Who counts as a Fallen?

[Moonreaper666]

Let's say our hypothetical Dark Angel was on Caliban when it blew up and sent them all over time and space

 

This Astarte was in a coma before Luther pulled his coup and has no idea about it. He ends up in a Loyalist Imperial world a thousand years after the Heresy and then woke up.

 

Would the Unforgiven consider him a Fallen or one of their own?

[Kelborn]

Interesting topic.

 

But completely wrong sub forum.

 

Moved into the halls of the Rock.

[Grotsmasha]

Definitely Fallen. He was on Caliban, under Luther, the DA will never trust him. He will be interrogated, and even if they believe him will probably still be executed.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If he was sent through time and space then he was in Luther's side, thus he is a Fallen. Case closed.

[Interrogator Stobz]

We are all very tolerant here at the Rock. Very Tolerant.

 

He gets a Paddling for being the Fallen Traitor Scum he is.

[Grand Master Belial]

I am partially of the belief that he would have been killed when the planet broke apart. I don't think any of the Ruinous Powers would have cared a bit for a marine that was in stasis during the time of Luther. The Powers would have taken those that were corrupted or corruptible. The only exception would be the minor power of Malal which has not been in GW canon for a LOOOOONG time. That would be the one power to take those who were loyal at least to the Emperor and scatter them just to thwart the other Gods and probably the benefactor behind Cypher.

[Moonreaper666]

Definitely Fallen. He was on Caliban, under Luther, the DA will never trust him. He will be interrogated, and even if they believe him will probably still be executed.

Wow, the Dark Angels are just as worst as the Iron Warriors, in their own way. The Black Legion has more brotherhood than these Unforgiven (wouldn't surprise me if the BL accepted Primaris into their ranks with more open arms than the DA)

 

Kinda wished that the Grey Knights blackmailed them into attacking the Space Wolves during the Months of Shame. Surprised Chaos didn't tell Goge Vandire about Caliban as Vandire would make them his attack dogs.

 

I just don't get it. It's not like they are the only Loyalist Legion that had traitors during the Heresy. The Custodes know about Caliban yet never did anything about it. Heck, both Russ (provided Magnus didn't kill him in the Warp) and Corax probably know about it as well

[Interrogator Stobz]

You doubt our hate?

 

Have you Fallen too?

[Master Sheol]

 

Definitely Fallen. He was on Caliban, under Luther, the DA will never trust him. He will be interrogated, and even if they believe him will probably still be executed.

Wow, the Dark Angels are just as worst as the Iron Warriors, in their own way. The Black Legion has more brotherhood than these Unforgiven (wouldn't surprise me if the BL accepted Primaris into their ranks with more open arms than the DA)

 

Kinda wished that the Grey Knights blackmailed them into attacking the Space Wolves during the Months of Shame. Surprised Chaos didn't tell Goge Vandire about Caliban as Vandire would make them his attack dogs.

 

I just don't get it. It's not like they are the only Loyalist Legion that had traitors during the Heresy. The Custodes know about Caliban yet never did anything about it. Heck, both Russ (provided Magnus didn't kill him in the Warp) and Corax probably know about it as well

If you question the First Legion loyalty you are a traitors too and we have out ways to deal with traitors ;)

 

Other loyal legions had her traitors and they had tondeal with It

DA deal theirs in their own way cause they were scattered through time and space

 

The situation presented Is a very off One cause theorically warp took only the DA that sided to Luther. There were loyal ones on Caliban that didn't sided with Luther and painted armour green and fighted with the Lion during the Fall of Caliban

 

So a injured DA that was in coma BEFORE Luther teachery should bè still in his bed After the Fall of Caliban too

 

If he was unlucky that warp took him too for the Unforgiven he Is a Fallen

Edited January 30, 2020 by Master Sheol

[UtariOnzo]

He was on Caliban during a rebellion, all the Dark Angels have is his word that he was in stasis. Mind probing by a Librarian might add to that, but it might also be interpreted he was mind wiped rather than in a coma (divining memories by psykers is often portrayed as an art rather than science)

 

Show me a Chapter that would routinely believe the word of a random person claiming innocence on a rebellious planet and I’ll show you many many more from almost all the loyalist lineages that’d kill/imprison/pass them on to another authority right from the get go

[Interrogator Stobz]

Too much Logic, Not Enough Hate.

