Scale models in "counts as" for 40K

[Evil Eye]

One very common practice in 40K is using scale models, usually tanks, with conversions to represent existing units, either because the actual model is out of the player's budget or just because they want to diversify their collection and make something unique. Obviously "counts as" is a somewhat divisive subject anyway, and even 100% GW conversions can provoke arguments, and using IRL vehicle models with modifications even moreso.

Myself, I have nothing against the basic idea- a lot of 40K tanks are heavily influenced by real-world tanks anyway- but in practice, I find a lot of "conversions" are very, very basic, usually consisting of a cheap kit with an Imperial Aquila on the side and a lascannon glued somewhere, with very little to make it look more like an actual part of the 40K universe, or indeed, less like a real tank with a few errant bits glued on here and there. And whilst I would never refuse a game against someone using such a proxy, I might roll my eyes a little at particularly "minimum effort" conversions.

 

However, I hasten to add this is entirely an artistic/aesthetic preference, not a snobbery issue or some kind of purism with using GW models. I've seen some fantastic conversions based on old scale models (Rednekkboss' Nurgle bomber based on a P-47 Thunderbolt springs to mind) and when they have sufficient effort put into them, I have absolutely no problem with them. Indeed, my Death Guard will have two such conversions at minimum; the Blight Talon heavy bomber (a Hell Talon being extensively converted from an outrageously awful Testors 1/48 Phantom) and a Plague Mite tankette (a Blight Hauler based on an ancient Airfix 1/76 Sherman, complete with a kitbashed turret made from Tyranid parts and a LOT of putty).

 

Anyway, what about you guys? Do you like seeing scale models as bases for conversions? Do you have any such projects on your workbenches?

[Panzer]

I'm with you on this one. If the necessary effort is put into the conversion I'm perfectly fine with it but if it's clearly just "I took this cheap model and threw an aquilla on it" then I'll roll my eyes a bit like I roll my eyes when playing against a completely unpainted army etc.

I won't refuse to play against them because it's not really something outrageous but I also won't applaud them for their work or anything.

[Gederas]

I've seen people using scale models to make Imperial Guard vehicles out of tanks (for example, dice4thedicegod made a Valhallan Macharius Vulcan out of a 1:35 scale Elefant Tank Destroyer, and it looks fine.

 

Personally, as long as they manage to get the "feel" of a 40k vehicle, it's good. Which for the Imperium, means Aquilas, skulls, and giant, boxy armour.

 

 

Also just one thing

Myself, I have nothing against the basic idea- a lot of 40K tanks are heavily influenced by real-world tanks anyway- but in practice, I find a lot of "conversions" are very, very basic, usually consisting of a cheap kit with an Imperial Aquila on the side and a lascannon glued somewhere, with very little to make it look more like an actual part of the 40K universe, or indeed, less like a real tank with a few errant bits glued on here and there. And whilst I would never refuse a game against someone using such a proxy, I might roll my eyes a little at particularly "minimum effort" conversions.

 

However, I hasten to add this is entirely an artistic/aesthetic preference, not a snobbery issue or some kind of purism with using GW models. I've seen some fantastic conversions based on old scale models (Rednekkboss' Nurgle bomber based on a P-47 Thunderbolt springs to mind) and when they have sufficient effort put into them, I have absolutely no problem with them. Indeed, my Death Guard will have two such conversions at minimum; the Blight Talon heavy bomber (a Hell Talon being extensively converted from an outrageously awful Testors 1/48 Phantom) and a Plague Mite tankette (a Blight Hauler based on an ancient Airfix 1/76 Sherman, complete with a kitbashed turret made from Tyranid parts and a LOT of putty).

I'm with you on this one. If the necessary effort is put into the conversion I'm perfectly fine with it but if it's clearly just "I took this cheap model and threw an aquilla on it" then I'll roll my eyes a bit like I roll my eyes when playing against a completely unpainted army etc.

