Tactica Theorem: Skipping T1

[Indefragable]

An idea has been lurking under the surface of my cerebral strategium for some time now, but it wasn’t until my most recent ITC game that it crystallized into communicable form:

 

BA should “skip” the Devastator doctrine altogether and spend the entirety of T1 Advancing.

 

A controversial idea, no doubt, and not one I myself am totally sold on, but hear me out.

Most especially when facing other Astartes armies, we lose in a straight up gunfight, especially in Heavy Weapon vs Heavy weapon shootouts. Yes, a good commander can do well, but compared to most other chapters out there we need a trick or a bit of luck to do well in a shootout. Our advantage lies in melee and Advancing. Thus, in essence, we “should” just not even bother with Heavy weapons and spend all of T1 Advancing our units to better set up for T2.

 

I am especially thinking of ITC format or similar where there is a reliable amount of LoS-blocking terrain...but essentially the game plan is to deploy very conservatively, going all in on mitigating damage taken. T1 we springboard out and continue to hug LoS as much as possible, but maneuver to get into ideal range so that T2 we can pounce with Rapid Fire and Assault weapons and charges of opportunity. The idea being that we not only play to survive at all costs T1, but we also seek to draw the enemy out, pulling him out of position a bit to get better angles on our units. This has a twofold effect to our benefit since it either draws him towards us making our charges easier, or he turtles up even harder and allows us to draw even closer making our charges easier. Win-win kind of chess move. I am also thinking of vanguard units that can pop smoke the turn they Advance as well. I M also thinking of Relic Contmeptor Dreads that, when Advancing, are moving a minimum of 11”....basically a Jump Dread.

 

So its a theory, one hat is in stark contrast to the opinion that especially w/ DevDoc we should be building more Dakka into our lists then ever before. And it is certainly not one without its flaws.

 

Counter-points:

-anything that ignores LoS (like the Whirlwind Scorpius that keeps ruining my day)

-similarly blitz-y armies like Genestealers and Orkz

-things that are speed and Fly like Tau battle suits and Dark Eldar/Harlequins

Edited January 21, 2020 by Indefragable

[The Unseen]

I think the idea has merit when combined with bringing some stuff to take advantage of the Dev doctrine.

 

If you can keep your infantry out of los, your heavy hitters in reserve or hidden, and your long range stuff in cover out of LoS from most of his long range stuff by either being mobile or not needing LoS yourself, you can force your opponent to split fire and hopefully not get to make use of most of their short ranged firepower, where most of the anti-infantry is concentrated.

 

I've been doing it with scouts in LoS blocking spots in the midfield flanks while several units of auto intercessors advance to either cover or preferably LoS blocking stuff with the SoS.

Very very difficult for my opponent to deal with, as much of the time the scouts prevent him from spreading out much, and the intercessors are very difficult to remove with usual LoS ignoring weapons.

And land speeder typhoons can easily mitigate the return shots they take with LoS blocking terrain and 48" range, and while we don't get thunderfire cannons, quad mortars are still pretty good.

 

But I think you do need *some* stuff that can reach out and touch the enemy turn 1 that doesn't require CP and screen clearing,

 

Been working on a finalized list to post for critique

Edited January 21, 2020 by The Unseen

[Panzer]

That's a very broad statement which I honestly have to disagree with for the most part. Sure, if you play an all out melee list then just advancing turn 1 is not a bad idea. Daemons do practically the same since they have no shooting anyway. However I question the idea of playing such a list in the first place.

We don't need to win in a 1v1 heavy weapon shoot out, but we do need to soften the targets for our melee units. Clearing screens, popping transports, killing units that would threaten our melee units with retaliation fire etc. It's called synergy.

You want to play completely without heavy weapons? Enjoy anything that has their own melee units in a transport or something. Khorne Berzerkers will laugh their ass off facing such a Blood Angels army.

 

Though honestly I struggle to follow your logic.

