PA: Ritual of the Damned Tactics

[TheMostGood]

Hey guys, now that the book has dropped and most people have it in hand, I'd like to open a thread to discuss combos and tactics.  This is a way to consolidate ideas and start a fresh thread. 

 

I'll go first. 

 

On page 67 of the book, it gives us exact definitions as to what Nemesis, Psi, and Bolt means. I really like this approach to rules writing because it helps to remove ambiguity with the rules. 

 

One thing that caught my eye was what else is considered to be Nemesis. Every character or relic melee weapon is considered to be Nemesis. 

 

This included the Blade of Antwyr - Crowe's weapon. So anything that benefits Nemesis weapons now benefit his weapon. 

 

So then I started to look and see what I could combo with this. 

 

The main thing that stuck out to me was the Chaplin's Invocation of Focus ability, which gives all Nemesis weapons -1 AP. This include's Crowe's weapon. As far as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong), the Chaplain "Casts" or says the prayer and the unit gets the buff per the rules laid out for that particular litany. I am not entirely sure if the unit that has the effect must also be within 6" of the Chaplain for Invocation of Focus during the fight phase for it to take effect. Maybe someone can clear that up for me. 

 

Either way, the sought after result is this:

 

Crowe has 5 attacks with 6 attacks on the charge (Shock Assault). 

 

If he is your Warlord, he will have Hammer of Righteousness and if you use your Chaplain to give him Hammerhand, he'll have +2 to wound in melee with the combined buffs. 

 

You get to reroll failed to hit and wound rolls and for every wound you make you immediately make another attack (the additional attacks do not cause another attack). This means you have a pretty dang good chance of tossing out 12 attacks in a single round of combat. 

 

So you'll be swinging with S4 (+2 to wound) AP-1 D1 attacks, which isn't too shabby. All for 187pts. 

 

Then you give him Inner Fire as his psychic power. He knows one psychic power and can cast two, so his other ability would be his Purifying Flame ability. You see where I am going with this? 

 

It seems he would have the capability to decimate hordes with efficiency, but also seriously threaten tougher models like elites, vehicles, and other characters (with psychic power). 

 

The major drawback, of course, is how to get him to the fight. We have a couple of options now, especially with the Edict Imperator psychic ability, to get something like a Landraider or Storm Raven up close. It seems like a fun and powerful combo that I'd like to try none-the-less. 

What do you guys think?

 

Have you noticed or seen any cool combos that you think would be good? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Corvus Fortis]

This is fun, but absolutely impractical. You have to sacrifice litany, warlord trait and hammerhand just for crowe. TBH, I cannot even see this used even in friendly fun games unless you want to try it for the sake of trying.

 

But if you want similar combos, try BroChamp with new sword relic. He throws 4 attack, S5 AP-3 3 basic. +1 for charge, +1 for banner nearby. WIth Hammer of Righteousness, Hammerhand and attack stance he wounds a knight on 2+ and can reroll 1's for Tide of Fury. And he can absolutely sustain himself  for the most part. He also can fight twice and has very slight chance at killling knight (10 attacks, 2+ to-hit, 2+ to-wound, reroll 1's if a GM/draigo nearby and Tide of Fury is on). And this is just 92 pts. If you chant litany for -1 AP on him, Knight won't have saves at all, unless he has a relic.

 

The main thing that stuck out to me was the Chaplin's Invocation of Focus ability, which gives all Nemesis weapons -1 AP. This include's Crowe's weapon. As far as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong), the Chaplain "Casts" or says the prayer and the unit gets the buff per the rules laid out for that particular litany. I am not entirely sure if the unit that has the effect must also be within 6" of the Chaplain for Invocation of Focus during the fight phase for it to take effect. Maybe someone can clear that up for me.

 

 

 

Depends on wording, but almost all his litanies works this way - you chose a single unit within 6 of him (also remember that you chant at the start of battleround, not your turn!) and effects of litany is in effect for this unit until the next battleround, regardless of their situation. So you can chant it on unit of 10 interceptors, jump with them in movement phase and use psybolt ammo for 5 -2 1 shots (or 6 -2 2 with ToC).

