Couple of lore questions I’ve been thinking over recently

[Axineton]

So I’ve just recently been pondering over these two questions and admittedly not looked around anywhere as I’ve been busy with work and life this week.

 

Q1. How or why did humanity go back to Latin as a language after it had been dead for thousands of years? 
 

Q2. What race did humanity / imperium encounter first on their space travels?

 

 

[Vogon]

No idea on question 1 but I vaguely remember from somewhere that Orks were the first alien race humanity encountered.

 

I remember reading that upon first meeting both sides regarded each other, neither liked what they saw and we’ve been at war ever since.

 

I’m not sure where I got that from though.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

[Tyriks]

They didn't go back to Latin, they use High Gothic (which authors show us readers as being pseudo Latin, but I don't think in universe it is supposed to be Latin) and Low Gothic which they show us as common use English, which again no one in universe is actually speaking English. It's just easier to use Latin as a base than actually invent a new language.

[Marshal Loss]

With language in 40k, we need to distinguish between "high" and "low" Gothic. High Gothic is the language of ritual and of the elites, and is most often represented in our fiction as pseudo-Latin. Low Gothic is represented in our fiction as English, but in reality is a complex bastardized hybrid of innumerable other languages. What we read on the pages isn't actually a wholly accurate depiction of what would be spoken and written in-universe for obvious reasons.

 

So in summary, High Gothic = pseudo Latin, Low Gothic = English.

 

Why did GW pick Latin as the real-world model for High Gothic? It's about how 40k is constructed. The setting draws upon innumerable different eras from history but some of the most prominent tropes are drawn from Catholicism (e.g. Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition) and the idea of a "failing empire", e.g. the Western Roman Empire. A glorious past contrasted with a dark and terrible present. Just as Latin was a root language for English, so too is High Gothic a root language for the degenerate Low Gothic, drawing upon the connotations of culture, grandeur and splendour associated with Latin and Rome by many today. It's all about drawing a contrast between the Imperium that is and the Imperium that was/should have been. Latin is the best choice for this over, say, the other great classical language - Greek - because of Rome's longevity, the impact the fall of Rome had on the western psyche (whereas Hellenic culture was able to exert cultural power for many centuries after the demise of the Hellenistic kingdoms), and the ongoing use of Latin in academic/legal/government circles as a language impenetrable to the masses on contemporary life.

 

As for the second question, to the best of my knowledge there is no record of mankind's first contact with aliens. It would have occurred far before any of the events covered by 40k/30k lore & prehistory.

[Axineton]

Marshal loss that is a great answer thanks mate very informed. 

[toaae]

Q1 has been answered well, so for Q2, I believe the answer is Orks. It was at least in Rogue Trader 30+ years ago, and I don't know of anything that directly contradicts that (even if a lot of RT is outdated).

[jaxom]

It’s been forever, but there’s a fact nugget in my brain. I no longer remember if it came from an interview in an old White Dwarf or a seminar or what. Gothic actually most closely resembles a Polynesian language (and the rest is translation convention as previously said).

[Indefragable]

Marshal Rohr knocked this one out of the park, so the only thing I’ll add is the casual reminder that Wh40k started out far more simplistically than its modern form would suggest. It was basically “Da Crusades....in Spaaaaaaaaace!” (For the backgroud as opposed to the Space Cops thing the first Imperial Marines were pitched as) as the elevator pitch and the rest fell in from there. So stuff got Church-y and Latin-y right from the start and then at some point you’re past the point of retconning so you stick with it and find justification for it.

 

I like the idea that Orkz were the first aliens encountered since it adds a whole other element to the term “green skins” said with a snarl...that humanity had been pushing and shoving with this other species for like 20,000 years and is a constant that has survived even Old Night. The threat of Orkz has been so indelibly linked to traveling the galaxy that it’s imprinted on the human psyche like being lost in the dark woods at night or swimming in open water. Thus it further sets up how and why the Emperor could come about as he did and something optimistic like Star Trek’s Federation could never thrive.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Indefragable

[Marshal Rohr]

That was the much more educated and well-traveled Marshal Loss. I defer to his expertise in these matters ;) . Edited February 2, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[grailkeeper]

 

 

Q2. What race did humanity / imperium encounter first on their space travels?

 

 

I read somewhere that the first Aliens humanity encountered were Orks and this may have shaped some of the Imperiums world view. Think it might have been the 3rd ed Ork codex or something published around the time it was current. My own head-canon is that there is an in universe tv show about humanities first contact with aliens, its called the Axe-Files.

