Psychic Awakening - Deathwatch Hopes

[Mobius0288]

I WANT to use my chaplains so badly. Up to this point, I've only ever used them when I drop a VV unit out of a blackstar... and sometimes a captain may prove better in that case. Possible problem with your tactic? Don't litanies occur at the beginning of your turn?

They're all good tbh. Like heavy thunder hammers can be be buffed with +1 to wound litany, and combined with exploding 6's if fighting a xenos faction with the stratagem! Or any melee with two sources of exploding 6's with a different litany and the alien strat. Way too fun.... or +1 to shoot for unit of combi-plasma (or hellblasters) for safe® overcharging. The +1's to hit or wound could be great for overwatch as well. AND they could potentially be combined with our Doctrine strats. Storm bolter Vengance rounds wounding a Knight on 4's anyone? I could see the +2 to charge litany being used in place of the smash captain first turn rush with the beacon angelis. Pair a jump pack Chaplain with the beacon and some biker units. Beacon in a shooty unit after the move and charge with the bikers. A bunch of fun combos for sure.

[Jukkiz]

Litanies go in your turn but unit and chaplain must be on the board to use them

[6262]

Preview is up

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/10/psychic-awakening-deathwatchgw-homepage-post-2/

[Spinsanity]

Did I miss something in a FAQ or Errata, or the Codex maybe (which I hadn’t purchased yet, I admit), or are the DeathWatch still not allowed to take any of the new Vanguard units?

[Mobius0288]

The preview has not confirmed whether you can or can't but since they didn't advertise it in the preview, we will likely not get to use them. Nothing in the FAQ, we weren't allowed to use them when initially released.

 

Glad we speculated on the litanies bit because it looks like we are getting the generic litanies from the space marine codex. Not a whole lot of creativity with the rules unfortunately. We did get the intercessor strats which is pretty sweet. Kinda brings the rapid fire guys back into the game as a possible choice, or with the deep strike combo with the hellblasters. A lot of hype around the sniping stalkers, and good combos... balanced out by the price of the strat (3CP). Duty eternal for our anti-tank dreadnaughts. Interesting addition of the termie strat, bringing them back with their melta-fists and CMLs. Could possibly drop libbys with them now for a more defensive move (Psychic fortress) against psycher armies, and not suffer in shooting as much.

[bortbortbort]

This all just feels very... Uninspired

[Doghouse]

I think that is the downside of a WD update, no new models. I'd jump all over DW if they added the other phobos models and officers.

[Spinsanity]

Not fetting access to the Vanguard options really puts a final nail in the coffin of the DW army I’m been considering doing... Anyone feels like taking that copy of the Collector’s 7th ed dex I’ve been hanging onto? :rolleyes:

[Finkmilkana]

Sounds like its literally just getting access to the 'new' codex space marine generic stuff, with zero chapter or PA specific stuff. I guess the rumors that both harlequins and DW as lines are pretty much discontinued were true. I just wish they would just roll DW into the main codex and be done with it.

 

I wonder if they will for the first time ever (or did I miss one?) print errata for a White Dwarf? Seems otherwise DW might soon be the only SM faction with the old version of Duty Eternal for the foreseeable future...

[Inquisitor Trinity]

How useful are doctrines for us really? We have so very few heavy weapons as it is so the only use i can see for devastator doctrine is probably stalker rifles (primaris and otherwise). The tactical doctrine will be useful but assault we won't get much use out of due to how little of it we have. The main draw from the doctrines i can see is meaning we only have to use hellfire ammunition as the ap boost is covered by the doctrines. Unless they reword the special ammo to not be capped at -2 for kraken and -3 for vengeance rounds. Which kinda defeats the point of having special issue ammo in the first place as we should be able to choose which one we want. This will probably mean we only ever end up using hellfire.

 

Litanies though i am really looking forward to! Gonna take 2 chaplains now. Also gonna be some good stratagem use, the auto bolt rifle one especially :D

[NKirkham24]

This preview is immensely lacklustre. Just copied some strats from Codex Soace Marines. So uninspired.

 

I hope there is something else to come but I’m not positive

[Mr4Minutes]

Now that we’ve started getting some reveals, I’m now in the thankful to be in the WD camp. We’re basically getting the big brother hand me downs.