A mixed Blood Angels list with some ranged pressure to support the melee units was the way to go before already and Combat Doctrines change NOTHING about it. All it does is to make the shooting with heavy weapons turn 1 and with rapid fire/assault weapons turn 2 a bit stronger. It only supports the kind of playstyle we've figured out to be the best working for us already.

Literally the only thing Combat Doctrines changed for us is the question whether we want to charge turn 2 or turn 3 to which I say charging turn 2 is still the way to go but the Assault Doctrine allows us to follow up with less dedicated melee units afterwards to keep up the melee pressure.

[Indefragable]

@SFPanzer : when I wrote this I knew you'd be coming back with counter-points :) 

 

To be clear, as always, exactly how you play your force depends on your foe and battlefield conditions. My above theorem is mostly geared towards fighting other Space Marine forces since nearly every single one of them, even Space Wolves, has better shooting than we do. And that's where my point is going: yes, our shooting is better now with Doctrines, but so are their's. In the past, I've often felt the Starburst maneuver was our go-to, where we castle up and let our guns talk for a Turn or two before exploding outwards to capture objectives, pounce on the enemy, or otherwise sow confusion. Now, with the advent of both super doctrines and Devastator doctrine which directly negates cover bonuses, I'm not sure we can reliably survive the first turns of enemy salvoes, especially if he is able to comfortably sit back at range (looking at the new Dark Angels). 

 

There are still many armies where we are going to want to soften them up with shooting as much as possible: I happen to not infrequently play against a 3x20 Genestealer 'Tyranid list, a World Eaters Berzerker/Rhino Rush + Daemons list, and an all-buggies-and-bikes Orkz list, and I know better than anyone shooting helps a lot against each of those armies. But my question is do we really need Heavy shooting? Or can we make do with Rapid Fire/Assault weapons for softening things up? In a vacuum I would say no, but if we play hyper-aggressively in a particular manner, I wonder if we will find that scrimping on heavy guns is not as much of a hindrance as it seems.

 

This is a theory, looking to get people's thoughts and practical applications. 

[Hintzy]

I think the concept absolutely has merit and is something I've been theory-crafting myself (see my previous attempt to evaluate relevant options here).  The counterpoints presented by others already are obviously important to consider but I've struggled to commit to a decision about the best answer.  You're probably aware of Thomas Hegstrom Oakey's list and playstyle, and know he basically forgoes shooting all-together and plays in a manner similar to what we're discussing and has been very successful (comparatively speaking).  I've spoken with him since Blood of Baal dropped and he doesn't seem to be interested in changing much, even with Doctrines.  I was excited to see how he does at LVO, but unfortunately he'll be a senior judge instead.

 

The issues I'm trying to find solutions for are getting a kill turn one and preventing my opponent from getting kill more.  Forlorn Fury Captain Smash is obviously capable of securing that kill without a ton of risk, but a good opponent is unlikely to present a target to make an efficient trade.  So now you've gotten your kill, but your Captain will be an easy kill, and your opponent, especially as another Marine player with a few artillery pieces of any variation, is likely to kill at least a unit of Scouts.  So you've gotten one point and given up two.  Even without sacrificing your Captain just one dead unit of Scouts will net your opponent kill and kill more. 

 

Moreover, if you're holding units in deep strike for T2 charges you also need to start clearing screens T1.  The only solution to this is to indeed commit to a bit of shooting.  I think finding an exceptionally durable but deadly form of shooting is the key to this.  The options I've settled on are Aggressors with Transhuman and SoS nearby or a Leviathan with Duty Eternal.  The Aggressors would obviously do a better job of clearing cheap chaff screening while the Leviathan would do better against Primaris screening.  The Aggressors also take 2cp for Transhuman while Duty Eternal is only 1cp.  Considering we need as many CP as possible that might be an issue, the Aggressors also pull the SoS and maybe Sanguinary Priest away from our SG coming in from deep strike, but good planning and positioning could negate this.  It's just an added failure point to consider.  Considering the current prevalence of Marines, most of which use a lot of Primaris infantry) the 2 damage Storm Cannon Leviathan also comes ahead there.  The primary problem I have with the Leviathan is the Relic tax and I can't decide which other Heavy Support would be the best choice.  Eliminators are cheap, but a single unit isn't necessarily going to accomplish a whole lot, especially against Marine characters.

