move them up the field.  I guess Helbrecht is babysitting the Elims, but that seems like a waste of his other abilities. 

The JP chaplain also has the crusader helm which is not usable on really anything but himself in that list. 

 

Just a lot of weird choices that don't make sense to me. 

[Marshal Laeroth]

Didnt want to open a new thread for this and this one fits kind of.

 

Spotted a pretty interesting templar list going to the fargo gt:

https://www.goonhammer.com/three-interesting-lists-from-the-fargo-two-rivers-open-gt/

 

Scroll down to see it. I hope to hear more about how he piloted it and what the list was able to do.

Any thoughts?

I wont be playing in the tournament since I have a funeral to go to tomorrow, but I will be there supporting my gaming club the Warhogs...so I will try to ask Ben why he made some of those more...out of the box...choices.

[Medjugorje]

I decided to take a Black Tempar Army into the battle - the first ITC tournament this year in the very south of germany.

To be honest - it was not possible to test my list and i dont have any clue about ITC rules - but guess what? I expect to perform well

[Acebaur]

I decided to take a Black Tempar Army into the battle - the first ITC tournament this year in the very south of germany.

To be honest - it was not possible to test my list and i dont have any clue about ITC rules - but guess what? I expect to perform well

 

 

At least one ITC rule benefits us. First floors of all ruins block LoS. So anything on the first floor can't be shot at(or shoot you) but can be assaulted, with no overwatch. 

[Crusader7]

I've been playing a similar list, but using a brigade. The Hammernators pack a huge punch and are tough as nails. You can even footslog them to pretty good effect by using devout push in each players combat while within range of Canticle of Hate.

 

5 Inch Move, D6 Advance, 6 Inch Devout Push, 6 Inch Devout Push on Opponents turn. Averages to 21 Inches of movement during the first game turn. That puts you on your Opponents front door for Turn 2 so they can't be ignored and are harder to screen out as you get to do a good chunk of your movement after the shooting phase.

 

It's also good to buff these guys to high heaven so they can take the punishment. A 10 block can get 5+++ from Litany of Divine Protection, 4+++ vs Mortals from Cenobytes and Transhuman Physiology. With everyone firing on all cylinders, they can seriously take a beating. The beauty of Thunderhammers is that only 3-4 need to make it in to do some damage, so you opponent absolutely has to dedicate the firepower to prevent them from crashing in. Thanks to our movement shenanigans, once we are in they aren't getting shot for a good while. This let's your slash/smash captains run around having a field day while the giant blob of unkillable Terminators locks down your Opponents.

[redmapa]

That is an interesting list and while I agree there are some weird choices I do think the core idea of the army is sound, you use the incursors offensively, the intercessors to screen your back line and claim objectives and everything else just goes hard with the assault termies being a huge distracting and destructive unit. I had a similar list but it was 9 tactical terminators and the main flaw it had was that turn 1 enemy shooting crippled my army so when they got to charge I barely had anything and I think the Fargo list will have the same issues.

[Medjugorje]

 

Has anyone here had experience with forgeworld transport options?

Kind of hard to get my firstborn close without sacrificing transport capacity or firepower.

Otherwise land raiders are a bit expensive for what they do on top of the assault centurion cost.

with good screening units a LRC can be really good.  In the facebook group there was a guy who posted a Black Templar list with a LRC which he said perfomed well so far. Funny thing was that in the same time i opened his list i was build a very similar list on Battlescribe in brainstorming for one of my next tournaments in march.

 

B2T - 

 

Frontline Commander + Master of the Vanguard (Phobos Space Marines WL-Trait) gives us a perfect combination for getting Reivers with +2 on charge rolls

 

Then I find the "Shoot and Fade" WL-Trade which could be played with devout push.

 

i forget to say that the guy on facebook performed well in a grand tournament with this list

 

I decided to take a Black Tempar Army into the battle - the first ITC tournament this year in the very south of germany.

To be honest - it was not possible to test my list and i dont have any clue about ITC rules - but guess what? I expect to perform well

 

 

At least one ITC rule benefits us. First floors of all ruins block LoS. So anything on the first floor can't be shot at(or shoot you) but can be assaulted, with no overwatch. 

 

thats normal in our tournament for 2 years now.