Ritual of the Damned, game experience what's working/not

[SnakeChisler]

OK had a couple of games and have been surprised about a few things

 

Chaplain - I've been using Asmodai and I can't see any other option (unless your going Jump Pack) the ability to pick from 2 litanies is gold.

 

Deathwing Ancient - His new FNP relic applies to Deathwing Infantry as does the +1 Attack and all of the Main Characters are Deathwing (Azreal, Ezekiel & Asmodai)

 

I'd gotten backed into a corner and had to drop the Ancient in but had no room for the Knights so Azreal had to go chop up stuff on his own and after re-reading the rules the buffs all applied so ended up with 8 attacks if he'd been against 10 models he could have used Outnumbered but never Outmatched.

 

Anyway 70+ points to give your HQ's an extra attack and 5+ FNP is cool

 

Next thing that came up in this particulate battle was me choosing the Corvus Oculus for the Talon Master it was a complete waste of CP as my opponent was Necron so came hurtling towards me.

He had Wraiths so Many Wraiths what should I have chosen Doh the Reliquary of the Repentant on the Ravenwing Apothecary (now 60 points)

I got smashed up as he made save after save a -1 would have seen them cleared in 1 round

 

The Impeccable Mobility Warlord trait is auto if your running a Talon Master

 

If your running Intercessors add a powerfist use the veteran Strat and if there near Asmodai you have a cheap counter attack unit Sgt has 5 attacks rest have 4

 

What has anyone else tried?

[Wrath of Bruinen]

+1 to Impeccable Mobility being an auto take. Has the added benefit of making my ravenwing bubble less reliant on Speed of the Raven, and opens up the possibility of MSU black knight squads (rather than a smaller number of big units for strat efficiency). 

 

The strat to give a unit jink when they haven't advanced yet is also mighty fine when you're stuck going second.

[FarFromSam]

I did not realize the Dw ancient got to keep the +1 attack when taking the FnP.

 

+1 to the jink after not jinking when going 2nd. It's real handy.

 

Also, the chaplain improving the hit by 1 on overcharging plasma makes me moist.

Edited February 2, 2020 by farfromsam

[Grimdark_Garage]

My initial thoughts on the Outrider WT were true. Black knights don't need that extra 12" move when on the offense. There are better traits to use. It could benefit speeders with MM though I've not tested.

 

Similarly, corvus occulus hasn't done much for me. I'd rather use Signal the Attack for safe overcharge. Again, will prove its worth with speeders and talons.

 

Stoic Persecution is golden with Aggressors

[G8Keeper]

My initial thoughts on the Outrider WT were true. Black knights don't need that extra 12" move when on the offense. There are better traits to use. It could benefit speeders with MM though I've not tested.

 

Similarly, corvus occulus hasn't done much for me. I'd rather use Signal the Attack for safe overcharge. Again, will prove its worth with speeders and talons.

 

Stoic Persecution is golden with Aggressors

Is that based on the plasma talon range or ability to charge turn 1 etc? I only ask as I think it would be a decent utility for getting your deathwing teleport 6" strat (at work, forgot it's name lol) off in a decent position.

[sneakybamsen]

I ran a Ravenwing heavy list (troops and a chaplain was the only non-RW I had) yesterday at a tournament, and I gotta say, going second in 3/3 games on fairly open tables isn't fun. I got absolutely hammered in all 3 games to the point where after two turns there wasn't any sense in continuing.

In general we need big units when running bikes and speeders. Especially since the strat to activate jink when you haven't advanced is a stratagem, so only applicable to one unit.

I will discontinue using a Darkshroud untill it gets a lot cheaper. In 3 games it made no difference, even when I tried to keep it alive for the longest possible.

Corvus Oculus is decent, but probably not an auto take. It does help against flyers or possessed bombs and whatnot, so for certain matchups it can be really good. But the range bonus is only really relevant if you are running lots of long range shooting (not black knights). When you do run Ravenwing attack Squadron and you have sableclaw as well, you have more options for triggering Signal the Attack with it.