Edited February 2, 2020 by grailkeeper

[apologist]

Question 1 has been answered with aplomb (thanks Marshal Loss), so I'll simply pop up this relevant quote from Rogue Trader:

 

 

 

The common language of the lmperium is represented in the book by English, proper names have been rendered in an anglicised form. Many of the titles of ancient institutions and organisations are presented as Latinised English (such as the Adeptus Terra). This represents an older tongue, itself a development of Twentieth century languages, not necessarily Latin as such.

 

This older tongue is known in the lmperium as 'Tech', being a version of the language in which technical manuals and ancient works are recorded. This language developed during the Dark Age of Technology (in fact a golden age from the point of view of science – it is only dark in the minds of the men who now fear it). It derives from the common tongue of the time, an assimilation of English, European and Pacific which developed over many centuries in the American/Pacific region. This was the universal medium of written record until the Age of Strife, and was spoken as a first language by many and as a second language by almost everyone. Its idioms and vocabulary now appear archaic and mystic, many of its words have acquired religious significance over the years. It is the language of the techpriests and of forbidden books.

 

The common tongue of the Age of the lmperium is spoken as a first language on almost all civilised planets, and is accepted as a second language on planets within Imperial control with the exception of some medieval and feral worlds. This is a bastardised version of Tech, combining additional elements from several of the oriental languages of Ancient Earth. Over the millennia it has changed greatly, and now bears almost no resemblance to the tongues from which it derived. Although a common language, it varies from planet to planet (and even from region to region) so that it is not always easy for two characters to communicate if they are from different worlds.

 

Medieval, feral and worlds suffering from long periods of isolation may have several indigenous languages derived either from Tech or one of the ancient Earth tongues. It was quite common during the Dark Age of Technology for worlds to be settled by small communities of 'isolationists'. These eccentric groups were often self-financed and their journeys unrecorded, many were of racial minorities attempting to recreate a sense of national identity away from the overpopulated Earth. Some of these groups made a deliberate attempt to revive long dead or moribund languages, perceiving them as a source of national identity and communal strength.

 

 

... as to question 2:

 

Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader rulebook has this to say on things (p185): 

 

 

'The savage race known as Orks, and their underling slave-race of gretchins, were probably the first extra-terrestrial civilisation encountered by humanity. That was a long time ago (quite when, nobody remembers). People say on their first meeting Man and Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't much care for what they saw, and began the long interstellar conflict that has gone on ever since.'

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by apologist

[Axineton]

Lots of great answers here for both questions so many thanks people.

[Irbis]

Just as Latin was a root language for English, so too is High Gothic a root language for the degenerate Low Gothic, drawing upon the connotations of culture, grandeur and splendour associated with Latin and Rome by many today. It's all about drawing a contrast between the Imperium that is and the Imperium that was/should have been. Latin is the best choice for this over, say, the other great classical language - Greek - because of Rome's longevity, the impact the fall of Rome had on the western psyche (whereas Hellenic culture was able to exert cultural power for many centuries after the demise of the Hellenistic kingdoms), and the ongoing use of Latin in academic/legal/government circles as a language impenetrable to the masses on contemporary life.

 

Um, Latin is Romance language. English is Germanic, two different language families that have little in common. Root language for both would be if anything Indo-European, and if English has something to do with Latin, it's because of English nobles who fancied themselves to be (much more civilized at the time) French, importing tons of words into the English wholesale causing endless headaches for the future speakers of both.

 

And it's kind of funny you speak of Latin's longevity because it was pretty much dead as a doornail by the fifth century, while Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantium, speaking almost exclusively Greek) went on to last 1000 more years, except they influenced wrong bits of Europe so most people today tend to forget that.

 

Though, I'd say High Gothic uses Latin for pretty much the above reason, it's the (dead) language of Holy Terra, while modern Imperium speaks Low Gothic that has very little in common with it, besides a handful of loanwords (so pretty much like Latin/English relationship today). And I'd be careful with citing Rogue Trader, a lot of it slipped out of canon decades ago.

[Gederas]

Just as Latin was a root language for English, so too is High Gothic a root language for the degenerate Low Gothic, drawing upon the connotations of culture, grandeur and splendour associated with Latin and Rome by many today. It's all about drawing a contrast between the Imperium that is and the Imperium that was/should have been. Latin is the best choice for this over, say, the other great classical language - Greek - because of Rome's longevity, the impact the fall of Rome had on the western psyche (whereas Hellenic culture was able to exert cultural power for many centuries after the demise of the Hellenistic kingdoms), and the ongoing use of Latin in academic/legal/government circles as a language impenetrable to the masses on contemporary life.