 

Why not use Death Company for screen clearing?  Forlorn Fury on non-character units really relies on getting first turn, unless you're certain there will be enough terrain, which I don't think is something you can bank on.  They also provide another easy target for your opponent after their initial assault, and fall like flies.  Wrapping something would be great, but again your opponent has a say in that and you can't take it to the bank.

 

Another thing I'd like to do is find the points to swap Scouts out with Incursors/Infilitrators to again hinder first turn kills for my opponent, but it's challenging to find that many points while retaining more than one of the classic Blood Angels deep strike melee bomb units w/character support and a bit of shooting.

 

Hopefully some of that was interesting/relevant to the discussion, I lost focus a few times taking care of the kiddo 

[Indefragable]

Honestly, one of my biggest issues is the Counter-Attack universal Strategem. Even when we’re at our best, we need to be prepared to lose a unit to the enemy interrupting one of our units. Even a simple Dreadnought can ruin your Sang Guard or such for just 2CP, even if that is the only CQC ability in the entire person’s army. Capt Smash has had to take a lot on his SS for that reason.

[Wassa]

I kinda agree and I’ve been tinkering with it myself.

 

As BA we have to advance up and shoot what we can with assault weapons on the way, focusing targets and hopefully killing them so they can’t shoot back.

 

But against armies that create their lists to take advantage of their heavy weapon or rapid fire doctrines T1 or T2 we’re in a heap of trouble and have to weather the storm.

 

In some objective missions where they have to spread out it’s not too bad. But with missions that allow them to castle up, shoot, and maximise aura rerolls we’re just a bit screwed.

 

The counter attack stratagem is a thorn in our side. We either just accept it or spread out our charges, which then means they come too soon or too late.

[Remtek]

Check out impulsors with 4++, very defensive and mobile for it's points. Can often advance from one los block to another and can give you an explosive turn 2 with veteran intercessors or dc intercessors.

[Panzer]

Honestly, one of my biggest issues is the Counter-Attack universal Strategem. Even when we’re at our best, we need to be prepared to lose a unit to the enemy interrupting one of our units. Even a simple Dreadnought can ruin your Sang Guard or such for just 2CP, even if that is the only CQC ability in the entire person’s army. Capt Smash has had to take a lot on his SS for that reason.

 

If it's the only melee unit in your opponent's army then you simply activate the one it is in combat with first. Counter-attack is only a problem when you have multiple units in combat and the opponent has more than one melee unit in those combats.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

I recently played a game against Tyranids, 1500 Pts. We played Eternal War instead of ITC, so that could have played into this as well. But I basically used my 15 man DC squad to cause him to play conservatively, deploying so he couldn't get his fast bugs into combat quickly. I then spent all of turns 1 and 2 jumping around to position myself out of charge range from any of his fast bugs and ready to deliver the turn 3 hammer. The first two turns of the game took a combined 30 minutes. In turn three I landed my trio of chaplains and DC into his big bugs, and SG dropped from the sky to eliminate his brain bugs. Craziest game I have ever played, but the theory craft worked. Getting to Assault doctrine as quick as possible, and as intact as possible, is more powerful IMO than trying to squeeze out some Devastator or Tactical Doctrine shooting.

[tychobi]

I would think that a Blood Angel list built to this idea could be quite successful. There is no rules incentive to muck about shooting stuff. Hide, advance, overwhelm. 1st turn charges are easy for us so I would think a scout wave to clear screens and take the mid map followed by waves of deep strikers would really play into our strengths. I think it is sad that we have only minor incentive to do combined arms as a solo codex with the super doctrine. Might as well use tank commanders if we want reliable shooting.

[Wassa]

But I basically used my 15 man DC squad to cause him to play conservatively, deploying so he couldn't get his fast bugs into combat quickly.