I ran two Dark Talons (as they were painted) in my list, but they do not stack up well enough with RWAS, and they benefit too little from the devastator doctrine. I'd rather save the 43 points per plane and run Nephilim Jetfighters. I know they do not have rift cannons or the bombs, but that is made up by higher S on average and volume of said higher S (plus the AP). They also have a lot longer range.

 

If I am going to be dedicated to RW, I think massed speeders (12-15) and tripple Nephilims is a solid choice with a occulus+mobility Talonmaster and maybe Sableclaw. If not going that route, I might try BK's with ancient going berzerk turn 1 to help Deathwing Knights with an Ancient on the board turn two. Chaplain to help make charges easier and so on.

 

After my first games post Ritual of the Damned I think the book is trying to do too many things for The First. "Jack of all trades, master of none" is the feeling I have currently. It might be that my list yesterday was not punching as well as it should and certainly not surviving the way some of you might see it (it's in the DA army list subforum). I can say I didn't make major mistakes, but had a gambit or two not succeeding.

[G8Keeper]

I had a similar thought re: Nephilims, that being said, 30" hurricane bolters (15" rapid fire) is nothing to sniff at either.  When I can actually arrange a game I'll give the Neph's a run out and see where they're at, I run twin lacannons on mine as for some reason I forgot about magnets so we'll see how they go.

[Grimdark_Garage]

 

My initial thoughts on the Outrider WT were true. Black knights don't need that extra 12" move when on the offense. There are better traits to use. It could benefit speeders with MM though I've not tested.

 

Similarly, corvus occulus hasn't done much for me. I'd rather use Signal the Attack for safe overcharge. Again, will prove its worth with speeders and talons.

 

Stoic Persecution is golden with Aggressors

Is that based on the plasma talon range or ability to charge turn 1 etc? I only ask as I think it would be a decent utility for getting your deathwing teleport 6" strat (at work, forgot it's name lol) off in a decent osition.

 

Plasma range. It quickly became obvious I dont want my BK in combat. (a lesson i heave now most certainly learnt!)

 

In the game i used them, i got all giddy to use the new toys from PA4 and thought "ah to hell with it, lets charge some stuff turn 1"

 

All this did was get them bogged down in the enemy lines. I had to use alot of gaminess and some CP to get them out of combat but by that point they were very much on the defensive.

 

With Speed of the Raven, we have a 20" move which easily brings them into threat range with them now having 21" range on their guns (whilst in the Dev Doctrine) meaning a net 41" threat range.

Most importantly, Speed of the Raven is a strategem so its use is optional. If i dont use it, i dont lose out.

 

Ultimately, i want my Black Knights mid board, outside of charge range as much as possible.

 

It could be a good tactic for, say, a RW champion. A unit you DO want in the thick of it whose loss wont be all that impacful.

If you have sizable DW units, i defintaly see the benfit. But i personally dont use DW and have better uses for WT's and CP's etc.

 

TLDR : If youre running pure Plasma Bikes and no DW, probably not a good use for them. Stick with Speed of the Raven if you need that extra range.  

[Grimdark_Garage]

After my first games post Ritual of the Damned I think the book is trying to do too many things for The First. "Jack of all trades, master of none" is the feeling I have currently. It might be that my list yesterday was not punching as well as it should and certainly not surviving the way some of you might see it (it's in the DA army list subforum). I can say I didn't make major mistakes, but had a gambit or two not succeeding.

I had a similar thought but have now come to the understanding that its more a book full of toys that you cannot build around, but certainly add potency to our army.

Were a gunline with elements of speed and deepstrike power and it seems were now more geared towards that than anything else.

 

I AM however building a Smash Chaplain and look forward to him hopefully ploughing through enemy armour.

[oldmanlee]

I ran a Ravenwing heavy list (troops and a chaplain was the only non-RW I had) yesterday at a tournament, and I gotta say, going second in 3/3 games on fairly open tables isn't fun. I got absolutely hammered in all 3 games to the point where after two turns there wasn't any sense in continuing.