Um, Latin is Romance language. English is Germanic, two different language families that have little in common. Root language for both would be if anything Indo-European, and if English has something to do with Latin, it's because of English nobles who fancied themselves to be (much more civilized at the time) French, importing tons of words into the English wholesale causing endless headaches for the future speakers of both.

 

And it's kind of funny you speak of Latin's longevity because it was pretty much dead as a doornail by the fifth century, while Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantium, speaking almost exclusively Greek) went on to last 1000 more years, except they influenced wrong bits of Europe so most people today tend to forget that.

 

Though, I'd say High Gothic uses Latin for pretty much the above reason, it's the (dead) language of Holy Terra, while modern Imperium speaks Low Gothic that has very little in common with it, besides a handful of loanwords (so pretty much like Latin/English relationship today). And I'd be careful with citing Rogue Trader, a lot of it slipped out of canon decades ago.

While a Germanic Language, there's a lot of Latin in English because English is a language that takes other languages into alleyways, knocks them out and rifles through their pockets for grammar rules. :lol:

[Marshal Loss]

 

Um, Latin is Romance language. English is Germanic, two different language families that have little in common. Root language for both would be if anything Indo-European, and if English has something to do with Latin, it's because of English nobles who fancied themselves to be (much more civilized at the time) French, importing tons of words into the English wholesale causing endless headaches for the future speakers of both.

 

And it's kind of funny you speak of Latin's longevity because it was pretty much dead as a doornail by the fifth century, while Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantium, speaking almost exclusively Greek) went on to last 1000 more years, except they influenced wrong bits of Europe so most people today tend to forget that.

 

Though, I'd say High Gothic uses Latin for pretty much the above reason, it's the (dead) language of Holy Terra, while modern Imperium speaks Low Gothic that has very little in common with it, besides a handful of loanwords (so pretty much like Latin/English relationship today).

 

 

Nope, nope, no, nope. Latin is not a romance language, romance languages are those tongues that derive directly from Latin. Philologists talk in terms of "primary" "secondary" and "tertiary" roots; English is a Germanic language but its vocabulary is heavily Latinised, with nearly 66% of English words being derived from Greco-Roman vocab. I was trying to be succinct! Saying that English has something to do with Latin because of "fancy nobles" is a horrific simplification and is in no way accurate.

 

And yes, I do talk of the longevity of Latin, and no, it is not "kind of funny"(?). Latin language was already 1200 years old when the 5th century CE rolled around (it was actively spoken until the 8th century, not the 5th), and while the primary language of the Byzantines was Greek (not Classical Greek, which is an important and relevant point but one which would take a while to explain), Greek power had been dead for over 600 years by the time it was made an official language, while Latin still played a key role in legal & political circles even after its official removal (a position of import it maintains to this day), and the Byzantines considered themselves Roman, not Greek. When historians talk about a language's importance or longevity we're not just talking about how long it was spoken for, we are talking about the cultural power it was able to exert over a given period of time (the longue durée approach). The legacy of Rome loomed over the Byzantines from beginning to end, just as the legacy of the pre-Heresy Imperium looms over 40k. They followed Roman law, practiced Roman games, etc. Nobody called them Byzantines; they were called Romans.

 

To elucidate my original post's point: why Latin over Greek for 40k? Compare the "demise" of both languages as the language of empire. The Hellenistic kingdoms rapidly fell apart but Greek culture attained a serious sphere of import in Roman society. There was no singular moment to latch onto as the moment "Greek supremacy fell". By contrast, the fall of the Western Roman Empire left an indelible mark not just on the Byzantines in the east (many rulers were laser-focused on "resurrecting" Latin culture & supremacy) but on innumerable states/proto-states in the west. Latin's relationship to Greek is not altogether dissimilar to English's relationship to Latin, but it's a pretty dense subject to discuss.

 

TLDR: 40k uses Latin because of its complex relationship to English, because of the connotations of grandeur and authority and culture it evokes, because it draws upon the idea of the "failing empire", and because of the language's longevity and lasting power ("lost knowledge" trope).

Edited February 4, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[gideon stargreave]

Came to post what Marshall Loss posted.

[Tyriks]

I agree completely with Marshall Loss. Spot on!