They kind of screwed Successor Chapters

[Cpt_Reaper]

I don't understand your point VH. What questiond do you mean the GW thinks are stupid? And how can there be a GW way vs Your way? You either play the game the GW way or you're using houserules.

[Berzul]

Well, I'm guessing "house rules = your way".

 

In the end, what we know for certain is:

 

1) If you play DA models, its an army per the DA Codex, hence a DA army.

2) If you play a DA army, it is Faction Keyword Dark Angels, automatically.

3) You can then choose to change or swap that keyword for whatever Successor Chapter you want (be it cannon or of your own creation). If you do, you cannot take Named Characters, or relics beyond the Heavenfall Blade.

4) You can then spend one CP to use Honored by the Rock, to allow yourself to choose your one relic from one of the ones in the DA Codex, aside from the Heavenfall Blade.

5) DA is an army that uses a sigil of wings and a sword, and is meant to be painted green. Successors are free to be whatever color they want to be, and use whatever sigil they want to use. In either case, this is not a rule, but it is clearly shown in all the lore of the game.

 

So, in the end, you can decide to either stick to the letter of the rules and play the army as DA no matter the color;

 

Or,

 

You can decide to play the army to the spirit of the lore, and only play them as Dark Angels and not as successors, when they are painted in the official color palette from GW.

 

Thing is, unless GW, or someone with authority (such as a TO) forces you to do it one way or the other, it is still your choice.

 

Regardless of WHY you choose one way of playing over the other, in the end, it is still your choice. Which I think makes sense. It is your army. Play it how you think, feel, and like it to be played best.

 

There are plenty of valid reasons to do it one way or the other, and noone should really demand the other to do it their way, or shame another for doing it a different way.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Berzul

[Cpt_Reaper]

And thus the only issue I have left to solve is Honoured of the Rock.

 

Dark Angels keyword - CHOICE

Successor keyword - CHOICE

Paying the cost of a stratagem - NO CHOICE 

 

Nothing enforces what can have the Dark Angels keyword, and nothing enforces what can't. HotR implies there is such a distinction, yet there is not.

 

I feel like I am cheating or allowing cheating if I don't enforce a distinction because of HotR. And I am terrified of being accused of cheating. I also now feel like That Guy if I enforce such a distinction, which is an even bigger fear for me.

 

I just want a fun game for both parties within the rules. HotR means I am wrong in every situation and...that hurts.

[ValourousHeart]

I don't understand your point VH. What questiond do you mean the GW thinks are stupid? And how can there be a GW way vs Your way? You either play the game the GW way or you're using houserules.

 

It is the players choice on which codex and chapter or successor chapter they use.

It is also the players choice on what color scheme to paint their models.

 

There are no rules that dictate what color you models must be painted in order to use certain rules.

The clearest example of this is the Ork rule of "Red ones go Faster", or however they spell it, has no requirement that you use red paint on your model.

 

If you as a player feels that one choice dictates another choice, that is your choice.

But the reality is that all of your choices are independent choices free of any connection to other choices you have made or will make.

 

GW way vs Your way - in a nut shell.

Your way is the community arguing over RAW vs RAI... GW way is beer and pretzels

Your way is a player giving themselves an ulcer over this stratagem.... GW way is JJ writting an article in WD bragging about how he has played his marine army using every marine codex ever written.

 

 

And thus the only issue I have left to solve is Honoured of the Rock.

 

Dark Angels keyword - CHOICE

Successor keyword - CHOICE

Paying the cost of a stratagem - NO CHOICE 

 

Nothing enforces what can have the Dark Angels keyword, and nothing enforces what can't. HotR implies there is such a distinction, yet there is not.

 

I feel like I am cheating or allowing cheating if I don't enforce a distinction because of HotR. And I am terrified of being accused of cheating. I also now feel like That Guy if I enforce such a distinction, which is an even bigger fear for me.

 

I just want a fun game for both parties within the rules. HotR means I am wrong in every situation and...that hurts.

 

If you feel so strongly about it then CHOOSE to use the Dark Angel Keyword, and avoid that stratagem entirely.

 

Then if your opponent accuses you of cheating demand that they show you the rule in the codex or BRB where a particular color scheme is strictly enforced on the players.

While the judge is there be sure to make a counter claim about unsportsmanlike conduct on your opponent for trying to get you ejected on a bogus charge.

Then leave it to the judge on who gets ejected.

 

If you still end up playing that guy, make him regret accusing you of cheating.

Dice rolls on the floor... count it as a miss.

If he forgets something important... tell him that sucks, moving on.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[Berzul]

Again, honored by the rock is not FORCED.

 

First, your army IS dark angels, and you CHOOSE to change that, and make them successors.

