2k Tournament Worthy?

[Dracos]

I need some hardcore advice on the viability of this list for tournament circuit. It is half built painted. Still have the HQs, Centurion, Eliminators and Incursors in the box that need built and painted.

 

I feel I need a Double Battalion because while I haven't assigned any (beside Master of Ambush for the Chaplain) CP for "toys and tricks", I plan on throwing the whole tool box at it.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [52 PL, 928pts] ++

 

**Chapter Selection**: Master Artisans, Raven Guard Successor, Stealthy

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: Jump Pack, Master-Crafted Weapon, Storm shield, The Imperium's Sword, Thunder hammer, Warlord

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]

 

+ Troops +

5 Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]

5 Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle (Sergeant: Chainsword)

5 Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle (Sergeant: Chainsword)

 

+ Fast Attack +

5 Inceptor Squad [14 PL, 205pts]: Assault bolter x2

 

+ Heavy Support +

3 Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]

3 Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]

3 Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [60 PL, 1,071pts] ++

 

**Chapter Selection**: Master Artisans, Raven Guard Successor, Stealthy

 

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: Canticle of Hate, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

+ Troops +

5 Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]:

5 Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle (Sergeant: Chainsword)

5 Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifle (Sergeant: Chainsword)

 

+ Elites +

5 Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 185pts]

5 Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 185pts]

5 Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 260pts]: Hurricane bolter, Flamers x2

 

++ Total: [112 PL, 1,999pts] ++

 

I'm not sure Stealthy best serves this list or another Chapter Tactic?

 

If not for 2 points the 2nd Phobos Captain would be a Phobos Librarian, so there's that.

 

Chaplain is the vehicle used to move the Centurions into position via Master of Ambush, if going first. They'll deploy in the Shadows if going second. Besides my rule of cool Smash Captain, the Cents are my one concession to an all-Primaris army (because GW has yet deemed fit to give the Primaris the dedicated melee unit we long for).

 

That said, are there any obvious weaknesses or mistakes or additions that other eyes can see that I might have missed given I plan of blowing through my CP by Turn 3 probably. 

 

Thanks,

Dracos

Edited January 16, 2020 by Dracos

[superwill]

Looks reasonably solid to me. Is it ITC tournaments you’ll be doing? What will you do in battles where you don’t know who’s going first?

 

Has about 1/2 - 1/3 the amount of centurions I like to take but I haven’t tried aggressors so if you get good results out of them or are just wanting the closest primaris unit then fair enough.

[Dracos]

I suppose venue does make all the difference doesn't it? Good call Will. I'm most interested in an Adepti-Con set up but I assume, yes most tournaments will be using a packet at least based on ITC rules.

 

You can get about get about 5 Bolter Aggressors for every 3 Assault Centurions. Although I really like the Centurion models (converting the siege drills and a nice looking center piece), point for point, the Aggressors give me more model/unit presence across the board. In practice, well, I'll just have to find a way to make it work because buying more Centurions isn't in my budget considering I figure they'll eventually go the way of the rest of the Firstborns ... and I expect a point increase at some point.

 

In battles I don't go first, SftS is my best friend and one of the reasons I feel the need for a Double Battalion. Actually I'm perfectly happy to go second. Its why I created a layered deployment set of units. Stalker rifles designed for the backfield, Bolter rifles to move up to midfield to support the Phobos units that deployed in the midfield, and Eliminators where ever needed. SftS Aggressors and Inceptors apply pressure with Smash Captain T2. I don't expect the Incursors to last moe than 2 turns but thats why the Bolt rifle Intercessors moved up to reinforce the midfield Objectives. They can lend weight to Smash and 3 units of big boys. 

 

I'm not totally sold on my two Phobos Captains but I just really like the conversion I'm making for Smash and the Phobos Captains. Redundancy is obviously a watch word for me also. Chappie is basically just cheap and looks cool as is. Not sure the MoS works in my list but at least it's an option. I started this list with the idea of a Primaris Lieutenant, but after playing with the points over and over it was either upgrade the Lt to Cpt or buy wargear that was situational, meh.

