They kind of screwed Successor Chapters

[Ania Redfang]

Now this isn't new, but when it was just the codex, you could kind of get away with just saying your successors were dark angels. Now they've put in a bunch of rules stuff around successor chapters I've looked through it all and they have really screwed us in comparison to other space marine successors...

 

No chapter master strat...

 

No way to make a generic Master of companies 1 and 2...

 

Limited to either one piece of special issue wargear, or one relic, no options for multiple relics...

 

There may be more but it seems like GW have gone out of their way to add in rules for successor chapters only to make them worse in every way. In normal space marines you trade off access to the named characters and some relics for flexible chapter tactics. Dark Angel successors just lose out with no gains.

 

Am I right?

[Grimdark_Garage]

Just play as if you're army is DA dude. If your opponent has issue, don't play them.

 

I think GW have only put successor rules in their cos they're fluffy.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Or, play by the rules.

 

Yes, the Successor rules do make things a bit harder. But we now have Special Issue Wargear, and still have the Heavenfall Blade. We can also spend a CP to have any relic, so the option is there.

[Berzul]

The rules do not force a color scheme.

 

You don't have to agree with it, but that is the rule.

 

Personally? i play them as DA, and I just change all names for those of my own personal fluff.

 

My Grand Master is called Zerephiel.

My Master of the Librarium is called Evanor.

My Black Knights ride Felhae Bikes.

 

Etc.

 

Haven't met a single player that has given me problems sl far... But I do realize that is luck. Players do exist that will want to impose the color on you.

[Bryan Blaire]

The rules do not force a color scheme.

 

You don't have to agree with it, but that is the rule.

Exactly.

 

Still no written rules included stating what a color scheme is for the Dark Angels or any Successors, so there's no written rules to play by with regards to that.

 

Very hard to play the "Rules as Written" when the rules aren't written.

 

Otherwise you are playing "Rules as Interpreted", "Rules as Implied", or "Rules as Intended", etc., and everyone may have their own interpretation, or think something else is implied or intended, so not concrete at all as written rules would at least try to be.

 

I will fully agree I may have missed the paint scheme rules, so if someone can quote the paint scheme rules or at least provide a reference to where the written paint scheme rules are, that would be great (implications you think mean this don't need to be posted - only the rules that specifically reference how to paint the models to be a specific Chapter would fulfill this request).

[Cpt_Reaper]

There is no rule anywhere about if the colour of a Space Marine matters when using the Dark Angels Codex specifically, and neither is there a rule in Ritual of the Damned.

 

There is a rule about what Dark Angels can have and what Successors cannot have, as well as the requirement of paying a cost in Command Points if you are not using Dark Angels.

 

The issue is thus: What defines a Dark Angel and what does not. Yes, you can just slap the Dark Angels keyword on any marine you like, but in doing so you are actively not paying for the stratagem Honoured of the Rock which is stated to allow anything Successor chapter that is not the Dark Angels to bypass the restriction on relics.

 

Something has to define what can have the Dark Angels keyword and what is defined as a Successor and the only thing that can is the look of the model itself.

[Berzul]

As a successor player; and not even a mere successor player, but a custom and non-cannon successor player, I agree with you. Something must.

 

But there is no universaly accepted decision on that.

 

Color approaches it... But it's still not enough. It still remains a mere player-base rule, that you decide applies (or not) on a case by case basis.

 

In the end, we could very well chuck this up to "honor" even. If you KNOW you are a successor chapter, it becomes wrong then, to play them as something else?

[Syphid]

I feel the same way as Berzul.

 

I don't like having to pay CP to use a relic, and not having access to special characters that I could use in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th ed. But it kind of feels dishonest using my army as counts as Dark Angels.

 

Maybe we need to start an email campaign to get something in a rules update or chapter approved?

[Berzul]

I'd sign on to that

[Ania Redfang]

Thanks for everyone's input. I suppose I should clarify I play the majority of my games at Warhammer world eventa, which do have a rule about colour schemes, your army must represent in colour what they are in the rules. I would not be comfortable "counts as" my successor chapter as dark angels.

