Orders Minoris - Strategems

[Wasperine]

Does an Order Minoris use the Strategems of the Order Majoris that it is descended from, or does it have to select a different, non "order specific" Strategem?

[RandomGuy]

No, the stratagems for the Order Majoris are keyword specific and any Order Minoris will not have that keyword (they'll have their own instead). This means that by the strict reading of the rules of you are playing an order minoris you only get access to the generic stratagems, relics and warlord traits.

 

However, some players/events will allow you to ignore this restriction and allow you to count an order minoris' keyword as being the same as the order Majoris that they decend from since to them it's seen as padantic. Although for the record I'm not one of those people and I wish this restriction was universally enforced, but I realise I am in the minority.

[Slasher956]

Sisters dex, page 100..paraphrased....if your order doesn’t have its own conviction pick the one YOU think matches it best

 

So random guy is wrong on a RAW sense...if you play a minoris you get to pick...end if

[RandomGuy]

Sorry Slasher956, I am correct. I'll explain.

 

When I pick units for my army I have to nominate their order as per page 74 of the Codex, "If an adepta Sororitas has the <ORDER> keyword, when you include such a unit in your army you must nominate which Order that unit is from." Lets say for the purpose I use the order for my old metal army; "Order of the Celestial Light" so they gain that keyword.

 

Now assuming I only use units of that order and/or the units listed in the black box on page 100 I get access to a conviction on page 101. Since my order doesn't have an associated conviction I can pick freely from the list of 6 available. Lets say I pick "Deeds not Words" which is associated with Argent Shroud and I gain the stated ability.

 

Then I go to pick my Warlord Trait. I can use any of the 6 generic ones but I can't use any of the unique ones for the named orders because my Warlord isn't from any of those orders.

 

The same logic applies for the Stratagems and Relics. My army doesn't have the right keyword to use them so can't.

 

Now I know that some people have made the argument that taking the Argent Shroud conviction "Deeds not Words" is the same thing as gaining the Argent Shroud Keyword but that just isn't the case. It means that you are at a disadvantage from a competitive sense since you have access to less tools if you chose to be an order minoris but that's the case. You can argue the merits of this system (which does feel a little silly) but not how the system works.

[Slasher956]

As you said you are a minority who read it that way...most read the stats and wl traits as linked to the conviction.......

[Lemondish]

As you said you are a minority who read it that way...most read the stats and wl traits as linked to the conviction.......

No, they do not. Most people read the rules as they are, not as they wish them to be.

 

It is exactly as RandomGuy says. If you have selected your own custom order as your keyword, you no longer have the necessary keyword to use these Stratagems. This has been the case for the entirety of 8th edition for nearly every army, so it is not a new situation. The only place where this is not true is for the new edition of the Space Marines codex where it specifically tells you how to handle the keyword arrangement for your successor chapters. Since the Adepta Sororitas codex does not do this, then you cannot. Assuming you can just because someone else can is faulty logic.

 

The solution, of course, is to have a conversation about this prior to your game. It certainly separates storytelling from the gameplay - in game terms you will be playing Argent Shroud, no matter how you have painted them or what adornments or symbols they may have, because there is not a rule preventing this. In story terms? Well, I leave that up to every gamer's capable hands.

[RandomGuy]

But they aren't linked. I can just about see how you could argue the warlord traits since they don't use keywords but the stratagems and the relics specifically use the order keywords that they are associated with. If they wanted you to be able to use them with the conviction then they would say select a unit with X conviction rather than say pick a Y order unit. In this case X does not equal Y.

 

There are cases in other armies where you have permission to change the keywords on stratagems and relics (most notably the space marine supplements) but there they very specifically state when you can and can't change the keywords in question. That level of specificness I would also say was good anicdotal evidence as well of the point I make (although if you disagree that's very much a secondary point so please don't get hung up on it).