 

I didn't expect to ramble this much but Will's question about going second brought to mind that a list of units without context on their general usage is less than helpful to those your requesting assistance from.

 

Thank You

[superwill]

Awesome. Yeah often assessing “the plan” is at least as meaningful as assessing “the list”.

Okay cool, so in most scenarios you’re planning on going second and if you get first turn it’s just a bonus that you’re ready to take advantage of. That’s my personal preference too.

In that case I think the aggressors work perfectly fine because if everyone’s Plan A is to deepstrike in, then combat ability isn’t that relevant unless you’re packing bonus charge inches.

One possible issue you might face is that 1000 points of your list will start on the board against 2000 points and is mostly short range bolter fire and lacks anything which is going to threaten big targets (common RG problem). Eliminators do okay but won’t be an answer to riptides, knights, flyers, or most vehicles tbh, and that’s even if you deploy them upfield so they’re in range. What that means is that quite often if your opponent gets first turn you will probably cop two turns of fire from a full gunline list without really having much to throw back. That’s probably the reality for most RG lists, though many are opting for TFCs and Mortis dreads to at least bring something to the table in the first round or two. The big question will be whether your drop will be big enough to rescue the men who have dug in for one/two turns. Against certain armies your many bolters in the second wave will do enough, against others they won’t. Have you run the numbers to see how your drop would go against a classic 3 riptide and 40ish drone combo? Or if it’s enough to kill a couple of knights?

The slam captain is a bit of a tricky one. Great unit, but to simply drop him and hope that he makes a 9” charge is risky (even with the +1 from the strat, and the reroll strat/relic it’s still a coin-flip). One thing I’ve found myself using more and more is the infiltrators stratagem. Coming from a BA background, Forlorn Fury was a very popular strat, and this is the same for 1CP less. If there’s enough terrain on the field and depending on what the opponent has, sometimes I’ll just deploy slam as far forward as possible and then infiltrate him 12+d6” into a building/bottom ruins before the game starts. Just something to keep in mind if the situation arises, if you haven’t been doing that already. The centurions are going to be interesting. Without any bonuses, you’ll fail more charges than you’ll make, and your flamers won’t be in range either. I love them but I always give them 11” flamers and +2 to charge (either CT and Lias or a chaplain). If you’re mainly running them for their hurricane bolters they do end up sounding like expensive aggressors.

For your CTs, I would think that pure RG might actually be your best choice with your army. You might not have enough flamers to warrant +3”, and you don’t have enough combat to warrant +1” charge. Master artisans is great on your many units but I think that considering your biggest issue (I think) is going to be getting outranged/outgunned for 1-2 turns, it’s gonna be better to add survivability than lethality. And then when you drop and blow stuff up, you’ll be more difficult to take down on the return fire. That’s my take anyway.

I guess the toss up with Lt v Captain is just that Lt will be a better aura if you’re planning on clumping up (since you’ve already got 1 captain) but a Captain is obviously a better choice if you’re spread out and he’s just doing his own thing. I guess the question might be how often are you gonna clump?

One last thought - it might be over-investment, but I know some have had success with meltas on their cents. You could run it in two waves, aggressors and inceptors peel off the bubble wrap t2 and then the cents arrive on turn three to just hurricane bolt and melt down whatever targets have been exposed. I dunno, just feels a shame to pay that many points for the hurricane bolters and then let the flamers go to waste (and the combat also usually go to waste). Alternatively, I’m a big fan of the grav cents because they’re more useful with regular RG tactics and are much more user-friendly than the assault cents who can get screened out, but again you’d have to find the points.

Honestly though it looks a solid list, just a few minor tweaks to get it all to synergise and it’ll be great. Sorry I haven’t said much of great value but hopefully somewhere in my drivel there’s at least something which sparks a helpful thought.

Edited January 17, 2020 by superwill

[Morticon]

The double phobos Cap is an interesting one since you can, if need be, get both the Korvidari combo and Ex Tenebris. Makes them quite good.  