 

I agree with above posters as well, if you can just say your army is dark angels why bother putting in whole sections of the rules to spell out successor chapters?

 

All I want is multiple relics and a chapter master strat and I'd be happy

[Bryan Blaire]

Something has to define what can have the Dark Angels keyword and what is defined as a Successor and the only thing that can is the look of the model itself.

Incorrect - unless they specifically changed the main DA Codex in some way I haven't found - that might be true, I haven't gotten a lot of time to spend with Ritual of the Damned yet, but I don't remember seeing the change.

 

The DA Codex specifies:

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across datasheets with the DARK ANGELS keyword. This indicates that the unit is drawn from the Dark Angels Chapter

So - how does something define what has the Dark Angels keyword? The datasheets state if it does.

 

If you choose datasheets out of the Codex AA: Dark Angels, then the units have the Dark Angels keyword. The "something" that defines what has the DA keyword is already spelled out in the rules - nothing has to be implied by rules that aren't written, the rules that are written very specifically tell us how to determine this.

 

The Keywords section also goes on to say:

but the keyword can also be changed to represent that the unit is drawn from a successor Chapter of your choosing

Emphasis mine to aid in readability.

 

So, as we can read from the rules as written, we get a very specific rules definition on what defines something as a Successor for the purposes of the keywords - the player's choosing to change the keyword to a successor Chapter. That's the only thing that defines it per the rules from the Codex.

 

We've had this discussion before and no one has ever presented an written rules counter to this very simple operation as defined in the Codex AA: Dark Angels.

 

And again, if you absolutely want to play by the fluff, then of course you should choose to change your keyword if you aren't specifically playing what you see as the Dark Angels.

 

If you want to play by the rules as written, you automatically play with the Dark Angels by choosing datasheets out of the Codex AA: Dark Angels unless you specifically choose to change that keyword to a successor Chapter keyword.

 

So it's incorrect to say that the only thing that can define what can have a successor keyword vs. the Dark Angels keyword is the color scheme when the rules themselves give a specific definition on it.

 

Now, if you play somewhere that has house rules that define things outside the way the Codex is written, such as a gaming group, FLGS with posted house rules, or Warhammer World, then of course you choose to abide by those when you play there - that doesn't mean that those house rules supersede the Codex's rules for anywhere else - those are additional restrictions that it would be impossible for rules authors to take into account when writing an overarching rules supplement.

 

——————

 

And for those having an honor “issue” with playing successors/Unforgiven as “Counts As” Dark Angels - what exactly do the successor Unforgiven fight as, if not exactly “Counts As Dark Angels” in the fluff? That’s exactly what the Unforgiven are - proxy Dark Angels, it’s really never been any different. Previous editions of the rules even used to spell that out - the Unforgiven are all essentially the same, they hunt the same, use the same structures, etc.

 

GW has never actually shown us any other way to play an Unforgiven Chapter that isn’t “the Dark Angels” - there are some minor variations and some name changes, sure, but at the end of the day, the Master of the 1st Company of the Disciples of Caliban leads his company in essentially the same way and for the same reasons (other than the DoC being semi-Target Locked on Cypher) as Belial leads the Deathwing, yada yada - we can’t even be sure that the properties of their armaments aren’t identical, they may all be duplicate copies of Dark Age of Tech tech.

 

GW really hasn’t given us any answers other than some crap rules that don’t really reflect anything beyond “Can’t have the same names” type stuff - it doesn’t seem like they have even worked the DA/Unforgiven stuff out internally.

 

Let’s be realistic - we know more about how the Iron Snakes and Emperor’s Spears differ from the Ultramarines than we do about how the Guardians of the Covenant, Disciples of Caliban, or even the Consecrators differ from the Dark Angels.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Except, as I keep pointing our there is a cost involved now.

 

Honoured of the Rock costs 1 CP to allow a Successor to take a non-Successor Relic.