[Master Sheol]

Too much Logic, Not Enough Hate

Hate is the greatest gift of the Emperor to humanity ;) Edited January 30, 2020 by Master Sheol

[jaxom]

   Dark Angels show up asking questions about a random space marine in black armour with their chapter badge helping out the Imperial Guard. The marine is like, "Hey, so I missed 10,000 years or so, what's up with the white armour?"

  The Deathwing are all, "Come with us to the fortress-monastery, the Interrogator-Chaplains want to talk with you."

  "Okay, I'll do that because I am so totally loyal," says the previously coma'ed marine.

   In the Rock, the marine in black armour is questioning the new torture chamber aesthetic, but doesn't mention anything because he is a taciturn, loyal Dark Angel. A marine in the more familiar black armour, but with a skull-faced helmet enters the chamber.

   "You were on Caliban in it's last days?" the skull-helmed figure asks.

   "I guess.... I was in a coma until recently, but the last thing I remember was returning to Caliban to help train novitiates."

   "Do you repent following Luther and betraying the Lion?"

   "What? I was in a coma, I didn't betray anyone. The Lion left Luther in charge."

    Some torture and mind-reading later....

   "I didn't mean to betray the Lion, it just kind of happened, and I totally repent. I love the Lion!" yells the unfortunately accidental traitor. The skull-helmed marine nods appreciatively and raises his oddly ornate power maul.

   "Your repentance is accepted and I will now give you absolution."

   The Librarian outside the cell hears a loud series of thuds followed by a squelching noise. The ritual knock of "let me out" rings from the inner side of the door. The Librarian opens the door and the Interrogator-Chaplain steps out. He yells down the hall to the two Deathwing Knights standing guard, "Yo, go tell Sapphon to crack open a clam! I'm getting me a black pearl!"

Edited January 30, 2020 by jaxom

[Master Sheol]

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable ;)

[Gederas]

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai ;)

[Skywrath]

 

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai

 

 

*sips morning coffee after intensive Deathwing training session*

*gets to the part where Asmodai is mentioned as a psychopath*

*nearly chokes on coffee and spits it out*

 

Interrogator Stobz, we got another one! 

 

Role-playing aside, he would still be considered a Fallen Angel, however I took a certain satisfaction in knowing that one of the Dark Angels that came out after 10,000 years gave enough of a argument to (Asmodai??) that made him question (albeit briefly) what really occurred back then. Really makes you wonder how the Angels of Absolution got over the whole "hunting fallen" phase. 

 

@Jaxon, you made my day with that post, thumbs up, good sir. For the Lion!

Edited January 30, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai

*sips morning coffee after intensive Deathwing training session*

*gets to the part where Asmodai is mentioned as a psychopath*

*nearly chokes on coffee and spits it out*

 

Interrogator Stobz, we got another one! 

 

Role-playing aside, he would still be considered a Fallen Angel, however I took a certain satisfaction in knowing that one of the Dark Angels that came out after 10,000 years gave enough of a argument to (Asmodai??) that made him question (albeit briefly) what really occurred back then. Really makes you wonder how the Angels of Absolution got over the whole "hunting fallen" phase. 

 

@Jaxon, you made my day with that post, thumbs up, good sir. For the Lion!

Oh come on, everyone who plays Dark Angels knows Asmodai is a legitimate psychopath. There's a reason why, despite being the oldest Interrogator-Chaplain, he's not the Reclusiarch, and the level-headed Sapphon is . (actually, I think that's actually the canon reason he's not Reclusiarch, because EVERYONE THINKS HE'S INSANE)

 

Also, I like how you take offense to Asmodai being called a psychopath and NOT the preceding "borderline heretic" comment :lol:

 

Hell, with some of the fluff that's still canon about Asmodai, the stuff he's done would have gotten any other Chapter censured and him branded Excommunicae Traitoris, like his little "Orbital Bombardment of a city because a Fallen MIGHT be in it" stunt.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Gederas

[Skywrath]

 

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai

*sips morning coffee after intensive Deathwing training session*

*gets to the part where Asmodai is mentioned as a psychopath*

*nearly chokes on coffee and spits it out*

 

Interrogator Stobz, we got another one! 

 

Role-playing aside, he would still be considered a Fallen Angel, however I took a certain satisfaction in knowing that one of the Dark Angels that came out after 10,000 years gave enough of a argument to (Asmodai??) that made him question (albeit briefly) what really occurred back then. Really makes you wonder how the Angels of Absolution got over the whole "hunting fallen" phase. 