In general we need big units when running bikes and speeders. Especially since the strat to activate jink when you haven't advanced is a stratagem, so only applicable to one unit.

I will discontinue using a Darkshroud untill it gets a lot cheaper. In 3 games it made no difference, even when I tried to keep it alive for the longest possible.

Corvus Oculus is decent, but probably not an auto take. It does help against flyers or possessed bombs and whatnot, so for certain matchups it can be really good. But the range bonus is only really relevant if you are running lots of long range shooting (not black knights). When you do run Ravenwing attack Squadron and you have sableclaw as well, you have more options for triggering Signal the Attack with it.

I ran two Dark Talons (as they were painted) in my list, but they do not stack up well enough with RWAS, and they benefit too little from the devastator doctrine. I'd rather save the 43 points per plane and run Nephilim Jetfighters. I know they do not have rift cannons or the bombs, but that is made up by higher S on average and volume of said higher S (plus the AP). They also have a lot longer range.

 

If I am going to be dedicated to RW, I think massed speeders (12-15) and tripple Nephilims is a solid choice with a occulus+mobility Talonmaster and maybe Sableclaw. If not going that route, I might try BK's with ancient going berzerk turn 1 to help Deathwing Knights with an Ancient on the board turn two. Chaplain to help make charges easier and so on.

 

After my first games post Ritual of the Damned I think the book is trying to do too many things for The First. "Jack of all trades, master of none" is the feeling I have currently. It might be that my list yesterday was not punching as well as it should and certainly not surviving the way some of you might see it (it's in the DA army list subforum). I can say I didn't make major mistakes, but had a gambit or two not succeeding.

 

I'm going down the route of mass speeders ( 2 max units) Intresting about the nephilims as I would have thought they sort of do the same jobs as the speeders

I also agree about the dark shroud I've not used one in a list for over a year now too many thing just bypass it now

[Berzul]

I haven't tried much of the new rules yet, and what I have tried I have partially applied wrong. But, so far what I can tell REALLY works, is the combination of Deathwing Knights, and the Deathwing Ancient, with the Pennant of Rememberance. When you add to that T5, these guys become incredibly good at tanking damage, and dishing out some bloody retribution.

[Angel of Solitude]

Yup Berzul - that's a brutal combination for sure, although given the discussion about trying to avoid getting Black Knights into charge range, I guess the delivery mechanism needs some practice.

 

As for speeders vs Nephilim, the one big thing that the Nephilim has going for it is the massive 50" movement range and 54" weapon range turn one. I was having a conversation on Discord where a fellow DA player was complaining about their BK being tremor shelled by some Thunderfire Cannons. I feel Nephilims might be a suitable counter to that.

[Berzul]

Yup Berzul - that's a brutal combination for sure, although given the discussion about trying to avoid getting Black Knights into charge range, I guess the delivery mechanism needs some practice.

 

As for speeders vs Nephilim, the one big thing that the Nephilim has going for it is the massive 50" movement range and 54" weapon range turn one. I was having a conversation on Discord where a fellow DA player was complaining about their BK being tremor shelled by some Thunderfire Cannons. I feel Nephilims might be a suitable counter to that.

Yes. I have been practicing how to better position my bikes for Combined Assault. Hasn't been easy to get the handle of how to maneuver the bikes, even with Full Throttle to help.

 

What I am doing so far is playing a TDA Librarian with my Deathwing, and I am giving him Hero of the Chapter, to grant him Master of Maneuver. That way, no matter if I manage a combined assault or not, I still have a fairly decent chance of getting a charge in. At the same time, playing the Deathwing Knights on the board turn one also works.

[sneakybamsen]

Dark Talons vs Nephilims used to be a no-brainer. Then came CA 2019 and we just got PA4. The fact that the points difference is now 43 for a unit that is more mobile, as durable, has much better threat range, and is better at killing primaris (which is damn well a thing) means a lot (and doesn't give up on strafing run). If you need to, pop speed of the raven to have full board threat range, so no angle more or less is safe, and you will see opponents cram all up to keep their precious units out of harms way. I wouldn't take the twin las version, as that takes it into dark talon territory points wise. The clear strength to me is the cost and use of devastator doctrine (although the Dark Talon also became a little cheaper and also benefits from the extra range).