 

About other tricks - don't forget litany of faith. It will defend you against psychic heavy armies, from mortal wounds from asssassins, from mortal wounds from perils and from mortal wounds from Inner Fire.

[TheMostGood]

Why would it be impractical? Saying that you're "sacrificing" something for something else in the GK army doesn't really fit how the army functions since buffs and stratagems are used on a as needed basis. You don't always cast the same spells / stratagems on the same unit every turn. It depends on the situation. Tools in the bag of tricks. 

 

 

As for your BroChamp example, you would be "sacrificing" a relic slot, Draigo for re-rolls, banner, and 3CP to deal that kind of damage. He would also have the added drawback of not having Purifying Flame, nor being able to cast two psychic powers in the psychic phase. Crowe would get D6 Smite + Inner Fire. That's way more investment. 

 

BroChamp would also have trouble dealing with horde enemies in comparison to Crowe not having that problem. This means that Crowe can't be tarpit by hordes, but is also still a major threat to characters because of the number of attacks and mortal wounds in the psychic phase. 

 

Add also to the fact that Crowe could use the same stratagem you are talking about, Honour the Chapter, and dish out another possible 12 attacks (a total possible of 24). Not including how extra crazy it could possibly get if Augrium Scrolls is in play. I'm actually not sure exactly how that would play off of his Master Swordsman ability. 

 

 

The main point I was going for here, is to explore how useful Crowe could be in this situation. This looks to be incredibly strong and more than just an impracticality. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by TheMostGood

[Corvus Fortis]

Why would it be impractical?

 

 

Let's put mathhammer aside for a moment. You took Crowe, gave him warlord trait, put Chaplain nearby. How are you going to bring him where he is needed? Stormraven? Will probably be removed turn 1, turn 2 at best. Land Raider? Could hold a bit more, but slower too. Teleportarium? Then he will hit table turn 2 with 30% chance to charge something and something that is not that important. So you will have to put chaplain in resrves too and turn 3 he can chant a litany on Crowe, so Crowe can go and chop something. GoI? Even worse, since you have to invest in something to screen him from incoming fire or hide somewhere. I doubt this will make him to reach his target earlier than turn 3.

 

And no, he is absolutely not a greater threat to anything that have 2+ wounds. Against one wound models, yes, he outperforms most of our characters. If only hordes were ever a problem for GK.

 

Psychic powers doesn't mean much. Purifying flame is not better than RoB just because you won't reach anything before turn 2, period. More realistically turn 3 or even turn 4. Inner fire suffers from similar problem, but can be mitigated by Powerful Adept (unless it is FAQed, of course). And Crowe cannot use powerfull adept. Even if he is somehow reaches valuable targets and doesn't kill it in his combat phase, your opponent will simply fall back next turn and kill Crowe with something else. And your opponent just won't engage Crowe with something valuable that cannot kill it, of course.

 

Crowe can be useful in games vs low save hordes that want get close like orks and nids, but he is not necessary and there is still no reason to invest in him that much.  I liked Crowe before PA, because we didn't have tide of escalation, and he was cheap. I also used Stormraven because my meta didn't have much to kill it turn 1,  and turn 2 he already did everything I wanted him to. So I had an ok way to deliver Crowe. But I liked him exactly because I didn't invest much and he could suprise my opponent sometimes.

 

BroCap build I suggested is a fun and impractical too. But at least it is self-sustaining. Just give it hammerhand and relic and he will take down most multi-wound targets with ease. He doesn't need neither warlord trait nor litany nor stratagems.

 

I hardly imagine a situation in wich Crowe can benifit from litanies than any other unit. And I hardly imagine a match-up where you want him to be warlord instead of taking first to the fray, because it has so much more strategic value (just not for the blunt charges from deepstrike. You barely will need it before turn 3 too, but at least most part of your army will benifit from it).

 

Can Crowe and BroChamp put some hurt if you invest in them? Of course! Is it worth it? I don't think so.

 

TL;DR: Why chant Invocation on projection on Crowe when you can chant it on any unit with psi-weapons, for example?

[TheMostGood]

 

 

TL;DR: Why chant Invocation on projection on Crowe when you can chant it on any unit with psi-weapons, for example?

 

 

Like I said earlier and in other threads, it would be a tool in the bag of tricks. 