 

Also when I said that I was in the minority of people who play it that way, there is a feeling amongst most of the players that I know locally that although the way I put it may be a strict RAW interpretation it stifles innovation and restricts people artistically, since I also make the logical connection that WYSIWYG includes painting and so anyone wanting to use the full rules (Warlord traits etc) for an order would therefore have to paint them as that order.

 

That is probably the most contentious thing really since if you are prepared to accept that any colour scheme could be any of the orders then there's nothing stopping you from using sisters painted pink with yellow tiger stripes and giving them the Order of Our Martyred Lady keyword really is there and with the Order of Our Martyred Lady keyword you would have access to the associated stratagem etc. But if you did you would have to ignore the fact that you'd already named them the Order of the Pink Tiger with their own backstory etc.

 

I accept that having a system where players divergence to official paint schemes leads to an in game disadvantage is a problem however it's the system we have and people like me do exist who prefer that rule to be enforced which is why I pointed it out. But you are free to ignore that rule and continue to play as you have done up to now; it's your hobby after all.

[tvih]

 

The solution, of course, is to have a conversation about this prior to your game. It certainly separates storytelling from the gameplay - in game terms you will be playing Argent Shroud, no matter how you have painted them or what adornments or symbols they may have, because there is not a rule preventing this. In story terms? Well, I leave that up to every gamer's capable hands.

 

Exactly. And it makes the whole conversation pointless. Why would you say your order is the "Order of Self-Imposed Nerfs" for the rule purposes when you can just say it is whatever, regardless of what your "headcanon" is. You're just creating problems out of thin air at that point. It also doesn't matter that/if they're not painted as a major Order. The Codex shows example paintjobs but it doesn't say "your models must be painted exactly like this to use these rules." And frankly anyone arguing differently at a gaming table isn't worth giving the time of day to.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Rules as Written, RandomGuy's interpretation seems to be correct.

 

However, it does seem an overly rigourist way to play the game, and I would never insist that because someone didn't want to use an official GW paint scheme they should be disadvantaged. 

 

On the other hand, if guys want to be that strict, if you attended an event run by people who hold to that view ... what's to stop you just saying your models are "Order of Our Martyred Lady" and just inside your own mind they are your own order. No need to say that out loud. Which is why I think that it's unlike GW intended such a strict/narrow interpretation but GW has never been known for writing crystal clear rules that aren't vulnerable to rules lawyering.

 

I've been out of the loop for a while, so I'll have to verify this, but the Astra Militarum codex uses the exact same wording. My impression has been that you are able to use the stratagem/relic/etc. of the regimental doctrine you use. So, using the example GW gives in the codex, if you build a Ventrillian Nobles army and take the Vostroyan Doctrine, you could use the Vostroyan stratagem.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, I use Ebon Chalice rules, but my paint scheme is pastel pink and name is Order of the Fluffiest Candycotton, so now you say I can't use the Ebon Chalice Strat "bEcAuSe YoU dOn'T hAvE eBoN kEy, YoU gOt FlUfFiEsT iNsTeAd!"?

Yeah, naw.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I also think RandomGuy is, RAW, correct, but it's a pretty literalist way to play the game.

 

IMO, there's nothing really to stop someone saying that 'today my army is being played as Valorous Heart' and using all of their rules.

 

What I think is taking the Mickey is if you start playing units as different orders even though they are painted the same, or mixing the order rules. Each order is internally balanced rules wise. (Well, in theory!) So I don't think you could play your army as Valorous Heart, and play your custom version of Junith.

 

For instance, I once played my Templars as Space Wolves. I used all of their rules, lost access to BT specific rules and even gained some burdens, as a TSons player I played could gain his anti-SW bonuses against my Templars.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Brother Adelard

[Kastor Krieg]

Basically, if your Order Conviction is, say, Ebon Chalice, you ARE playing Ebon Chalice for all rules that require that keyword (stratagems, Warlord Trait access, Order relic, etc.), even if your army is teal green and your Warlord is Canoness Alpharia.

