Orders Minoris - Strategems

[General Strike]

 

Basically, if your Order Conviction is, say, Ebon Chalice, you ARE playing Ebon Chalice for all rules that require that keyword (stratagems, Warlord Trait access, Order relic, etc.), even if your army is teal green and your Warlord is Canoness Alpharia.

 

Rules are rules. There are a limited number of keywords. There's no keyword <Alpha Order> that'd preclude you from taking Ebon Chalice stuff. You need to pick an existing option anyway.

 

There's actually nothing in the codex that forces you to self-nerf and pick a non-existing Order that has no Warlord trait, no strats, no relics, etc. - p. 74 literally says "All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an Order [...] If an Adepta Sororitas datasheet has the <ORDER> keyword, you must specify which Order that unit is from." - sure, you can pick your own creation, but you still have text on p. 100 giving you the option to pick an existing Order Conviction "that you feel best represents the fighting style and strategies of the warriors in your Order".

 

This way, your own creation, the magnificent and valorous Order Fiddlesticks can still fully RAW and legally have the Ebon Chalice Conviction and the <ORDER OF THE EBON CHALICE> keyword that comes with it, along with the Strats, Relics and whataver else (access to Junith for her Order, for example>. Or you can just out and out say "I'm playing Ebon Chalice who don't give a fiddlestick and their armour is brown" and use Ebon Chalice rules all the same.

No, the rules don't allow that. You missed the next sentence from page 74 which states "You then replace the <order> keyword in every instance on the datasheet with the name of your chosen order." So by the rules if you have named your order xyz then your keyword will be xyz and not one which gives you access to the bonus extras for the named orders. You could elect to decide that you're going to give them a named order keyword but that would be a lie since you know that they aren't from that order. Now it's up to your opponent and your own conscience whether you care that you are lying but you are.

 

Also there are not a limited number of keywords available, you can literally name your order anything you like. It says on page 74 "This could be one of the orders detailed in this book or another Warhammer 40,000 publication, or one of your own design." What there are however is a limited number of convictions that you can pick from.

 

The reason this matters is that WYSIWYG is a thing and to some people in this hobby that includes how an army is painted. If you are prepared to turn round and say that your teal army is Order of the ebbon chalice then can someone with a black army (maybe one that exactly matches the box art) say that they're army is too? Where do you draw the line? Maybe next edition Space Marines will again be terrible; should be let all those Ultramarines players to use sisters rules since if they didn't they'd be in your words self nerfing themselves?

 

The reality is that you draw that line where your conscience and your opponent will let you. For most people that's precludes the idea that space marines will ever be able to count as sisters. For me that's with my army being slightly nerferd so I can have my own set of background as I've given my army a non oficial order name (still TBD). I'm not saying that it should be the same for everyone else just that's the way I have played it and will continue to do so. If that seems illogical to you then fair enough. But now if you'll excuse me I have some heretics to douse in promethium.

Where does it say they have to be painted a certain way? Did I miss that part? Because unless you show me in any of the codices or rulebooks that rule, none of it matters. Edited February 16, 2020 by General Strike

[Purifying Tempest]

*Reads thread... heart breaks... shakes head and resolves to write down "Valorous Heart" on any army list while saying "Guardians of the Gate" at the tabletop.*

 

I know you all are trying to be helpful... but no one really is.  This is like Drax levels of simplistic thinking.  And nothing goes over his head.

 

The solution is to always refer to your army as your personalized order when discussing fluff and narrative and even during a game for the immersion... and when you show up to a tournament and you have to hand over your list... simply write "Order of <Insert Canon Order Here>" on the sheet... and go about your business.  If someone gives you gruff over referring to your models as you please... point them to the paper that says you are indeed (in writing) playing with whatever order's rules you picked to reflect your minor order.  And even that, like 99.9999% of the time, no one is going to bat a lash when you say "My army is Order of the Guardians of the Gate, playing as Valorous Heart for the rules".

 

I mean, the extension of this argument becomes: If your models ARE NOT PAINTED up as a major order... you get no Order strats, WL traits, or relics since you are clearly not Order X, Y, or Z.  And I think we all know how that will go over in the larger scope of the game and community.

[Lemondish]

^

 

It's almost like this was already mentioned but folks chose to ignore it because it didn't fit their perspective of how the game is meant to be played.

[Astral Arcane]

Some of you guys are being pedantic and splitting hairs. 

I've been playing SoB for close to 20 years, with 3k in painted 15 years old models, in purple and white for my own Order of the Avenging Angel. Suddenly this new codex comes out and gives specific rules to Orders and now my entire army is invalidated? 

Sorry that doesn't make sense and you're unnecessarily quibbling over a non-issue. At that rate you should refuse to play anyone who's army isn't painted with GW paints because their color scheme is off and clearly their models cannot "counts as" whatever they are intended to be.  

 

Unless you're playing in some official GW event, if someone says their Pink Panthers Sisters counts as Order of the Argent Shroud, then so be it. 

[Schlitzaf]

I’m mixed opanion, like frankly speaking if some DIY Order wants to use Order “Only” Strats and Traits I am fine. Also keep in mind (Order) is ACTUALLY derived from (Conviction). Rememeber the Vigilus FAQ regarding Specialist Detachment.

 

A (Name) Detachment is considered to be a (Name) Detachment based (Codex Tactic) Detachment. Which is a whole another can of beans.

 

But where I draw personal line is “Tactic” Souping. I.e “My shooty units are Fists, my assault units are Blood Angels” that had referenced earlier. Through to remember while its not a massive deal for sisters, gaining tactic but not keyword is an important interaction. Many cases is a pure negative, but some.

 

Notably Tempestus Scion, 1.0 Marine Codex (Black Templar), and Farsight Enclaves all have unit restrictions tied to (Keyword). Meaning you can pick those tactics for DIY Armies while you lose some things. You do gain access to notably;

1) Rest of IG Codex

2) Librarians

3) Ethreals

 

And for DIY armies that have named characters (basically Marine only) this meant you weren’t restricted to Warlord Trait of Progenitor/Share Tactics with.