 

You seem to be under the impression that I am suggesting this is the only way to run it. That it's the new best thing and no other option be considered.

 

The idea is that you throw Crowe into your army because he's only EIGHTY POINTS (less than a Strike Squad) and requires no further set up to make this work. You're not bringing in anything you're not already taking. You don't have to give him relics or anything like this to make this work. Literally cast a single litany.

 

You don't HAVE to give him the Warlord trait, that was just an explanation to show his maximized capabilities. Much like how I point out that he has a POSSIBLE 12 attacks maximum, he won't get that every fight of course. 

 

Much like with other things in the book, you want to be flexible. Not every unit is going to get all the buffs / receive one buff every turn or every game. 

 

For example, you could have a Paladin Squad and a Librarian in deepstrike reserves and it would be valid to consider which one to use Dynamic Insertion on depending on your need at the time. Do you drop the paladins so that you can pressure / shoot up a unit or do you drop a Librarian and use the Smite / Inner Fire combo (with stratagems) to blow up a character you need removed. Saying that one or the other is invalid because it "steals" from the other unit isn't a strong argument because that's not how this army works. 

[Corvus Fortis]

Like I said earlier and in other threads, it would be a tool in the bag of tricks.

 

 

Yet I'm still struggle to get, how is this particular tool could be used outside of a couple very specific situations, and none of other more versatile tools couldn't.

 

You seem to be under the impression that I am suggesting this is the only way to run it. That it's the new best thing and no other option be considered.

 

 

Not at all. The discussion was about worthiness of investment in Crowe. It is not about if Crowe is best but about if he is even good.

 

The idea is that you throw Crowe into your army because he's only EIGHTY POINTS (less than a Strike Squad) and requires no further set up to make this work.

 

 

But if you are building a competitive list, why not just take another apothecary? He costs 4 points less, doesn't have storm bolter, but throws a smite at 12" or 24" with BroCap, has nice force weapon and I can give him a relic, if needed. Most importantly, he can deep strike, so I don't need to think how I should bring him where he needs to be. You can also take more modes to other units or more wargear for this points. There are really a lot of ways to spend these points besides Crowe.

 

Literally cast a single litany.

 

 

I think, that casting a single litany when you only have a single litany per turn is a bit too much. I cannot imagine a situation, where I cast Invocation of Focus on Crowe and I am not already either have the upper hand or not completely screwed. Even 5-man strike squad will get more from it, if it can get into close combat.

 

You don't HAVE to give him the Warlord trait

 

 

You stated about WT in the original post, that's why I takled about WT later.

 

that was just an explanation to show his maximized capabilities

 

 

I agree, that talking about maximized capabilities is fun. But if we want to discuss tactics, I think, it is better to consider something that you will get on average, than what can be used when stars align. GMNDK, for example, can deal potentially 42 damage in a single activation, but this doesn't suddenly make him an effective titan-killer.

 

 

Much like with other things in the book, you want to be flexible.

 

 

The thing that Crowe does the best can be handled better by 5 man strike squad the turn they hit the table. And they won't require neither warlord traits, nor litanies, nor psychic powers, nothing. A bit of rerolls would be helpful, but I'm bringing them anyway. That's why I don't get, why it makes my army more flexible.

 

Not every unit is going to get all the buffs / receive one buff every turn or every game.

 

 

I agree, not everything can get buffs every turn. But this is the very point. You cannot just throw buffs here and there. You have to distribute them carefully. If you are spending them on a model with 6-9 attacks S4 AP0 D1, rerollong hits and wounds, you really should have reason for it. To Crowe. Not to you strike squads, not paladins, not purgators, not Draigo, Bro-Cap. Apothecary or other more beefy heroes.

 

For example, you could have a Paladin Squad and a Librarian in deepstrike reserves and it would be valid to consider which one to use Dynamic Insertion on depending on your need at the time.

 

 

I got the analogy, but I'm afraid, this case is a little different. Both paladins and librarian in this case fulfill a special role, which cannot be fulfilled by other  units in your army.

 

I once again want to make my point clear: taking Crowe and investing in him because you like the model and want to make him work is ok. It is possible. Throwing a litany on a Crowe and throwing a Hammerhand on him, because you don't have better targets is ok. The situation is very rare, but I admit, that it is possible. Making it for fun because of it is fun combinations is absolutely ok.