 

Then you can DECIDE whether or not to pay a CP for the stratagem, to allow yourself choice of a relic beyond the Heavenfall Blade.

 

So, nothing here is FORCED. You have a choice to make, all the way from whether or not playing as successors, to having your choice of a relic other than the Heavenfall Blade.

 

+++

 

EDIT: As for playing in a fun way... i really think this is something that will be sorted out on a case by case basis.

 

Some people won't mind. Others will.

 

Just, play your army how YOU feel it should be played, and how YOU like to play it. You can see that either way is LEGAL. The rest? Is all up to you.

 

Enjoy your army, and try to not get caught up in such issues when it will bring you no good. Play the army you WANT to play. And, when in doubt, discuss it with your opponent. Talking it over will sort this out 9.99 times out of 10.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Berzul

[Deadman Wade]

Painting Samael pink and calling him Sam the Mad Biker from Sons of Anarchy chapter is legal and has been legal for decades.

As for Honoured of the Rock stratagem, well, GW is notorious for having obscure and plain idiotic wording in their products and for lazy copy-pasting (CSM raptors and melta guns for 4 editions, anyone?), and DA "successors" is one of these.

There are no benefits in changing Dark Angels keyword, unless you find masochistic pleasure in handicapping yourself for some RAI thing that no one but you will notice.

[Berzul]

We must emphazise, though:

 

If you want to play as a successor chapter, you definetly can. And you can use Honored by the Rock, or not. It's fine.

 

You are not cheating by doing things one way or the other, and you are not "playing the game wrong" one way or the other.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Let me put it this way... I played a DA before there were sucessor rules just by using DA Codex. Since there is no mandatory reason use the DA sucessor options I use the DA Codex because it is still the simplest way to field a sucessor. Now unless there is a GW official codex for my sucessor or a mandate that forbid me to use the DA rules I won't see it changing.

[Indefragable]

In my (not always humble) opinion the way to handle this would be for Successor chapters; not just DA but Successors of all stripes to have the following:

 

-Options for generic Chapter Master and other top echelon characters without spending CP. For the Chapter Master example, they could have a flavorful ability that all chapters of a given lineage get. I.e. all DA Successor  CM’s get +1CP or such in addition to the re-roll aura. But Azreal gets +2CP and the 4++ Lion Helm to keep him a Special Named character (and is coated appropriately). 
 

-Rules state that a <Chapter Master> from a <Successor Chapter> can not be taken in the same army as Azreal. 
 

-Rules state that any “top echelon” characters from <Successor Chapters> can only be taken if every model in the army is from the the <Successor Chapter>.

 

-Perhaps a rule that states the CM can take one Relic or Special Issue Wargear for fre

 

-The ability for Successor chapters to take additional SIW to make up for fewer Relics.

 

The idea here is to let Successors get a taste without having That Guy bring 4 Chapter Masters. Similarly, it helps define what all <Unforgiven> or <Sons of the Khan> or <The Blood> have in common while allowing differentiation and also making special characters....well....special. 
 

 

The downside is the inability to represent something like Devaststio of Baal—where multiple C:’s all foughtnside by side—on the tabletop, but one could argue whether that should be represented on the TT out of custom scenarios. Also, one step at a time. 

[TheFinisher4Ever]

Honored by the Rock exists solely to bring Dark Angels in line with all of the other marine chapters. All of the other chapters have a similar rule. The big difference is that there is a reason to use successor chapters for all of the other chapters. With DA, there is no crunch reason to use a successor.

 

Codex space marines has their mix and match chapter traits. Blood Angels have flesh Tearers. Currently, Dark Angels have no reason to use successor chapters, but GW still wanted to bring them in line and future proof them in case they ever wanted to release rules/models for a DA successor.

[Berzul]

In my (not always humble) opinion the way to handle this would be for Successor chapters; not just DA but Successors of all stripes to have the following:

 

-Options for generic Chapter Master and other top echelon characters without spending CP. For the Chapter Master example, they could have a flavorful ability that all chapters of a given lineage get. I.e. all DA Successor  CM’s get +1CP or such in addition to the re-roll aura. But Azreal gets +2CP and the 4++ Lion Helm to keep him a Special Named character (and is coated appropriately). 

 

-Rules state that a <Chapter Master> from a <Successor Chapter> can not be taken in the same army as Azreal. 

 

-Rules state that any “top echelon” characters from <Successor Chapters> can only be taken if every model in the army is from the the <Successor Chapter>.

 

-Perhaps a rule that states the CM can take one Relic or Special Issue Wargear for fre

 

-The ability for Successor chapters to take additional SIW to make up for fewer Relics.

 

The idea here is to let Successors get a taste without having That Guy bring 4 Chapter Masters. Similarly, it helps define what all <Unforgiven> or <Sons of the Khan> or <The Blood> have in common while allowing differentiation and also making special characters....well....special. 