My biggest concern, as noted, is if you're not playing CA18/19 missions and instead roll off (with +1) for the turn, it changes up the deployment considerations

[MajorNese]

Disclaimer: I have no idea how smash captain/aggressors/centurions fare, I don't have or use them, so no comment on that approach.

 

As I see it, RG might give you a better bang for your buck - your list has zero vehicles, so all the AT will target infantry too. Making overcharging plasma (which is extremely effective against primaris) too risky, and lessening the incoming volume of fire, might help stay on the board or on objectives. Bonus point, it would unlock Shrike (as replacement for a phobos captain), which I am a fan of, and who might catch up with the deep strike guys to give them more punch. And obviously easier access to Ex Tenebris.

 

The intercessors are a thing though - in pretty much every game where I brought bolt rifles, they were annoying to use. When only moving, they're mostly just getting one shot. If advancing on an objective, they can't fire at all. I've had more fun and success with autobolt rifles, which can still fire the full number under those circumstances, and +50% shots easily offsets the lower AP. The only downside is that they cost +1ppm, and few people have them around since they absolutely sucked before the new codex.

 

Stalker boltrifles are a less clear matter - they are superior in dev doctrine, but from turn 2+ they have the exact same profile per shot as bolt rifles - which just split the 2D into two shots of 1D, which is killing twice as much 1W models. Usually I would skip them, but since your anti horde looks well enough, I guess they are just fine as is.

 

Another change might be haywire mines on the Incursors - if they mine the objectives they are designed to hold, it's much more of a deterrent than currently. Since they only deal MW, few people risk running their awesome invul HQ in there, and since it does +1MW against vehicles, it might help against vehicles just rushing the objective and parking it. Since you will be on the defensive until turn 2, I'd guess something will run in there.

 

In recent games, I've found Eliminators only useful to a certain amount - I don't bring more than two squads now, since Ex Tenebris and Shrike tend to kill anything that would otherwise be killed by Elims, and terrain to hide them in tends to get crowded. So, as micromanagement proposal: Scratch one Eliminator squad (72p), upgrade both bolt rifle squads to autobolt (-10p), give haywire mines to both incursor squads (-20), upgrade a phobos captain to Shrike (-31p), and use the remaining 11p for power swords (-8p) and maybe auxilia grenade launchers (-1p) if you have the models. Power swords on midfield units, with 3A+Shock Assault and enough wounds to get stuck in CC, do come handy occasionally. The auxilia grenades are situational (and more worth it on bolt rifles), but there is no other way to use single spare points.

[Dracos]

double post Edited January 17, 2020 by Dracos

[Dracos]

MajorNese @I agree that the Eliminators are the one spot where I could tweak and it not effect the overall set up.

 

Assuming that, then what about dropping both Phobos Captains? ... and adding a Phobos Librarian along with Shrike? Or is having Ex Tenebris and another Captains buffs more important, given the overall strategy of layered deployment and reinforcing with redundant units.

 

The Intercessors are just ObSec for me. Anything else they do is gravy. I definitely see the advantage of the autobolt rifles if I have the points. Half a year ago I wouldn't have even had power swords on my “to do” list but with the newer Marine-meta I can see the utility if they’re the last few points your spending. Thanks.

 

 

Morticon @ I’m very interested in what your deployment concerns are? I like the double Phobos Captains myself but MajorNese has me pretty much convinced to lose at least one and slip in Shrike (sadly at the cost of one of the Eliminator squads). His better buffs, mobility and fighting skills are pretty point efficient. I’m always looking for a reason to add a Librarian. I just haven’t given one an honest thought with this list and the way it works. The trade offs are serious and I need to make sure it is best for the overall army not just because it’s a great weapon or a chance to Deny the Witch

double post

[Dracos]

So .... thanks to MajorNese, I ordered a Shrike from the FLGS this weekend. I don’t know I really want to lose the 3rd Eliminator squad but he certainly adds a value I can’t find anywhere else. I like keeping the Intercessors cheap as possible so I’m going to play around with those left over points. Thx MN