 

But taking Crowe and investing at him doesn't seem to me as the best way to get 100% out of Grey Knights army. There are units with about the same point costs that do things better. Investing in him, even if it is just a single litany, is like hindering yourself, IMO.

[Captain Coolpants]

For fun games, I absolutely agree Crowe can be exactly that, fun. The model is cool too. And its always fun to take him and a bunch of purifiers every now and again just because. With inner fire as well, would be fun to watch him go super saiyan and either blow up or blow something up. Or both! After a d6 smite.

 

But if I want consistency and a better chance to win with maximum efficiency and self sustainability, I only take characters that will act as army multipliers. Characters that have an actual constant use, not just because they can be cool IF I do this this and this. Because its weird taking a character that needs another character to be considered usable. e.g taking a chappie to give Crowe litanies for better ap.

 

As what's already been said, a squad of 5 strikes is just better, the same amount of wounds, but 5 times more shots, twice as many attacks with double better AP with falchions, that benefit considerably more from being buffed by a power, aura or litany. And can deepstrike with no additional resources making them better for objectives too. Also means that their smite (which will probably be damage 2) will be in use and more effective sooner in the game. So if started on the board next to a brother captain, that's probably 3 turns of guaranteed 5 or 6 damage you've caused with smite, where as crowe will have to roll to POTENTIALLY get 6 damage by minimum turn 2 or 3 also.

 

I mean if you're going through this effort to take crowe you're probably better off just taking 5 purifiers if you really want the d6 smite.

 

 

Remember, that you take what you want in a friendly game, who cares about min maxing or whatever. Well heck, you can take what you want inna competitive game too!

But this is a discussion about Crowe being viable in order to win. And I believe that facts are, that you're better off with something else.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Waking Dreamer]

Hey guys, now that the book has dropped and most people have it in hand, I'd like to open a thread to discuss combos and tactics.  This is a way to consolidate ideas and start a fresh thread. 

 

Have you noticed or seen any cool combos that you think would be good? 

 

How about 80 psybolt ammunition shots in one turn?

 

Requirements: 4CP, 2x 10-man storm bolter units.

 

1. During the movement phase, shunt say one 10-man Interceptor unit within 12" of an enemy unit. 

2. During the psychic phase GoI another 10-man storm bolter unit within 12" of an enemy unit.

3. In the same psychic phase cast Edict Imperator on one of the units, and before you shoot use the psybolt strat to get 40 S5 AP-1 D1 shots.

4. During the following shooting phase have the other 10-man unit shoot and use the psybolt strat again to get the remaining 40 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, before your opponent can do anything about it!

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

 

Hey guys, now that the book has dropped and most people have it in hand, I'd like to open a thread to discuss combos and tactics.  This is a way to consolidate ideas and start a fresh thread. 

 

Have you noticed or seen any cool combos that you think would be good? 

 

How about 80 psybolt ammunition shots in one turn?

 

Requirements: 4CP, 2x 10-man storm bolter units.

 

1. During the movement phase, shunt say one 10-man Interceptor unit within 12" of an enemy unit. 

2. During the psychic phase GoI another 10-man storm bolter unit within 12" of an enemy unit.

3. In the same psychic phase cast Edict Imperator on one of the units, and before you shoot use the psybolt strat to get 40 S5 AP-1 D1 shots.

4. During the following shooting phase have the other 10-man unit shoot and use the psybolt strat again to get the remaining 40 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, before your opponent can do anything about it!

 

And you can even do it with 2 Interceptor units + 1 GoI'ing character :P

[Corvus Fortis]

Requirements: 4CP, 2x 10-man storm bolter units.

 

 

Yes, noticed that too. Looks very strong.The only problem is that you'll need a character withtin 12" to cast EI. You will probably have to spend a bit of CP for Powerful Adept and Steady Advance to reach target and still cast the power. So yes, 2x10 interceptors ang GoI for a character to cast edict seems the best way.

If you want to save CP, you can use 2x10 man units with bolter going out of reserves alongside characters. This would be extra easy to pull off. This also works with Psychic onslaught.