Rules are rules. There are a limited number of keywords. There's no keyword <Alpha Order> that'd preclude you from taking Ebon Chalice stuff. You need to pick an existing option anyway.

There's actually nothing in the codex that forces you to self-nerf and pick a non-existing Order that has no Warlord trait, no strats, no relics, etc. - p. 74 literally says "All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an Order [...] If an Adepta Sororitas datasheet has the <ORDER> keyword, you must specify which Order that unit is from." - sure, you can pick your own creation, but you still have text on p. 100 giving you the option to pick an existing Order Conviction "that you feel best represents the fighting style and strategies of the warriors in your Order".

This way, your own creation, the magnificent and valorous Order Fiddlesticks can still fully RAW and legally have the Ebon Chalice Conviction and the <ORDER OF THE EBON CHALICE> keyword that comes with it, along with the Strats, Relics and whataver else (access to Junith for her Order, for example>. Or you can just out and out say "I'm playing Ebon Chalice who don't give a fiddlestick and their armour is brown" and use Ebon Chalice rules all the same.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Reclusiarch Krieg

[RandomGuy]

Basically, if your Order Conviction is, say, Ebon Chalice, you ARE playing Ebon Chalice for all rules that require that keyword (stratagems, Warlord Trait access, Order relic, etc.), even if your army is teal green and your Warlord is Canoness Alpharia.

 

Rules are rules. There are a limited number of keywords. There's no keyword <Alpha Order> that'd preclude you from taking Ebon Chalice stuff. You need to pick an existing option anyway.

 

There's actually nothing in the codex that forces you to self-nerf and pick a non-existing Order that has no Warlord trait, no strats, no relics, etc. - p. 74 literally says "All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an Order [...] If an Adepta Sororitas datasheet has the <ORDER> keyword, you must specify which Order that unit is from." - sure, you can pick your own creation, but you still have text on p. 100 giving you the option to pick an existing Order Conviction "that you feel best represents the fighting style and strategies of the warriors in your Order".

 

This way, your own creation, the magnificent and valorous Order Fiddlesticks can still fully RAW and legally have the Ebon Chalice Conviction and the <ORDER OF THE EBON CHALICE> keyword that comes with it, along with the Strats, Relics and whataver else (access to Junith for her Order, for example>. Or you can just out and out say "I'm playing Ebon Chalice who don't give a fiddlestick and their armour is brown" and use Ebon Chalice rules all the same.

No, the rules don't allow that. You missed the next sentence from page 74 which states "You then replace the <order> keyword in every instance on the datasheet with the name of your chosen order." So by the rules if you have named your order xyz then your keyword will be xyz and not one which gives you access to the bonus extras for the named orders. You could elect to decide that you're going to give them a named order keyword but that would be a lie since you know that they aren't from that order. Now it's up to your opponent and your own conscience whether you care that you are lying but you are.

 

Also there are not a limited number of keywords available, you can literally name your order anything you like. It says on page 74 "This could be one of the orders detailed in this book or another Warhammer 40,000 publication, or one of your own design." What there are however is a limited number of convictions that you can pick from.

 

The reason this matters is that WYSIWYG is a thing and to some people in this hobby that includes how an army is painted. If you are prepared to turn round and say that your teal army is Order of the ebbon chalice then can someone with a black army (maybe one that exactly matches the box art) say that they're army is too? Where do you draw the line? Maybe next edition Space Marines will again be terrible; should be let all those Ultramarines players to use sisters rules since if they didn't they'd be in your words self nerfing themselves?

 

The reality is that you draw that line where your conscience and your opponent will let you. For most people that's precludes the idea that space marines will ever be able to count as sisters. For me that's with my army being slightly nerferd so I can have my own set of background as I've given my army a non oficial order name (still TBD). I'm not saying that it should be the same for everyone else just that's the way I have played it and will continue to do so. If that seems illogical to you then fair enough. But now if you'll excuse me I have some heretics to douse in promethium.