 

But, this is actually more then I thought we were going to get.

 

There’s still the chance GW throws a “not useable with SIA” monkey wrench in there somewhere. But we have some good options.

 

Couple okay uses for the dev doctrine but we won’t tactical anyway. And turn 2 & 3 is usually where we drop in anyway. If doctrines stack with SIA wounding on 2s ap-1 storm bolters are looking sweet, along with intergressor squads and all the ap-1 shooting there.

 

9 stalke bolt rifles and an aggressor may be the best snipers unit. Ap-3 2D and wounding on 2s. Litany of +1 to wound and the +1 to wound strat make it 4+ to do’s MW. Add in the tome on a watch master to make sure you can reroll the 1s to wound. Sounds good on paper to me.

 

For clarification on my chaplain comment. Starting him on the board is not a problem for DW. Need a key unit (hellblaster squad etc.) to get +1 to wound/hit? Start them on the board next to the chappy then use you DS character to beacon that unit where it’s needed. You can also use it on a chaps with the 6” +2 to charge bubble.

 

I also think we can get decent use out of the assault doctrine. With the ability to add fall back and shoot/charge to most of the units we rely on, that extra ap will definitely be a benefit. Yes it’s in t4 or later, so it’s more end game oriented. Still not a bad option.

 

The real negative is it looks like we aren’t getting any new relics or warlord traits. The ones we get are fairly mediocre (especially WTs) so that’s a let down.

 

At least we’ve got stuff to spend cp on other then +1 to wound.

[Qui-Gon]

Sadly I'm in the camp of GW doesn't give a   about Deathwatch.

 

14 Stratagems?

Ok then, let's count them out:

Target Sighted

Rapid Fire

Boltstorm

Duty Eternal 

Fury of the First

Hammer of Wrath

Big Guns

Skilled Riders

Steady Advance

Transhuman Phys

Gene-Wrought Might

Hunter Slayer

Vengeance of the Machine Spirit

(Random unique Stratagem)

 

So 13 common strats that everyone got, and every other chapter got a lot more customized and unique strats beyond 1!

 

Litanies?

Ok, so we get the basic 6. But no mention of a unique one, and all indication we don't get one, because to quote the article "Many of them can be further enhanced by the six new Litanies of Battle that Deathwatch Chaplains will have access to." So everyone else got unique chaplain buffs, but Deathwatch? Nope.

 

Angels of Death/Combat Doctrines/Bolter Discipline?

Ok, so we get Combat Doctrines. But we don't know how it will work with SIA, aside from "flexibility". 99% it won't stack with Kraken/Vengence Rounds.

Ok, so we get Bolter Discipline, again. Does that mean we will be able to use it with SIA at last because it doesn't really matter at this stage with other armies with comparables getting it? 99% that we won't. At which point what was the  point?

 

Every other chapter got a spread of additional relics? Are we getting them? Nope. We have 4 pages of a white dwarf.
2 pages for stratagems

1 page for chaplain litanies

1 page for Angels of Death and Intercessor gear errata.

Where is the room in the book for extra relics?

 

Are we getting a corrected Librarius Discipline to bring us in line with the Space Marine codex? Nope.

 

Sure, we can try to look on the bright side and see what combinations we can make of this, but that isn't the point. We are LITERALLY being treated as the worst marine army, which had a LOT of love and time invested into it. Grey Knights, got amazing. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space wolves, all got excellent comparables. Deathwatch? We are now the red-headed step child of the marine armies.

 

Seriously folks, why should we just let GW continue to treat our faction as poorly as they do?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[Mr4Minutes]

I completely agree with you Qui-Gon. Except one part. No way are we getting a unique strat. You probably just forgot a generic one we’re also getting lol.

 

I am trying to take the bright side approach (after I got my grumbles out) because I do think the rules we are getting do open up some interesting strategies (many of them we’ve all probably thought about since vanilla SM got them, which is when we could have too apparently).

 

We can also see that not only was the WD issue completed and had possibly gone to print in February, but that the WarCom preview was also written before the end of February. The SM FAQ dropped 2/27 and that’s when duty eternal was errata’d to be -1 damage instead of half. And the one in the preview is still half damage. (I may be giving the WarCom editors too much credit here in assuming the article was completed months ago rather then assuming they missed it when the article was submitted last week)

 

What’s the chance that we get a day 1 faq(or 2 or 3) when the WD is released to correct that?