I won't refuse to play against them because it's not really something outrageous but I also won't applaud them for their work or anything.

Reminder, the Ragnarok heavy tank is still canon:

 

If that seems familiar, that's because it is. Meet the Kliment Voroshilov 2 tank, also known as the KV-2 (or "king of derp" if you're a World of Tanks player)

 

There's an actual, official and made by GW/Forge World tank.... That is exactly what you brought up: A low effort conversion (probably just stuck a 1:35 or 1:28 scale KV-2 turret onto a Leman Russ chassis)

Edited January 25, 2020 by Gederas

[Lexington]

This is actually something I do a lot of with my own Ork army*, having been inspired ages ago by Scarpia's Gooba'z Wrecka. I mean, lookit this dang ol' thing:

Ever since witnessing that piece of work, I've based nearly all of my greenskin vehicles off of various scale model vehicles from Tamiya, Italeri and the like, typically WWII-era cargo trucks and Jeeps and whatnot, and crafted up matching background for my army about a particularly gruff, no-nonsense and shockingly sane Big Mek who assembles these things. The vehicles themselves get the heavy conversion treatment - chassis are extended with new wheel assemblies, uneven plasticard plates with big zonkin' rivets are applied liberally to the body, and all manner of Orky bits and bobs are added to bring the "fine scale" detailing more in line with 40K's chunky, eye-catching visual lingo.

I do this all purely out of an aesthetic preference. There's a special place in my heart for the junked-up forms and chunky, growling engines of Ray's Wrecker from Grindhouse, the trucks from William Friedkin's immortal Sorcerer and the jaw-dropping fleet of custom jobs from Fury Road, and I just want to make more of them. It's not always the easiest process (each of them tends to sit on my desk for years at a time, getting completed in fits of start-stop-start progress), but they're lots of fun.

So, yeah, I'm a fan of the process.

Of course, you're right, and plenty of people put no real effort into this sort of thing, and just get the models for the (relatively) low cost, or just because they like the look of a tank. I'll roll my eyes a bit at the former, tho I can at least understand the latter. Some people just don't have the time or skill set to put the kind of work into these things as others do, but I do live in hope that, at the very least, they'll get there some day.

* Getting a log up here soon, since my old one at The WAAAGH! seems to have gone down with the site...

Edited January 26, 2020 by Lexington

[Evil Eye]

 

Reminder, the Ragnarok heavy tank is still canon:

 

If that seems familiar, that's because it is. Meet the Kliment Voroshilov 2 tank, also known as the KV-2 (or "king of derp" if you're a World of Tanks player)

 

There's an actual, official and made by GW/Forge World tank.... That is exactly what you brought up: A low effort conversion (probably just stuck a 1:35 or 1:28 scale KV-2 turret onto a Leman Russ chassis)

Ah, the Ragnarok! I remembered it, but had forgotten how magnificent that conversion was. That particular one looks quite involved- it seems to have started with a Chimera, with double-width tracks, a pair of heavy bolter sub-turrets, the huge turret (which even if purloined from a kit would still need work to mate to the chassis) and by the looks of things a large amount of styrene scratchbuilding for the upper hull.

 

There's actually quite a few ideas I've had for IG tanks (well, traitor IG but that's me being a filthy heretic) that would involve either heavily 40K-ifying a scale kit or else grafting scale parts onto a 40K kit. A few of them I listed here, but as a summary, I love French armour and would love to make some proxies/conversions for traitor guard tanks inspired by that aesthetic; the in-universe justification for them being they were rare patterns from the forge world of Ambithan, now sadly fallen to an Ork WAAAGH! and thus no longer in production.

Some of the tank ideas in particular I have include:

>Ambithan pattern Scylla: Ruleswise identical to Sentinels, but represented as little tankettes instead, inspired somewhat by the Renault FT series. The Scylla was actually the first GW official counts-as by a guy who didn't greatly like the Sentinel and proxied them with tankettes made from heavily compacted Chimera parts.