 

As there is now something with a quantifiable cost involved now it's not as simple as playing keywords to be fluffy or not. Choosing to use the Dark Angels keyword means you are actively avoiding paying that cost.

 

So again: as there is a cost to be paid for non-Dark Angels, how does one define what is a Dark Angel and what is not (IE a Successor)?

[Bryan Blaire]

You don’t choose the Dark Angels keyword. :facepalm:

 

The Codex makes that very clear. Read the Codex rules and stop trying to force your own interpretation on them - they are written very plainly. The rules already define what is a Dark Angels keyword’ed unit.

 

You automatically get the Dark Angels keyword by using datasheets from Codex AA: Dark Angels.

 

MYou must CHOOSE to use something else, per the very same rules. I’ve already quoted them.9

 

If you do choose, that’s on you - nothing in the rules says that you must make that choice.

 

If you want to argue that the written rules do force you to choose to use something other than the Dark Angels keyword for datasheets chosen out of Codex AA: Dark Angels, then post a quote of the rules text where it says that you must choose to do so. The Codex merely says that you CAN, which means it’s an option you are capable of taking, not something mandatory.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Then why does the stratagem even exist? Why is there a restriction at all in the codex and RotD in what Successors can do?

 

You can't choose not to pay a cost in this game. Either you HAVE to pay that cost or do no not.

[Spaced Hulk]

The Stratagem exists because there are now TWO ways to run a Successor Chapter.

 

In the past it was far simpler, you simply used the DA codex, and painted your models however you wanted.

 

Now, GW has also introduced official rules for Successors as well. The main Space Marine Codex does this quite effectively (in my opinion), by allowing you to pick your Successor's own Chapter Tactics (obviously this isn't a brand new thing, I think the 4th or 5th edition marine dex did it as well).

 

The DA codex follows the same format, but (as the original poster was stating) it does it quite poorly, as it simply takes options away without giving you benefits in return. But it works that way (and I presume the BA codex is the same) so that everything is standardized. In reality, the only reason to use the Dark Angels Successor rules is to get a nice, warm, fuzzy inner glow because of how fluffy your army is.

 

What Bryan and the others are trying to say is that NO-ONE, not even GW, can tell you how to paint your own models. It's impossible to legislate what is, essentially, an art form in that way. Because if you tried, where do you draw the line? If someone has used a different company's dark green paint rather than Caliban Green, are they still Dark Angels? If someone hasn't done a final edge highlight of Moot Green, is that model unfinished? It's ridiculous to even have that discussion. They're your models, to paint as you wish.

 

So if, for example, you have a bright red Unforgiven army, and decide to run it as a Dark Angels force rather than as a Successor, that's your choice. As long as you're using the DA keyword throughout, it's a legal army. You can justify it in fluff terms however you wish. Perhaps your Battle Company has repainted it's armour as a mark of shame, for failing in a previous mission. Perhaps they're using a codex approved camouflage scheme for operations on a desert planet. It really doesn't matter, as it's your army.

 

The rules at Warhammer World are designed, presumably, so that GWs core venue, it's showcase of it's products if you like, bears some resemblance to the products they advertise. Even so, I find it hard to believe they would have an issue with someone using what is obviously an Unforgiven army with the DA rules rather than as a Successor. If you were trying (for example) to use Space Wolves as Dark Angels it could be a different matter (ie: "yeah, these Thunderwolf Cavalry models are actually counting as Ravenwing Black Knights") but that's really not what we're talking about, is it?

 

 

* * *

 

So in summary, yes the DA Successor rules are extremely limited, especially compared to the main Space Marine Codex. 

 

However, no-one is making you use them rather than the normal DA rules.

 

The choice really is yours. 

[shabbadoo]

Now this isn't new, but when it was just the codex, you could kind of get away with just saying your successors were dark angels. Now they've put in a bunch of rules stuff around successor chapters I've looked through it all and they have really screwed us in comparison to other space marine successors...

 

No chapter master strat...

 

No way to make a generic Master of companies 1 and 2...