[Banjulhu]

On the positive side the Deathwatch with this lack lustre copy-paste job are probably still in a better place than the Black Templar so they are not quite the red-headed step child just yet.

[Qui-Gon]

On the positive side the Deathwatch with this lack lustre copy-paste job are probably still in a better place than the Black Templar so they are not quite the red-headed step child just yet.

 

They have access to a better variety of units and stratagems, along wtih better characters. I'd put my money on Templars before Deathwatch.

 

 

I completely agree with you Qui-Gon. Except one part. No way are we getting a unique strat. You probably just forgot a generic one we’re also getting lol.

 

I am trying to take the bright side approach (after I got my grumbles out) because I do think the rules we are getting do open up some interesting strategies (many of them we’ve all probably thought about since vanilla SM got them, which is when we could have too apparently).

 

We can also see that not only was the WD issue completed and had possibly gone to print in February, but that the WarCom preview was also written before the end of February. The SM FAQ dropped 2/27 and that’s when duty eternal was errata’d to be -1 damage instead of half. And the one in the preview is still half damage. (I may be giving the WarCom editors too much credit here in assuming the article was completed months ago rather then assuming they missed it when the article was submitted last week)

 

What’s the chance that we get a day 1 faq(or 2 or 3) when the WD is released to correct that?

 

Someone pointed out that since the preview contains pre-nerf rules for Duty Eternal, we can assume that the rules in the white dwarf are going to also be pre-nerf combat doctrines, so you're correct in that the allowance I made for the unique stratagem is most likely going to be Adaptive Strategy, which is going to be removed so in truth we are getting 13 stratagems, not 14. Oh GW...

Edited April 11, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[GrinNfool]

Sadly if all we get is 14 copy paste strategems thats even worse than I had thought it was going to be when they said we would be in WD.  So... on the bright side some of those strategems are REALLY good in DW, on the downside, they are mostly quite pricey and DW are generally CP starved already.  hellfire + ap1 is solid, the combat doctrines alone do improve us, if only for that.  DW already had the best stalker rifles of marines, being able to character target makes that just flat out scary.  Even 5 is potentially 5 shots rerolling hits (WM) wounding on 2s at ap 3 (dev doctrine) rerolling failed wounds due to mission tactics, at 2 damage a piece, ya its 3 cp, but thats pretty scary, even SS captains would need to be wary, gets even more worrying the more marines you add to that.

 

Honestly though even with some positives in this its hard not to feel like its a kick to the nethers.  Even hoping for a relic or warlord trait section, if there are no new strategems, units, or anything else like that its just kind of insulting that they didn't just put out an online addendum when the SM codex came out saying DW also gets these.  If there was nothing unique being added then no play testing needed to be done, nothing new that could severely break things, why the delay?  So it just furthers the question, why did DW go 7+ months for this?  All the others got supplements with new unique strats, super doctrines, etc, this just feels a bit insulting unfortunately.

 

Now we haven't seen it yet so who knows maybe there is a super doctrine, maybe we can use SIA with Bolter discipline, either of those could instantly make this a good update, even if everything else is copy paste, it remains to be seen at the moment.  I don't honestly hold much hope, but until we know what is in it, we don't know what isn't in it.

[Azaiel]

I will wait for the WD before I make my judgement BUT it doesnt look good sofar.

[Mobius0288]

How useful are doctrines for us really? We have so very few heavy weapons as it is so the only use i can see for devastator doctrine is probably stalker rifles (primaris and otherwise). The tactical doctrine will be useful but assault we won't get much use out of due to how little of it we have. The main draw from the doctrines i can see is meaning we only have to use hellfire ammunition as the ap boost is covered by the doctrines. Unless they reword the special ammo to not be capped at -2 for kraken and -3 for vengeance rounds. Which kinda defeats the point of having special issue ammo in the first place as we should be able to choose which one we want. This will probably mean we only ever end up using hellfire.