>Ambithan pattern Chimera/Hellhound: Again, ruleswise totally identical to the codex entry, but with lovely rounded cast hulls. Inspired by the SOMUA S35 predominantly. Also the basis for the Pegasus light tank.

>Ambithan pattern Malcador: A Malcador of some form (probably a Defender or Annihilator as they are my favourites) represented by something that looks like the child of a Char B1 Bis and the Akuyaku #1 tank by Hayao Miyzaki. So a big rounded hull with a big hull-mounted cannon and a smaller weapon on the turret. Also the basis for the Stheno heavy tank.

>Somnea pattern Scylla: See Ambithan Scylla but inspired by the Vickers Mark V Light Tank and Universal Carrier instead.

>Somnea pattern Leman Russ: Ruleswise probably just a regular Leman Russ, but somewhat inspired by the M3 Lee/Grant. Would probably be mostly Leman Russ parts, with the body being reversed, the offset main gun sponson (bearing the battle cannon or other weapon) sitting over one of the tracks and the turret bearing the hull weapon instead. Could probably be achieved with almost entirely GW bits and styrene.

[jaxom]

I’m okay with it for a few reasons:

 

It can help someone stay in an expensive hobby.

It can be a very forgiving base for someone’s first forays into conversion work.

The 40k setting is large and there’s room for more to people to explore (all the Urdeshi pattern tanks for example).

 

I just stick with my usual wish: weapons are clearly identifiable and the model is indicative of rules; e.g. a T7 tank should look well armoured.

Edited January 25, 2020 by jaxom

[Canadian_F_H]

It is a tale as old as... Warhammer 40k and the deoderant bottle hover tank.

 

I am fully in support of the practice of converting historical acale vehicle kits into 40k/30k. The easiest avenue seams obvious. Orks. They loot things and bash them together and you can "hide" things by slapping orky bits on things. Like all the glyph plates and random things from the legit ork vehicle kits. This is definitly how i am getting around the rediculous forgeworld prices for many of the ork kits.

 

Perfect example. The 1/35 tamiya M41 walker bulldog is about $16USD and often free ahipping via amazon. I plan to convert them to be my counts as "ork Big Trakk with Supa-kannon" and luckily i found an amazing loot job online as a reference.

 

The kit is also fairly simple to build compared to other scale kits. Most scale kits have a bajillion tiny bits, most of which can be ignored by us anyways. All scale kits have entire wheel assemblies so you just have accept you will need to build the wheels and their suspensions and put on the tracks. But the tamiya 1/35 M41 (wait... M41? Meant to be!) is mainly only 4 parts!

 

Lower hull, upper hull, turret bottom turret top!

 

Then just a few sprues, one of which you will have to completely ignore because it is entirely 1/35 scale human crew which doesnt fit 40k at all.

 

 

EDIT!

 

found the link!

 

http://fav.me/d644yzh

Edited January 25, 2020 by Canadian_F_H

[Marshal Rohr]

If I remember correctly Lexington did this for his orks on another forum.

 

Edit: I’m a dummy he already posted in the thread :D

Edited January 25, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Lucerne]

If people can proxy 40k with stones and sticks (this literally has happened during the gulf war), a less than perfect proxy is nothing to get worked up about.

 

I've seen an amazing "Rhino" made using a Tamiya tank kit that blows the original out of the water. (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331356-heresy-era-legio-xiv-in-sterquiliniis-invenitur/)

[Goreshed]

There is a huge difference between someone who has put in the time and effort to represent the model they are trying to convert and someone who hasn't and is trying to do something in the cheapest way possible just to be cheap.

 

Ensure that all weapons and traits are there? Awesome! Spend considerable time ensuring that the scale is correct so that it is relatively close to what the conversion is? You're doing it right! Paint it with the same scheme as your army? Rock on!

 

Literally do next to nothing to make it look like it belongs in this universe we play in, let alone paint it to match your army? Pretty lame if you ask me.