How? Did you just stay out of range and threaten him with a counter charge?

[Djangomatic82]

I recently played a game against Tyranids, 1500 Pts. We played Eternal War instead of ITC, so that could have played into this as well. But I basically used my 15 man DC squad to cause him to play conservatively, deploying so he couldn't get his fast bugs into combat quickly. I then spent all of turns 1 and 2 jumping around to position myself out of charge range from any of his fast bugs and ready to deliver the turn 3 hammer. The first two turns of the game took a combined 30 minutes. In turn three I landed my trio of chaplains and DC into his big bugs, and SG dropped from the sky to eliminate his brain bugs. Craziest game I have ever played, but the theory craft worked. Getting to Assault doctrine as quick as possible, and as intact as possible, is more powerful IMO than trying to squeeze out some Devastator or Tactical Doctrine shooting.

What did the points objective tally look like through out the match?

[Majkhel]

I've been toying with this idea myself for a low-point games. A battalion with a mix of scouts for CPs with Captain Smash and Astorath and then Elites DC, SG and Ancient (Warlord, SoS) with probably Sanguinor to increase number of attacks and number of beatsticks inside enemy lines once I get there. DC would preferably tie things T1 along with scouts and then T2 and T3 SG would come along with supporting characters. 
However I'm also thinking of adding an Inquisitor for a potential OW turn-off with Terrify. The down side is that he will probably only be able to help with that T2/T3 cause he needs to get in range, so no support for the DC. And so I'm coming to the idea of suppressors for a potential 3+ units without overwatch. But this breaks the all-assault approach.

[Panzer]

For low point games everthing is different and usually less balanced. Especially elite armies like Primaris simply don't have the option to bring everything they'd need to cover all their bases in low point games. ^^

[Majkhel]

Well in bigger points' games it's harder to hide.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

 

But I basically used my 15 man DC squad to cause him to play conservatively, deploying so he couldn't get his fast bugs into combat quickly.

How? Did you just stay out of range and threaten him with a counter charge?

 

 

I only moved with careful measurements to keep myself out of charge range from genestealers and hormogaunts and the flying Tyrant. I basically had to maintain 25 inches from those three units, which involved a lot of lateral moving along the board instead of flying up the board as fast as I could. His bigger and slower bugs, like 3 carnifexs, kept lumbering up the board until I hit turn three and jumped on them. A 10 man squad of Vanguard Vets dealt with his genestealers, and then my Sanguinary Guard dropped down turn 3 to remove his 6 Zoanthropes and Neurothrope in one round of combat.

 

My first two turns consisted of shooting two heavy bolters (1 from each of my tactical squads) and a little bit of shuffling behind LOS blocking terrain. It was a strange game to be sure.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

 

I recently played a game against Tyranids, 1500 Pts. We played Eternal War instead of ITC, so that could have played into this as well. But I basically used my 15 man DC squad to cause him to play conservatively, deploying so he couldn't get his fast bugs into combat quickly. I then spent all of turns 1 and 2 jumping around to position myself out of charge range from any of his fast bugs and ready to deliver the turn 3 hammer. The first two turns of the game took a combined 30 minutes. In turn three I landed my trio of chaplains and DC into his big bugs, and SG dropped from the sky to eliminate his brain bugs. Craziest game I have ever played, but the theory craft worked. Getting to Assault doctrine as quick as possible, and as intact as possible, is more powerful IMO than trying to squeeze out some Devastator or Tactical Doctrine shooting.

What did the points objective tally look like through out the match?

 

 

1st Turn - 1 to 1 at the end

2nd Turn - 3 to 1 in favor of Tyranids

3rd Turn - 7 to 3 in favor of Blood Angels

 

Called the game after the 3rd turn as he only had a half strength genestealers unit left and a Broodlord. No matter what the cards, I was closing in to table him.

[Indefragable]

Great work, @Matarno. Excellent use of the Movement phase. 

 

It's like boxing: 

 

Good on yer feet? Won't get beat!