 

So strictly non-SIA guns: Missile launchers, Lascannons and Storm Cannons for first turn doctrine. Tactical doctrine puts extra AP on plasma/combi-plasma, shotguns, flamers and frag cannons. The infernus HB can fit in both categories. And for assault, now our power mauls and lightning claws get an extra AP. The difference for us is we can spam these weapons a little more then normal space marines. And while that's not necessarily a game changer, it is something we can more actively take advantage of.

[Inquisitor Trinity]

 

How useful are doctrines for us really? We have so very few heavy weapons as it is so the only use i can see for devastator doctrine is probably stalker rifles (primaris and otherwise). The tactical doctrine will be useful but assault we won't get much use out of due to how little of it we have. The main draw from the doctrines i can see is meaning we only have to use hellfire ammunition as the ap boost is covered by the doctrines. Unless they reword the special ammo to not be capped at -2 for kraken and -3 for vengeance rounds. Which kinda defeats the point of having special issue ammo in the first place as we should be able to choose which one we want. This will probably mean we only ever end up using hellfire.

 

So strictly non-SIA guns: Missile launchers, Lascannons and Storm Cannons for first turn doctrine. Tactical doctrine puts extra AP on plasma/combi-plasma, shotguns, flamers and frag cannons. The infernus HB can fit in both categories. And for assault, now our power mauls and lightning claws get an extra AP. The difference for us is we can spam these weapons a little more then normal space marines. And while that's not necessarily a game changer, it is something we can more actively take advantage of.

 

Are you saying we can't combine SIA with doctrines? The AP improving ones might not be viable but hellfire and dragonfire are still viable right?

[Qui-Gon]

Until Games Workshop releases any confirmed rules, it is better to assume the negative interaction of things. We've been kicked in the teeth once already with Bolter Discipline and SIA being divorced, and unless GW's about to reverse course on an already sinking ship, I don't expect things will work together.

[bortbortbort]

Would be great to have 3 mutually exclusive rules with overlapping effects. Go GW

[Mobius0288]

 

 

How useful are doctrines for us really? We have so very few heavy weapons as it is so the only use i can see for devastator doctrine is probably stalker rifles (primaris and otherwise). The tactical doctrine will be useful but assault we won't get much use out of due to how little of it we have. The main draw from the doctrines i can see is meaning we only have to use hellfire ammunition as the ap boost is covered by the doctrines. Unless they reword the special ammo to not be capped at -2 for kraken and -3 for vengeance rounds. Which kinda defeats the point of having special issue ammo in the first place as we should be able to choose which one we want. This will probably mean we only ever end up using hellfire.

 

So strictly non-SIA guns: Missile launchers, Lascannons and Storm Cannons for first turn doctrine. Tactical doctrine puts extra AP on plasma/combi-plasma, shotguns, flamers and frag cannons. The infernus HB can fit in both categories. And for assault, now our power mauls and lightning claws get an extra AP. The difference for us is we can spam these weapons a little more then normal space marines. And while that's not necessarily a game changer, it is something we can more actively take advantage of.

 

Are you saying we can't combine SIA with doctrines? The AP improving ones might not be viable but hellfire and dragonfire are still viable right?

 

 

I mean, I started to say something about it but we just don't know. Like Qui-gon brought up, these rules were published a while ago... before the FAQ that changed combat doctrine and modifier interactions. I want to hope that maybe we'll get to be different and keep it, but have absolutely been burned by that thinking in the past. Enough people complained deathwatch was OP, other factions get adjusted and they don't return back to the ones that were originally nerfed. Look at the history of Grey Knights and some of the other smaller factions.

 

It was probably intended at one point. Also I think people are more focused on seeing SIA interactions with combat doctrines, so they're more apparent. Storm bolters with hell fire rounds in turn 2 and 3? Ya bro, that's delicious. 2-3 Frag Cannons get off their frag rounds? 2D6 @ Ap-2 x # of frag cannons! IMO, some of those things won't make or break my current lists.

 

Just saying to keep an eye on the non-SIA stuff and capitalize. Combi-weapons have been good for us and now their getting a little better on the right turns.

[NKirkham24]

I originally felt very down about the treatment DW are getting, and in a way, I still do. There is so much GW could do with the faction, and very easily too, but seemingly lacks the will to do so. 

 

Reading some of your posts though, you're highlighting some nice combos we can use that may change play styles and give us something else to try, even the very limited access they have given us, which i'm appreciating.