[Lucerne]

There is a huge difference between someone who has put in the time and effort to represent the model they are trying to convert and someone who hasn't and is trying to do something in the cheapest way possible just to be cheap.

 

Ensure that all weapons and traits are there? Awesome! Spend considerable time ensuring that the scale is correct so that it is relatively close to what the conversion is? You're doing it right! Paint it with the same scheme as your army? Rock on!

 

Literally do next to nothing to make it look like it belongs in this universe we play in, let alone paint it to match your army? Pretty lame if you ask me.

I mean, I won't judge someone for saving money in this hobby, either? Both are valid, just for different reasons.

[Tyriks]

I would not use conversions or third party models that I feel do not fit with my army's visual profile.  But I don't care what my opponent brings as long as its not giving an unreasonable advantage.  If it actually looks like it fits in a game of 40k, cool.  If it's painted, that's cool, too.  But I don't care if someone is just trying to save some money or not.  The hobby is too expensive for me to care about that.  If someone tried to field an entire army of little green army men I might take issue but overall I don't care what anyone else is doing with their personal hobby.  I also don't care if my opponent likes what I have done with my army.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

There is a huge difference between someone who has put in the time and effort to represent the model they are trying to convert and someone who hasn't and is trying to do something in the cheapest way possible just to be cheap.

 

Ensure that all weapons and traits are there? Awesome! Spend considerable time ensuring that the scale is correct so that it is relatively close to what the conversion is? You're doing it right! Paint it with the same scheme as your army? Rock on!

 

Literally do next to nothing to make it look like it belongs in this universe we play in, let alone paint it to match your army? Pretty lame if you ask me.

 

I mean, I won't judge someone for saving money in this hobby, either? Both are valid, just for different reasons.

Nah I guess you just don’t get it.

[dice4thedicegod]

I've seen people using scale models to make Imperial Guard vehicles out of tanks (for example, dice4thedicegod made a Valhallan Macharius Vulcan out of a 1:35 scale Elefant Tank Destroyer, and it looks fine.:

Thanks!

 

I’m guilty of aircraft too - like the hind Valkyrie

 

 

 

I like this “creative” side of the hobby, but I try and make sure I observe the holy trinity of conversions:

- it’s about the right size /profile

- it has the right weapons /wysiwyg

- I paint it

[Lucerne]

 

 

There is a huge difference between someone who has put in the time and effort to represent the model they are trying to convert and someone who hasn't and is trying to do something in the cheapest way possible just to be cheap.

 

Ensure that all weapons and traits are there? Awesome! Spend considerable time ensuring that the scale is correct so that it is relatively close to what the conversion is? You're doing it right! Paint it with the same scheme as your army? Rock on!

 

Literally do next to nothing to make it look like it belongs in this universe we play in, let alone paint it to match your army? Pretty lame if you ask me.

I mean, I won't judge someone for saving money in this hobby, either? Both are valid, just for different reasons.

Nah I guess you just don’t get it.

 

No, I understand your kind of mistake quite well. I just don't mistake it for a positive.

 

 

 

 

I've seen people using scale models to make Imperial Guard vehicles out of tanks (for example, dice4thedicegod made a Valhallan Macharius Vulcan out of a 1:35 scale Elefant Tank Destroyer, and it looks fine.:

Thanks!

 

I’m guilty of aircraft too - like the hind Valkyrie

 

 

 

I like this “creative” side of the hobby, but I try and make sure I observe the holy trinity of conversions:

- it’s about the right size /profile

- it has the right weapons /wysiwyg

- I paint it

 

Is it weird that I'm acutally a fan of the shoulderpad-less guardsmen there more than the (also neat) counts as? Any particular trick to it or just careful filing?

Edited January 26, 2020 by Lucerne

[D3L]

 

 

Ensure that all weapons and traits are there? Awesome! Spend considerable time ensuring that the scale is correct so that it is relatively close to what the conversion is?