 

Limited to either one piece of special issue wargear, or one relic, no options for multiple relics...

 

There may be more but it seems like GW have gone out of their way to add in rules for successor chapters only to make them worse in every way. In normal space marines you trade off access to the named characters and some relics for flexible chapter tactics. Dark Angel successors just lose out with no gains.

 

Am I right?

No, not really. Codex; Space Marines is meant to be representative of  thousands of Chapters with all manner of variant practices to those of their many parent Chapters, and so the book is written to very specifically cater to that. Dark Angels Successors have the least reason to have access to customizable rules in the way many Successors do. The is because The Unforgiven are only...technically...made up of a parent Chapter and a bunch of Successors. In reality, they operate clandestinely as a single Legion. As a Legion, they operate using the same Chapter organization, same tactics/methods, same equipment, etc. They each might call these things by different names, but they are all literally the same. As such, there is no variation - there is only the The Lion's Way. And so, perhaps, GW has left all the extra stuff out for that reason, just as they did for Blood Angels and for the most part Space Wolves. Now, I do think it would be rather nice o them to have included some more Chapter Master characters (Flesh Tearers got Seth in Codex: Blood Angels at least) and other HQs for at least some of the Successors so as to have a little bit of variance.

 

GW's general rule of "the color should match the rules" is just there to keep people from fielding a Dark Angels army as an Ultramarines army, or similar; especially for the basic units that every Chapter has. If you are playing an army painted up as one of the Dark Angels Successors, then you are quite literally following the GW rule if you use Dark Angels rules. 

 

As to variant Chapter rules of any kind, if you want to play a Dark Angels Successor that is nothing like the Dark Angels, well, there is book just for you, and it is called Codex: Space Marines. If you do so, it would be best to not use any Dark Angels iconography though. As an example, one might create a [not] Dark Angels Successor Chapter that favors heavy/special weapon units and tanks. Its origins lie in the distant past, and they only show up *twice* in Imperial Records - once upon its inception, and once more when the Chapter was initially deployed to some obscure war front where Imperial forces were thought to have been entirely wiped out. Records of the conflict were mostly scrubbed (can't have Imperial citizens knowing about catastrophes, and what not), and so the Chapter is effectively unknown. Well, they weren't wiped out, and the Dark Angels preferred not to correct that assumption, because this Chapter was very much created to *not* prosecute war in The Lion's usual way. This Chapter has only one purpose -annihilation. That is because its genesis is the dissolution of the Hexagramaton. At its inception, this Chapter was formed solely of elements of the former Dreadwing, and the Dark Angels very much prefer that *no one* have any knowledge of any link between The Unforgiven and this Chapter, it being held mostly in reserve for a very special purpose, which appears to now be in the process of coming to fruition...

 

...and so you open up Codex: Space Marines, choose the rules you want to use, build your HQs however you want to, take whatever units you want to, paint your army however you want, and then beat people down in the manner you have chosen.

 

You just don't get to do it using any Dark Angles specific units. If you want to use those units in this context, then you have to go with Unforgiven rules/color schemes. That being said, you should probably talk to the organizers at Warhammer World, as they might be very inclined to allow Unforgiven forces painted in non-Unforgiven colors when the army is very obviously made up of Unforgiven unit models (i.e. Deathwing Knights, Sammael, Black Knights, Darkshroud/Vengeance Land Speeders, Dark Talons, etc.).

[Malaconia]

I want to add a couple of things to this discussion. First of all, what Spaced Hulk and Bryan Blaire are saying is correct. As of this moment, that one stratagem is optional. It's not optional because it was made to be optional, it's simply optional because there exists no rule that forces you to use it. Simple as that. But what I am worried about is the future. What if in the near future GW decides to lay out a guide or an official FAQ that clarifies this problem by stating Dark Angels are green the same way as Ultramarines are blue and Imperial Fists are yellow. What then?