 

@Jaxon, you made my day with that post, thumbs up, good sir. For the Lion!

Oh come on, everyone who plays Dark Angels knows Asmodai is a legitimate psychopath. There's a reason why, despite being the oldest Interrogator-Chaplain, he's not the Reclusiarch, and the level-headed Sapphon is . (actually, I think that's actually the canon reason he's not Reclusiarch, because EVERYONE THINKS HE'S INSANE)

 

Hell, with some of the fluff that's still canon about Asmodai, the stuff he's done would have gotten any other Chapter censured and him branded Excommunicae Traitoris, like his little "Orbital Bombardment of a city because a Fallen MIGHT be in it" stunt.

 

 

I know, was just jesting. I have a suspicion that he is not excommunicate traitoris for two reasons. 

 

First (probably most obvious reason) DA as a general rule are a premier, "take no from the inquisition" chapter. Not outright like the Space Wolves (*polishes power sword after saying that*), but nod politely THEN do their own thing behind the inquisitions back. While the inquisition would love to get their hands on DA classified information, they can't. Meaning Asmodai is safe, as long as that information stays under lock and key, (probably locked tighter than Luther's prison ++REDACTED++).

 

Second reason - Azrael is a bit "scared" of him, as unlikely at that sounds. Not scared as in "screaming running down the hill scared", more like "damn bro, you alright" kind of scared.  

Edited January 30, 2020 by Skywrath

[Fierce Bear]

 

 

 

 

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai

*sips morning coffee after intensive Deathwing training session*

*gets to the part where Asmodai is mentioned as a psychopath*

*nearly chokes on coffee and spits it out*

 

Interrogator Stobz, we got another one!

 

Role-playing aside, he would still be considered a Fallen Angel, however I took a certain satisfaction in knowing that one of the Dark Angels that came out after 10,000 years gave enough of a argument to (Asmodai??) that made him question (albeit briefly) what really occurred back then. Really makes you wonder how the Angels of Absolution got over the whole "hunting fallen" phase.

 

@Jaxon, you made my day with that post, thumbs up, good sir. For the Lion!

Oh come on, everyone who plays Dark Angels knows Asmodai is a legitimate psychopath. There's a reason why, despite being the oldest Interrogator-Chaplain, he's not the Reclusiarch, and the level-headed Sapphon is . (actually, I think that's actually the canon reason he's not Reclusiarch, because EVERYONE THINKS HE'S INSANE)

 

Also, I like how you take offense to Asmodai being called a psychopath and NOT the preceding "borderline heretic" comment :lol:

 

Hell, with some of the fluff that's still canon about Asmodai, the stuff he's done would have gotten any other Chapter censured and him branded Excommunicae Traitoris, like his little "Orbital Bombardment of a city because a Fallen MIGHT be in it" stunt.

 

It's not an orbital bombardment if you use drop pods though is it Brother?

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice read jaxom but if a Fallen repents he gets a swift and honorable death and being brutally clubbed to death is not swift or honorable

You forget, this is Fandom!Dark Angels. Where they're a bunch of borderline Heretic psychopaths like Asmodai

*sips morning coffee after intensive Deathwing training session*

*gets to the part where Asmodai is mentioned as a psychopath*

*nearly chokes on coffee and spits it out*

 

Interrogator Stobz, we got another one!

 

Role-playing aside, he would still be considered a Fallen Angel, however I took a certain satisfaction in knowing that one of the Dark Angels that came out after 10,000 years gave enough of a argument to (Asmodai??) that made him question (albeit briefly) what really occurred back then. Really makes you wonder how the Angels of Absolution got over the whole "hunting fallen" phase.

 

@Jaxon, you made my day with that post, thumbs up, good sir. For the Lion!

Oh come on, everyone who plays Dark Angels knows Asmodai is a legitimate psychopath. There's a reason why, despite being the oldest Interrogator-Chaplain, he's not the Reclusiarch, and the level-headed Sapphon is . (actually, I think that's actually the canon reason he's not Reclusiarch, because EVERYONE THINKS HE'S INSANE)

 

Hell, with some of the fluff that's still canon about Asmodai, the stuff he's done would have gotten any other Chapter censured and him branded Excommunicae Traitoris, like his little "Orbital Bombardment of a city because a Fallen MIGHT be in it" stunt.