[tvih]

Dude. If the rules say if your model is destroyed as a result of an attack, do you blow it it up with C4 just so that it's not lying about it being destroyed? You're just making things difficult for no reason. You are free to nerf yourself of course if you insist, but it is meaningless in the larger discussion where the fact remains you can play a major Order without being painted as one. Rules don't mandate your course of action here, only your preference. So why even press the issue here to begin with? Plastic/metal/resin toy soldiers aren't such a serious business.

Edited February 3, 2020 by tvih

[MoshJason]

 

Basically, if your Order Conviction is, say, Ebon Chalice, you ARE playing Ebon Chalice for all rules that require that keyword (stratagems, Warlord Trait access, Order relic, etc.), even if your army is teal green and your Warlord is Canoness Alpharia.

 

Rules are rules. There are a limited number of keywords. There's no keyword <Alpha Order> that'd preclude you from taking Ebon Chalice stuff. You need to pick an existing option anyway.

 

There's actually nothing in the codex that forces you to self-nerf and pick a non-existing Order that has no Warlord trait, no strats, no relics, etc. - p. 74 literally says "All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an Order [...] If an Adepta Sororitas datasheet has the <ORDER> keyword, you must specify which Order that unit is from." - sure, you can pick your own creation, but you still have text on p. 100 giving you the option to pick an existing Order Conviction "that you feel best represents the fighting style and strategies of the warriors in your Order".

 

This way, your own creation, the magnificent and valorous Order Fiddlesticks can still fully RAW and legally have the Ebon Chalice Conviction and the <ORDER OF THE EBON CHALICE> keyword that comes with it, along with the Strats, Relics and whataver else (access to Junith for her Order, for example>. Or you can just out and out say "I'm playing Ebon Chalice who don't give a fiddlestick and their armour is brown" and use Ebon Chalice rules all the same.

No, the rules don't allow that. You missed the next sentence from page 74 which states "You then replace the <order> keyword in every instance on the datasheet with the name of your chosen order." So by the rules if you have named your order xyz then your keyword will be xyz and not one which gives you access to the bonus extras for the named orders. You could elect to decide that you're going to give them a named order keyword but that would be a lie since you know that they aren't from that order. Now it's up to your opponent and your own conscience whether you care that you are lying but you are.

 

Also there are not a limited number of keywords available, you can literally name your order anything you like. It says on page 74 "This could be one of the orders detailed in this book or another Warhammer 40,000 publication, or one of your own design." What there are however is a limited number of convictions that you can pick from.

 

The reason this matters is that WYSIWYG is a thing and to some people in this hobby that includes how an army is painted. If you are prepared to turn round and say that your teal army is Order of the ebbon chalice then can someone with a black army (maybe one that exactly matches the box art) say that they're army is too? Where do you draw the line? Maybe next edition Space Marines will again be terrible; should be let all those Ultramarines players to use sisters rules since if they didn't they'd be in your words self nerfing themselves?

 

The reality is that you draw that line where your conscience and your opponent will let you. For most people that's precludes the idea that space marines will ever be able to count as sisters. For me that's with my army being slightly nerferd so I can have my own set of background as I've given my army a non oficial order name (still TBD). I'm not saying that it should be the same for everyone else just that's the way I have played it and will continue to do so. If that seems illogical to you then fair enough. But now if you'll excuse me I have some heretics to douse in promethium.

Through that lies madness.

 

How close do they have to be?

 

Is it the exact right shade of red paint, or is it a lie? Did you trim your canoness with gold, only to find out that it's supposed to be silver, so now your whole army is invalid?

 

Does the bloody rose only have two canonesses, so your third stops it from being legal, because we all know that they only have two and saying three would be a lie?

[RandomGuy]

No I think you are misunderstanding me. It's about intent. If you intended when you painted the army to be a specific order then it probably is that order. If you paint them a different shade or slightly embelesh the scheme then it just makes them your army and not the one the studio uses. After all if we asked everyone here to paint a model from a specific order no 2 would be identical in terms of the colour recipes used.