 

It would be madness, sure. It would be forcing a color scheme, but seeing GW's track record of protecting their IP, which may include official paint schemes too, I can see them going that way in the future. I hope not, but it's possible. If they did that, I assume people would just ignore those rules as would most major tournaments, but it's still a bit unsettling. I don't like it how they try to promote their own chapters over fan made for no reason at all. Actually the whole successors can only use chapter relics by spending a CP is a poorly thought out rule that adds nothing to the game. Custom traits in Space Marine codex aren't more powerful than the official original legion traits, so why not let them use relics just as freely? Personally, there comes my paranoia that this is GW slowly moving towards controlling how people should paint their products, as on the whole they've moved to a less customization friendly direction. Why not add another layer by enforcing proper paints alongside their models?

 

Anyway, I've been playing Dark Angels since 2007, I have a wide range of old marines including all special characters, but my army is painted in inverted colors. Armor is white while the chapter symbol is green. Everything is from DA range though, so everyone has the same chapter symbol as Dark Angels just painted differently. Models are all official. Should they choose to enforce color scheme there is no way I would follow. Should I just never use my Azrael, Ezekiel, Asmodai and Sammael because my 'successor' chapter doesn't/can't have a chief librarian, chapter master or a master of ravenwing? Great, I suppose they just must be the worst marines in the galaxy. This turned out to be kind of a rant, but this color scheme and stratagem thing really pisses me off. It isn't like Dark Angels are the best marine army out there, rules wise, but I've still stuck with them throughout the years because of fluff and great models, despite occasional subpar rules. Only thing I disagree on, is their paint scheme. I don't like the color green, yeah I said it, on a Dark Angels forum.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Can someone just answer my question rather than telling me the answer to a question I didn't ask?

 

Why does Honoured of the Rock exist with a cost in CP if one can choose to ignore it? Because the second anything with a cost was introduced, avoiding paying that cost is cheating.

[Malaconia]

Fair enough. It likely exists in Dark Angels codex because GW copypasted it from Space Marine codex without giving it any thought. It isn't the first time they've done that.

 

It is there if you want to use it. If you want to spend a CP on it, be my guest. But if your army is Dark Angles (be they painted in any way you want) you don't have to use it, not unless you specifically declare that your army is in fact a successor chapter and you do the keyword swap. Keyword swap is what matters. Nothing else.

 

There it is, when you make an army list, and if you say, print it out and call your army something else than Dark Angels then I suppose there is an argument to be made that you have to spend the CP, though certainly no unreasonable person/opponent would demand that. BUT if you name your army Dark Angels (be they painted in any way you want)  and you use the Dark Angels keyword and they have the correct DA models, you don't have to pay the CP. It's not cheating, if anyone is cheating, it's GW by letting rules like that slip out. It is a rule that is not enforced.

 

Maybe it is enforced in Warhammer world, in which case you should do as Shabbadoo suggested, ask them to be reasonable and hope for the best.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Malaconia

[Cpt_Reaper]

Ok. Thank you. I won't push anyone to use the stratagem but I will use it because I feel exceedingly uncomfortable not doing so. I feel like I'm cheating doing otherwise.

 

I sincerely hope this is addressed in a FAQ. Alongside a few other things here and there.

[Malaconia]

I understand why it would feel uncomfortable. Personally, I almost did decide to you use it too. It's just one CP after all, but then I realized, why should I? Using it makes your army a LOT weaker than what a regular Dark Angels force would be, by cutting off options and giving absolutely nothing in return. I think this is why people don't like it. You make your army worse for no reason at all, but fluff, I suppose. It is an arbitrary rule.

 

In my case I guess it's just a matter of how much I am willing to handicap myself. I already use only old marines, no primaris at all. Why should I handicap myself further by not using Sammael and paying a CP for the privilege? It makes no sense. Also I have bought all the rules. I have paid exactly the same for my army as any Dark Angels player would have. It is an official army. Only difference is, my paint scheme is different. I just can't see any reason why I'd use that rule, it would bother me too much. Basically it takes away my options because of a random thing such as which colors I prefer.