[oldmanlee]

Interesting I’m going to a tournament in March might try 3 nephilims and 12 speeders then work from there seeing what works

[Guest MistaGav]

I'm seeing more and more cases now for the Nephilim Jetfighter and well *sighs* adds to basket...
 

Dakkawise they seem pretty much the same as a Talonmaster but a few more wounds so doesn't seem too bad now.

[Fierce Bear]

I've run three games and three different lists now, I am still finding my feet with all the new stratagems, I do keep confusing some with Chaplain Litanies!

 

Excuses/Caveats/disbelief out the first, I've had some odd missions (twice had to split my force into three at deployment) and some binary dice rolls i.e. I can't make a 3++ and my opponent yesterday struggled to fail them!!!

 

 

Against the Thousand Sons, my Talon Master and Landspeeders wiped a Scarab Occult unit and halve a Daemon Prince and some Tzaangors first turn before fading out to the -2 ap/invuln happy traitor space wizards. Didn't know my strats, didn't have enough CP.

 

Against Imperial Fists I took Greenwing and Deathwing, slammed them hard on the first turn, my Hellblasters and long range bolters took a 10 man intercessors and a repulsor with easy (though I forgot to use WOTDA.. doh!) Again I faded quickly after this massed aggressors bolterfire just minced the DWT and DWK just got peppered following a failed charge.

 

My deepstrike was baaaad, should have reinforced my gunline...

 

 

Last night's game, Ravenwing backed up by a battalion of Greenwing for CP.

 

Talonmaster, 3 land speeders, attack bikes, bike squads and a Dark Talon against Fenrisian Space wolves and Thunder wolves... The Speeders did a huge shift wiping a unit of 15 wolf chaff a turn.

 

Lost the game on points but only really because my opponent made something like 100 (seriously felt like it over three turns) 3++ Stormshield saves from the Thunder wolves, eventually killed two squads still a full one left though.

 

Used a heap of strats, a few sequencing mess ups, being unable to bring down the the thunder wolves though. Took a slash master and jump pack chaplain, I should have taken Sammael!

 

 

 

I think Ravenwing with TM + 3 typhoon speeders and / or Sammael with bikes / BKs give you a fantastic mobile firebase, also a squad of 5 stalker bolter armed intercessors have surprising utility! 42" range, 2d a shot... No risk of overcharge?! Lovely.

 

My last two games were 1500pts I think I understand my RW build now (circa 1000pts) then a battalion of Greenwing (circa 450 PTS) then perhaps a 500pt DW detachment...

 

 

Greenwing is just marines, but Ravenwing can mobile castle and with speeders just FLY out of combat and three typhoon launchers with -1ap on even frag work really well!

 

Still haven't mastered Litanies!! Chaplain did slay a warlord though!!!

[NCSUWolf]

I agree with the previously stated: PA:RotD seems to be spreading out focus a bit more than I'd like. I've now had 3 games (a tournament this past weekend) and while it did not go so well (1-2) I did find things I enjoyed:

 

Talon Master with Impeccable Mobility and Covus Occulus + Sammael + Nephilim + Black Knights (2x 5 man) was glorious in 2 of the 3 games. Game 1 vs Knights and Guard (2x Crusaders, 4x Morax with Lightning Locks, and 2x Warglaives) I went second and lost one squad of Knights and my Darkshroud. In response I slagged one of his Crusaders. The game was neck and neck until turn 4 when I failed to trap a guard unit with Sammael, Talon master and my last RWBK. 

 

Key Lessons: Supped up Talon Master shreds infantry squads; Nephilim are prime to trigger Signal the Attack; Darkshroud really didn't pull it's weight at all. 