 

 

FWIW there is no 'scale' in 40k, the infantry and the vehicles vary inter and intra category

 

the universe is a big place, the weaponry even less standardised than our planet M2

 

the only thing to say, it's not sporting to make some proxy that doesn't conform to the rough dimensions of the official equivalent

 

[BrotherEndcat]

I play most of my games inside a GW store so I do need to be a bit careful about third party conversions, as such I don't see it within my gaming space currently unfortunately. This being said I have played MANY homebrew games with mates that have had converted WW1 and WW2 minis at home over my 16 years of hobby.

 

The one thing I will say and I think you are right about the whole lack of effort thing, one of my old mates back in the day used a russian ww2 tank shell for a leman russ for example (he had a soviet themed guard army), he made a real effort to convert the turret to fit the battle cannon, added the sponsons and added lots of parts to make it feel more '40k'. If he had just grabbed the tank and just stuck an aquila and maybe a crew out the hatch I'd think hes a bit of a numpty.

 

I guess it's all relative and really just how receptive your player base is around you, and thats the beautiful thing about the hobby, effort and taste is all different in our gaming lives.

[dice4thedicegod]

Is it weird that I'm acutally a fan of the shoulderpad-less guardsmen there more than the (also neat) counts as? Any particular trick to it or just careful filing?

 

The rank and file are actually more historical models (falschirmjager , I run them as steel legion), so there was trimming but only to get the weapon swaps to work (it’s amazing how bulky 40k weapons are when compared to real life!)

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by dice4thedicegod

[Arkhanist]

I have a huge amount of respect for those who put time and effort into big conversions, whether the 'base' kit is an official one (like a knight) or a 3rd party model. Frankly, for armies like orks, their stuff looks better if it's a ramshackle mix of heavy conversions, especially given the age of much of the range - like the trukk kit. They might be saving some money (particularly over forgeworld) but they're more than making up for it with their time. The IG/mechanicus can be the same, with care, as it's a big universe with a lot of different forge worlds and STC patterns in it so the fluff is - and should be - flexible; and xenos are always up to their tricks!

 

Tournaments can be different of course, but then that's up to the TO as to what conversions fit the 'spirit' of the event.

 

That's a very different kettle of fish from taking any old cheap different-scale tank kit, slapping a lascannon on it and calling it done. It's a step up from sticking a cardboard printout on the table, but not a big one. I wouldn't refuse to play it, but I wouldn't be particularly impressed either. I guess it's the indefinable part of 'The Hobby' - how much love and tears went into an army usually shows through.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If someone would use a terrible proxy using the excuse to save money there could be other issues encountered during a game.

[Lucerne]

If someone would use a terrible proxy using the excuse to save money there could be other issues encountered during a game.

"could"

[Lexington]

If someone would use a terrible proxy using the excuse to save money there could be other issues encountered during a game.

 

Or they could, y'know, be one of the many, many, many guys I've known throughout the years who really want to play 40K, but also live on the sort of budget that'd make collecting an army a years-long endeavor. Speaking as someone who can probably at least squeak into the classification of "gets it," I've definitely helped more than a couple such friends find cheap ways to get their forces bulked out so they can play in upcoming campaigns, and don't feel like it was any sin to do so. 40K is ludicrously expensive, and not everyone's lucky enough to be able to afford the cost of entry, much less the advanced-level material.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t want to play against super proxies... kills the immersion. Just play what you have .

[MARK0SIAN]

If the conversion has had some effort put into it and it doesn’t break immersion/looks like it belongs in whatever faction they’re playing then I’m fine.

 

I certainly sympathise with the cost issue in the hobby, it’s getting even worse with every new release. But equally, you’re here to play 40k so you want to be immersed in the visuals of that.

[Dam13n]

There are a few repeating arguments being made in this thread and it's very much circling (the drain) at this point.

 

Once you've made your point, there's no need to repeat it.

 

If this continues this thread will end up locked, you have been warned!