 

 

edit. I don't know if using the stratagem makes Dark Angels a LOT weaker, depends on what units you use I suppose, but it certainly makes them somewhat weaker, because then you also can't use the special characters. I am used to Dark Angels being weaker than other marines (except maybe Black Templars, which incidentially I also collect) for far too long, I don't want give up everything, especially models that I've bought and painted.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Malaconia

[Berzul]

I understand why it would feel uncomfortable. Personally, I almost did decide to you use it too. It's just one CP after all, but then I realized, why should I? Using it makes your army a LOT weaker than what a regular Dark Angels force would be, by cutting off options and giving absolutely nothing in return. I think this is why people don't like it. You make your army worse for no reason at all, but fluff, I suppose. It is an arbitrary rule.

 

In my case I guess it's just a matter of how much I am willing to handicap myself. I already use only old marines, no primaris at all. Why should I handicap myself further by not using Sammael and paying a CP for the privilege? It makes no sense. Also I have bought all the rules. I have paid exactly the same for my army as any Dark Angels player would have. It is an official army. Only difference is, my paint scheme is different. I just can't see any reason why I'd use that rule, it would bother me too much. Basically it takes away my options because of a random thing such as which colors I prefer.

 

 

edit. I don't know if using the stratagem makes Dark Angels a LOT weaker, depends on what units you use I suppose, but it certainly makes them somewhat weaker, because then you also can't use the special characters. I am used to Dark Angels being weaker than other marines (except maybe Black Templars, which incidentially I also collect) for far too long, I don't want give up everything, especially models that I've bought and painted.

I'm on almost the same situation.

 

Playing a successor in any codex is automatically worse than playing a parent chapter.

 

But, in tje Space Marine Codex, trading away relics and named characters, has the benefit of getting a custom chapter tactic that suits your play style.

 

In our codex you get nothing but the personal satisfaction from the righteous decision to play by the fluff. And you pay for it by spending extra CP, limiting your choice of relics, and denying yourself special characters.

 

Again, you lose everything and gain nothing. Nothing, aside from your own personal satisfaction at being honorable in playing per the fluff.

 

And, if that is what you like, go for it. I do! Often!

 

But, at the same time, there will be times when these baddly made successor rules are just not an option if you want to stay competitive.

 

I normally played the successors per the rules. But, seeing how limiting the rules are, when I began going to tournaments, I quickly realized that noone cared about it, and that playing this way would bring me honor, but also defeat after defeat. The handicap became too much, on a codex that already is subpar (to an extent) when compared to other chapters.

 

So, yeah...

 

All units are dark angels. And you THEN can choose to make em successors. And I do, when I play with my friends and want to have fun. And sometimes I don't, when I play against someone with the sole objective of crushing me in a single round with the most over the top combo of units.

 

In the end, YOU choose how to play your army. Staying loyal to the colors, despite the costs, is a decision we each make. Based on what we want to do at the time.

 

And, any who look at the cost and expect more out of it? Well, the Lion said it best.

 

Loyalty is it's own reward.

[Malaconia]

I'll add another example, just for fun. I have an army of Black Templars, sort of. Back in 2005 when the army came out, I immediatly loved it all, the fluff, aesthetic, all of it. But I didn't want to paint black. I already had a CSM army that was basically painted black. I wanted something different. So, I bought all the official models, Helbrecht, crusader squads etc... but I painted them in Imperial Fists colors, yellow and black. They were my Knights of Terra, Imperial Fists successor that fought like Black Templars and for years they did.

 

Now that Black Templars got new rules, I'll admit, I didn't like them. I had grown tired of them underperfoming, plus the playstyle didn't work. I am not saying you can't make them work, I am sure someone can, but I couldn't, not anymore. I bought Imperial Fists supplement and made them an official successor. Some sword brethren became company champions, some didn't find a place in the army including special characters, but it didn't matter, I was getting something in return, an army that was fun to play. But in all my years, I never considered making them White Scars or whatever, even when Scars were at the top. Knights of Terra was always related to Imperial Fists. It was either Fists or Templars. Almost always I played them as Templars. Funny thing is, if color were to be enforced, I couldn't play them as Black Templars anymore anyway, since Templars don't have successors, only Fists have.