 

 

The downside is the inability to represent something like Devaststio of Baal—where multiple C:’s all foughtnside by side—on the tabletop, but one could argue whether that should be represented on the TT out of custom scenarios. Also, one step at a time. 

I like this.

 

In the end, the edge or advantage of an official chapter over a successor, is that the official chapter has characters such as Chapter Masters, Masters of Sanctity, Masters of the Librarius, and the like, without having to pay extra CP for them. On a codex that already has big problems getting good amounts of CP, this is very crippling.

 

Now, not only do we not even have the option to do so, but if we did, to bring your own Chapter's Azrael and Ezekiel, for instance, would cost you 2 CP right off the game. For a decent relic? Another CP. So, you already spend your entire Battleforged CP just so you can get back into a decent standing next to your parent chapter.

 

This is just nonsense. Successors are not in any way less capable, less tactical, less competent, less skilled, or less strategic than any other chapter just by virtue of being successors. What is this CP Tax, then, supposed to represent? Why would a chapter have basic less CP than another?

 

The mechanic for successors is just wrong. And in that sense, I see no point on forcing someone to play by them.

 

+++

 

EDIT: Again, do what you find is best for you, but the issue remains... Why is it that successors are forced to spend CP to get to the same level as cannon chapters? Not even progenitor chapters, just any chapter officially created by GW. Consider chapters such as Black Templars, Crimson Fists... these guys are successors, yet they have their own Chapter Masters and their own relics. They do not need to spend any CP or anything.

 

What is the justification here?

 

If we are to be bound by lore over rules, and RAI over RAW, and handicap ourselves by playing marines of a different color... what is indeed the lore reason, or the RAI reason, behind this? Why is it that a chapter has less tactical competency and ability over another (which would be reflected on their lower number of Command Points, when equipped to an equivalent level of ability and competence in combat)?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Berzul

[bigtrouble]

the chapter master and chapter command strats are trading CP for points. Not sure I’ve ever done the math, but it’s probably like 15-20 pts per CP?

[Indefragable]

I think the CP cost for CMs and Master of Sanctity et al is to get people to pick the one they really want rather than always taking the better version. Why would you ever bring a Chaplain when you could pay a little extra for a Master of Sanctity? CP are a finite resource hence I think that’s the designers’ intention. 

[Master Sheol]

IMHO in GW mind there is no question.

DA are the ones that use green armours with White winged sword on shoulder and has bone white first company and jet black second company.

I am pretty sure that if you ask Jervis Johnson or another guy at GW 40k studio he will open the codex, go to fluff section and showing you the DA/DW/RW colo schemes he will say:

"If you paint your army like this you are DA, if not you are a successor chapter"

 

Now we can disagree about that and complain that successors don't have a proper 1st/2nd company master and chapter master (i agree that they have to the successors a not needed shorter straw) but i think this is what GW mean when they write "Dark Angels Chapter" and "Successor Chapter"

 

P.S.: the stratagems that trades CP to transform a unit into another one (Captain to Chapter Master, Chaplain to Master of Sanctity, and so on) are a total nonsense to me and force the list building towards the detachments, warlord traits, relics, special characters that gives you more CP or help you to recover the CP spent making 40k a CP generation game instead of a wargame. I always liked better the good old "X unit can get better stats/rules paying Y points".

Edited January 29, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Bryan Blaire]

We can think that all we want, but in the absence of a rule, that argument holds no water...

 

That's the point of rules, to provide the structure under which the game is to be played. Unwritten rules aren't rules, and "spirit of the game" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. If GW wants the game played only according to the fluff, then they better start writing some rules that encode that for everyone to follow.

 

Right now, they haven't written the rules that way - the Codex doesn't say "reference the images of Dark Angels models in this Codex to determine if you are playing Dark Angels", it gives a very specific method to determine if your datasheets for the models are Dark Angels - did you pick them from the Codex AA: Dark Angels and does the datasheet say "Keywords: Dark Angels" on them? If so, do you choose to change that keyword to another Unforgiven Chapter keyword? If not, they retain the Dark Angels keyword.

 

There are no other instructions given, and if GW wants different instructions, they need to write them.

 

They probably won't and will keep things like that to house-rules for their house. That's the beauty of house rules - they allow you and your gaming group to adjust the basics that GW has given to match the style of play that the group enjoys.

 

After all, this is the same company that has an official Successor for a Chapter and absolutely no rules in the Codex for said Chapter to play a Successor at all - it'd be pretty damned hard to "play the fluff" in that situation...

 

Yes, GW's Unforgiven Successor rules leave many things to be desired. The rules as written don't require you to use them. If the house rules do, it's on you and your group to decide if they can be changed.