I know, was just jesting. I have a suspicion that he is not excommunicate traitoris for two reasons.

 

First (probably most obvious reason) DA as a general rule are a premier, "take no from the inquisition" chapter. Not outright like the Space Wolves (*polishes power sword after saying that*), but nod politely THEN do their own thing behind the inquisitions back. While the inquisition would love to get their hands on DA classified information, they can't. Meaning Asmodai is safe, as long as that information stays under lock and key, (probably locked tighter than Luther's prison ++REDACTED++).

 

Second reason - Azrael is a bit "scared" of him, as unlikely at that sounds. Not scared as in "screaming running down the hill scared", more like "damn bro, you alright" kind of scared.

Aside from the Grey Knights, Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Death Guard Corpse Emperor and Custodes who else knows the Unforgiven's secrets? Why hasn't anyone, especially Chaos, used that information against them?

 

That Inquisitor from the Months of Shame could have ordered the Grey Knights to blackmail the DA into attacking the SW. Though that might have invited all the other First Founding Chapters onto the SW's side. Then again I am a Chaos fan and an EXTRA BLOODY Months of Shame would have made the 13th Black Crusade much easier

 

The war against Chaos has two weapons. Truths and lies, both harm the target and the user

[Chaplain Lucifer]

We are getting off topic here, but I will indulge you... I think you base your assumptionS wrong.

 

First of all, no one will believe a Chaos Marine, so they can shout in the wind all they want that no one will listen. They are traitors and traitors do tend to lie.

Plus, Chaos Marines are highly selfish, they don't do slumber parties and share secrets between unless they have much to gain.

So let's cross Chaos from the list of people that can use DA secret to destroy them... At best they can gain a small advantage while scheming.

 

Custodes are the Emperors guardians and they don't mingle in mundane affairs, So if DA secret is known by them it will be used to get some leverage at some point.

 

Grey Knights are not bossed by the Inquisition and especially they won't be bossed to attack another Marine chapter based on hearsay since, again, the DA secret is not known by the whole GK Chapter. Like before, secrets like this are used for leverage.

 

That leaves the Inquisition, an organization with also highly selfish individuals much like Chaos Marines, seeking power to themselves. DA secret is not known by the whole Inquisition, only by a few and usually the ones that pursue some investigation find themselves in dark alleys. DA are millenia old, they also have dirt in the Inquisition and can also play them as pawns.

 

So you see, just because the secret is known by some people doesn't mean they can or they will do something with that information...

Actually DA secret is pretty worthless, since DA are working their butts to cover something that happened to every legion in the Heresy albeit at a different scale. White Scars fought against themselves either and no one even bats an eyelash!

Edited January 31, 2020 by Chaplain Lucifer

[Skywrath]

We are getting off topic here, but I will indulge you... I think you base your assumptionS wrong.

 

First of all, no one will believe a Chaos Marine, so they can shout in the wind all they want that no one will listen. They are traitors and traitors do tend to lie.

Plus, Chaos Marines are highly selfish, they don't do slumber parties and share secrets between unless they have much to gain.

So let's cross Chaos from the list of people that can use DA secret to destroy them... At best they can gain a small advantage while scheming.

 

Custodes are the Emperors guardians and they don't mingle in mundane affairs, So if DA secret is known by them it will be used to get some leverage at some point.

 

Grey Knights are not bossed by the Inquisition and especially they won't be bossed to attack another Marine chapter based on hearsay since, again, the DA secret is not known by the whole GK Chapter. Like before, secrets like this are used for leverage.

 

That leaves the Inquisition, an organization with also highly selfish individuals much like Chaos Marines, seeking power to themselves. DA secret is not known by the whole Inquisition, only by a few and usually the ones that pursue some investigation find themselves in dark alleys. DA are millenia old, they also have dirt in the Inquisition and can also play them as pawns.

 

So you see, just because the secret is known by some people doesn't mean they can or they will do something with that information...

Actually DA secret is pretty worthless, since DA are working their butts to cover something that happened to every legion in the Heresy albeit at a different scale. White Scars fought against themselves either and no one even bats an eyelash!

 

I think there are a few inconsistencies with your arguments. Most of these are from a hypothetical perspective, however reinforced with current trends/facts.