 

Anyway, when it came to my Templars I didn't mind losing some options, because I wanted to try something new. But that isn't the case with my Dark Angels. I want them to stay the way they always were. If GW were to give me an incentive to use successor rules, new special characters, special rules, new relics, anything, then I might make my white Dark Angels in to a proper successor.

[jaxom]

What if in the near future GW decides to lay out a guide or an official FAQ that clarifies this problem by stating Dark Angels are green the same way as Ultramarines are blue and Imperial Fists are yellow. What then?

 

It would be madness, sure. It would be forcing a color scheme, but seeing GW's track record of protecting their IP, which may include official paint schemes too, I can see them going that way in the future.

 

In some ways this has already happened. Chapter badges are part of the IP and they're what visually define the identity of a space marine's chapter. There's no rule specifying paint schemes, but every piece of context and every chapter-specific miniature suggests that the WYSIWYG for a chapter is it's chapter badge. I can choose to paint Azrael or Calgar or Dante whatever colors I want, but if I am using the miniature-as-bought then they're marked by their chapter badges.

 

Can someone just answer my question rather than telling me the answer to a question I didn't ask?

 

Why does Honoured of the Rock exist with a cost in CP if one can choose to ignore it? Because the second anything with a cost was introduced, avoiding paying that cost is cheating.

 

This goes back to the issue of player honour and re-skinning when rules are lacking. GW released official rules for Dark Angels Successor Chapters. They've proactively implemented rules to differentiate the parent chapter, but did not follow through on it (unlike Codex: Space Marines). If we're lucky, that will be fixed with an errata and successors will get access to Chapter Master and the other chapter HQ stratagems (Master of the Forge, Chapter Ancient, etc). Until then, an army lacking the Dark Angel chapter badge, but using their rules and special characters is violating the designer's intent. However, the designer's intent and execution make it so the simplest approach is to fall back on the decades of "counts-as" the community is already used to. It's so ubiquitous - among all subcultures playing the game. 

 

I understand why it would feel uncomfortable. Personally, I almost did decide to you use it too. It's just one CP after all, but then I realized, why should I? Using it makes your army a LOT weaker than what a regular Dark Angels force would be, by cutting off options and giving absolutely nothing in return. I think this is why people don't like it. You make your army worse for no reason at all, but fluff, I suppose. It is an arbitrary rule.

 

In my case I guess it's just a matter of how much I am willing to handicap myself. I already use only old marines, no primaris at all. Why should I handicap myself further by not using Sammael and paying a CP for the privilege? It makes no sense. Also I have bought all the rules. I have paid exactly the same for my army as any Dark Angels player would have. It is an official army. Only difference is, my paint scheme is different. I just can't see any reason why I'd use that rule, it would bother me too much. Basically it takes away my options because of a random thing such as which colors I prefer.

 

 

edit. I don't know if using the stratagem makes Dark Angels a LOT weaker, depends on what units you use I suppose, but it certainly makes them somewhat weaker, because then you also can't use the special characters. I am used to Dark Angels being weaker than other marines (except maybe Black Templars, which incidentially I also collect) for far too long, I don't want give up everything, especially models that I've bought and painted.

 

^This, I imagine is what most people would consider an appropriate response (I know I do). Codex: Space Marines fixed the problem, as Berzul said, with Successor Chapter Tactics. Dark Angels don't have that so why should they be held to the same standard?

[ValourousHeart]

It is rules like Honoured By The Rock that should let the community know that GW thinks that some of the questions they get from us are stupid.

 

You have a choice to make... either play 40k your way or Games Workshop's way.

 

Your way seems to obstinately stick to a path that leads you to frustration and irritation.

 

As for GW's way... well let's just put it this way.

JJ wrote an article bragging about how he has played his marine army using every marine codex ever written, they have been every chapter.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ValourousHeart