 

What makes it a lie is when you intend to paint your army as a unique order of your own making and then claim it isn't what you painted them as and they are now actually one of the named orders just so you can gain a rules advantage.

 

In terms of only having the numbers of models that an order has in the background then I will leave that up to the players involved. There is no specific rule that states you can't have more of something than they exist in the background beyond special characters. It's a red herring though and a completely different discussion.

 

You might call it madness, I call it rules as written and yes the 2 are fairly close at times (this probably being one of them), it's still the damn rules!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I cannot see it as a rules ADVANTAGE, I see it as playing my own order on a level playing field.

 

If I play my order as 'The Order of the Divine Judgment' I lose access to rules which other sisters armies have simply because they were painted differently. In effect penalising me on the table for having a creative will not to follow one of 6 colour schemes. (Which I chose not to do because I didn't want to paint more black, white or red.) Whereas if I choose to play my order as Ebon Chalice I gain access to rules which have been internally balanced against the other orders.

 

This is a very different situation from where Space Marines are right now. If I play my pink space marines as a custom chapter of IF descent I get access to pretty much everything the Imperial Fists player does rules wise, their strats, their doctrine bonus and if I want, even their trait. (Although I could even choose two custom traits if I so choose.) All I lose are the special characters, but for a strat I can gain chapter master auras.

 

You do you. But if I were to be matched against someone, on a casual game, who insisted that I play as you do, I think I would decline to play you.

[EmperorGTank]

But what if, let's say, the personal order you start was founded by a Sister Superior or Canoness from one of the major orders, like the Sacred Rose or Ebon Chalice in your headcanon? What if this minor order acts like a "successor chapter" for a major order since it was closely linked in some way, on an adjacent world or something? What if, in your minor order's history, it makes total sense for your order to fight with the same faith as the daughters of Alicia, therefore the Ebon Chalice, or the same righteous anger as the Bloody Rose? That's how I've always looked at it, your minor orders are allowed to use what a major order has access to because in your canon that order fights like that major order, or even several (as long as they are in different detachments). Your personal ork clan might be called something different but fights like the Bad Moons or Goffs and etc. It's that flavor in the game that makes me believe GW never intended the keyword argument to be so heavily scrutinized when it comes to your order vs a major one and why you can still use those stratagems, almost like you have the keyword, and I'll use my order as an example, <<CERULEAN BLADE(EBON CHALICE)>>

[ATPete]

 From a fluffy perspective, regardless of RAW or RAI, the Order special rules don't really sit well with me because they're brand new for this codex only and therefore don't necessarily fit the preconceived character I had in mind of my order.
 

 I painted my models as Argent Shroud because they have that awesome knightly sheen with the silver armour. Did I paint all my models that way because I was really excited to play an army that could advance and shoot all their guns? Nope. Is that the special rule I'd have imagined they would get? Nah. I don't know what rule I'd have given them, but probably not that.

 

 From a gameplay perspective I'm happy enough to stick with it because it's quite good but it doesn't fit with my imagining of my orders fluff, of which there's been very little ever written before now. That the order special rules aren't all that heavily themed (bloody rose makes the most sense out of them I think) makes me prefer a looser interpretation of letting people give the rules to custom orders and I feel like the strict application of rules to a paint scheme is out of character with the game, but I've been playing for a while.

 

 I'm quite loose with rules and WYSIWYG gaming so long as people are clear about their intentions, a bit because I'd be annoyed if someone complained about my old metal minis not being 100% wargear accurate and a bit because keeping everything 100% wysiwyg 100% of the time can get very expensive and I'd rather have more relaxed casual fun.

[Slasher956]

For what its worth my personal take is this:

 

There are 6 sub factions /rules... when you pick your conviction you are picking the sub faction rules... and that includes strats & warlord traits - they are linked to the Major Orders name for ease.