 

First off all, while the Custodes don't mingle in mundane affairs, lately they have been the guardians of Gulliman (try saying that five times faster). Seeing how it's Gulliman's job to pretty much keep an eye on every military units under his disposal, that naturally also includes the Dark Angels. While hypothetical, us Dark Angels are paranoid about Gulliman finding out our big secret. If Gulliman put 2 and 2 together, and I think he will, then we might get a religious ++censored++ from the Custodes, seeing how there might be a good chance of us being called traitors. That last point is especially true, when you take into account that Gulliman is well aware of our secret tendencies and our primarch's personality. 

 

Secondly, Grey Knights are a semi-autonomous chapter that has strong ties to the inquisition. And I think you may be slightly wrong in assuming they aren't bossed around by said inquisition (see months of shame, armaggedon). Malcador specifically designed them to be pretty much bros to said structure of the Ordo Malleus.  If we were to overlook that slight fact, then there is also the fact that Kaldor explicitly knows our secret. In a 1v1 scenario, despite how powerful the Dark Angels are, I don't like our chances against the GK. Emperor's geneseed > Primarch's geneseed anyday, for comparison. So yes, secrets for leverage in this scenario. 

 

I also believe that the DA secret is still on a league different from the other legions. Because of the Fallen's tendencies to appear through time and space, it means the DA have to be on their guard constantly, without even being aware of when they will resurface (perhaps they should consult the GK prognosticar for that). So their secret isn't something that's in their past, the secret is their past, present and future, hence their obsession with killing fallen. 

 

Third, can you provide an example of where some branch of the Inquisition knows about the DA secret? Not trying to sound snide, but genuinely curious. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Chaplain Lucifer]

@Knight-Master Skywrath.

That's precisely it. Other than the 3rd Ed. Codex that refers to a Inquisitor Czevak that was investigating the DA because he was suspicious, there isn't any black on white evidence (that I can remember) that any Inquisitor actually knows the whole truth.

 

As for Custodes, they are bodyguards not attack dogs and Guilliman pretty much should know what happened or at least have a faint idea but he either doesn't care or doesn't want to do the effort to annihilate what is basically a Legion sized force that fights on his side.

 

Grey Knights can be more powerful one on one but they number 1000 and DA number a lot more than that, so they won't be listening to any Inquisitor and diving headlong into a war they can't win and they probably don't care enough about the DA secret to act upon it. Plus we probably also have dirt on the GK since they also have some traitor DNA... Mwahahha

[jaxom]

@Knight-Master Skywrath.

That's precisely it. Other than the 3rd Ed. Codex that refers to a Inquisitor Czevak that was investigating the DA because he was suspicious, there isn't any black on white evidence (that I can remember) that any Inquisitor actually knows the whole truth.

 

As for Custodes, they are bodyguards not attack dogs and Guilliman pretty much should know what happened or at least have a faint idea but he either doesn't care or doesn't want to do the effort to annihilate what is basically a Legion sized force that fights on his side.

 

Grey Knights can be more powerful one on one but they number 1000 and DA number a lot more than that, so they won't be listening to any Inquisitor and diving headlong into a war they can't win and they probably don't care enough about the DA secret to act upon it. Plus we probably also have dirt on the GK since they also have some traitor DNA... Mwahahha

Yeah, it was super convenient that Inquisitor Grim disappeared after he was last seen in the same sector of space as the Rock .

 

The Custodes consider all marines potential traitors and are more focused on current action rather than past action. I don't think they'd care if the Dark Angels had a schism so long as they continue to function within the general role of the astartes within the larger adeptus system.

 

This has been bugging me for a bit. Does anyone have a source for the Emperor's Gift being anything other than ridiculously pure gene-seed from an unknown source? Does the Emperor actually have physiology that would support the development of astartes organs? Wasn't part of the primarch project developing those organs? And then the astartes project was figuring out how to artificially culture some of them for implantation into people?

[bigtrouble]

I think you’re right that the Custodes, Guilliman, even the High Lords would not much care to expose the secret of the Fallen, even acknowledge it really. It’s kind of a private shame for the DA. A traitor is a traitor, and if the DA are hunting them down, then good. Who might care is the Inquisition, because it’s their business to be nosy, but to declare a half dozen or more chapters as Heretic when they are clearly not will just make Renegades of them and would be a terrible strategy for handling the Fallen issue. It’s a side show in the greater battle against Chaos, and surely Gman would know or appreciate that.

 

Obviously the coming confrontation between Luther and the Lion is going to blow the whole thing wide open, but I think that will still be within the context of the greater struggle, and will not be a central plot point in the Imperium