 

If you want to run 2 (or more) sub factions then the models need to be clearly identified either by paint schemes or bases,

 

IE if you want to run your  OoOML painted girls as Bloody Rose then go for it... If you want to run half as OoOML & half as Bloody Rose then I need to be able to tell which is which across a table!  ( I dont agree with GWs Tournament rules that OooML = only ever OoOML)

Edited February 4, 2020 by Slasher956

[bkde]

Agreed with AT Pete and Slasher above. I painted all my girls silver and purple because I liked the colours and started with the army back in 6th edition, played through the mess that was 7th, and now 8th.

 

That's the WD dex, 7th ed dex, Index Imperial 2, Chap Approved 2018, and now this book. And because GW introduced rules for various subfactions for someone to tell me the army that I've painted can or can't be run as something. Definitely won't be playing against that person.

 

In Chap Approved they were Ebon Chalice, this book they're Argent Shroud. The Exorcists are even Valourous Heart!

[Kastor Krieg]

@RandomGuy
So, hold on. You're saying that if I paint my Space Marines in urban camo and give them made up markings and name them Chapter Ultima Tacticool, I cannot use the rules of any of the First Founding Chapters because the paintjob doesn't reflect any of the rulesets?

I'm sorry, but this is BS of the highest order.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

To be fair, you can do that within the Rules as Written as they stand. Just play them as a complete successor. You just lose the special characters.

[WolfVonhinslik]

I have played in an ITC and when I take a Battalion I can make there order Martyred Lady, my second Battalion could be Ardent Shroud. I have base rings to differentiate each Battalion (Red Bases are Martyred Lady). Even tho my Army Order is actually Our Last Breath, by the rules you can dictate what battalion falls under what Order. 

[Dusktiger]

This is just my understanding of things;

 

The issue with some arguing that RAW somehow restricts access to 2/3 of the special rules because one page says this, and another page says proxy that, because this 2.0 codex for a different army over there does things like this instead to deal with avoiding this very problem is silly.  Don't forget that sometimes, they don't write and publish the codex's in the exact order they're released in.  Sometimes the book is held onto for a while because the release wave for something else with models is coming up first.  This is evidenced by reading all that fine print that's at the bottom of the first couple pages, usually before your table of contents.  Or in the case of miniatures, reading the copyright date that's printed on the sprue.  (though this is usually done with just the Year printed, sometimes you'll notice the year is up to 2 or 3 years behind the first year of release.)

 

It's very likely that the SoB codex was written and ready to go before the new 2.0 marines codex was.  And thus they didn't realize that some players would argue this point until the book had already been done.  But they caught onto the problem that would occur when writing the marine codex and fixed it in that one.

 

So arguing "but that's not how they deal with the problem in the 2.0 marine book!!" isn't a strong platform to use to validate the RAW argument about how much 'Counts-as' is allowable in the 8th Edition codex.

in fact, i'd say it just disproves the argument that you dont get full access to ebon chalice stuff, or blood rose stuff.  Is there a chart that lets you choose your own army-wide tactics (conviction)?  Is there custom ones in the book if you decide not to play the 6 major orders? 

 

If the only rules in the book are for the 6 major orders, with, as stated before, some generic non-major-specific stratagems, then you're playing one of 6 orders period.  the generics are generic, because they're there for any of the 6 orders to use.  The generic stratagems not there to state that anyone not painting their army one of 6 example themes can only use these and cant touch any relics or named characters.  It doesn't matter what color your army is.  It doesn't matter what name you headcanon your army as.  You're playing either Ebon Chalice, Bloody Rose, Sacred Rose, Argent Shroud, Valorous Heart, or Martyred Lady.

 

And if you still insist on saying "but 2.0 marines...", then recall how we did things with the 1.0 marines codex for 8th edition.  It didn't matter what color your models are painted, or what you called the army.  You were playing one of X Chapters in the book.  And its the same with the SoB.  You're playing one of X Orders in the book.  Paint them how you like. Name them what you like. but they play one of 6 ways.  That's why we have the term Counts-As.