 

Game 2 was inconsequential as it was vs Grey Knights on a board full of ruins/boxes making target availability nearly impossible so I was just shot (through walls via Astral Aim) off the board until he came out to Smite me to ribbons

 

Game 3 vs Slaneesh Daemons/Emperors Children TDA/NightLords Raptors everything was amazing: Bikes blasted infantry and then used Hit+Run to surge into his backfield; Smash Chaplain (not even fully buffed) counter charged and tore apart Raptors and Lords in equal measure. 

 

 

Our extra range from the super doctrine really makes alot of our units shine, especially things like Eliminators getting Grim Resolve reroll while staying in range. I'm very much looking forward to using it on units like Leviathan Dreadnoughts and Repulsors. Im also trying to work out Deathwing as Knights, on paper, look like they'll be absolute murder midfield without an excessive amount of support (Ancient with FnP Banner, maybe Asmodai and or Ezekiel arriving in a pod; use Sammael or Black Knight characters like an Apothecary to get into position). 

[Grimdark_Garage]

I agree with the previously stated: PA:RotD seems to be spreading out focus a bit more than I'd like. I've now had 3 games (a tournament this past weekend) and while it did not go so well (1-2) I did find things I enjoyed:

 

Talon Master with Impeccable Mobility and Covus Occulus + Sammael + Nephilim + Black Knights (2x 5 man) was glorious in 2 of the 3 games. Game 1 vs Knights and Guard (2x Crusaders, 4x Morax with Lightning Locks, and 2x Warglaives) I went second and lost one squad of Knights and my Darkshroud. In response I slagged one of his Crusaders. The game was neck and neck until turn 4 when I failed to trap a guard unit with Sammael, Talon master and my last RWBK. 

 

Key Lessons: Supped up Talon Master shreds infantry squads; Nephilim are prime to trigger Signal the Attack; Darkshroud really didn't pull it's weight at all. 

 

Game 2 was inconsequential as it was vs Grey Knights on a board full of ruins/boxes making target availability nearly impossible so I was just shot (through walls via Astral Aim) off the board until he came out to Smite me to ribbons

 

Game 3 vs Slaneesh Daemons/Emperors Children TDA/NightLords Raptors everything was amazing: Bikes blasted infantry and then used Hit+Run to surge into his backfield; Smash Chaplain (not even fully buffed) counter charged and tore apart Raptors and Lords in equal measure. 

 

 

Our extra range from the super doctrine really makes alot of our units shine, especially things like Eliminators getting Grim Resolve reroll while staying in range. I'm very much looking forward to using it on units like Leviathan Dreadnoughts and Repulsors. Im also trying to work out Deathwing as Knights, on paper, look like they'll be absolute murder midfield without an excessive amount of support (Ancient with FnP Banner, maybe Asmodai and or Ezekiel arriving in a pod; use Sammael or Black Knight characters like an Apothecary to get into position). 

Sounds like a great few games (GK look to have had the rockets firmly strapped to them after PA4)

Might i ask, what was your list? It sounds very familar to my own go-to list. 

[Hantheman]

Landspeeders and Talonmasters have been my MVP three games running. The missiles give some well needed anti-tank, the 6 wounds is annoying to shoot through, and talonmasters with Sammael will kill most things.

 

Relic whirlwind scorpius is good now with reroll 1s and double shooting. Good primaris killer.

[oldmanlee]

How many speeders are people running? The list I'm going to be running has 2 max units of 5 2 talonmasters and sammie is that too many?

[Hantheman]

I run just 5 (as it’s all I have)

[SnakeChisler]

How many speeders are people running? The list I'm going to be running has 2 max units of 5 2 talonmasters and sammie is that too many?

I've 6 normal altogether will probably run them as 4 + 2 (I've 4 Typhoon + 2 others with 5 magnetised) Ill do some measuring tho the footprint of 5 looks a bit big and a 3 footprint I'm used to

 

Missions will mean some smaller squads will be useful it will depend on what weapons they have as well the assault cannons now getting 30" andd neg 2 is sounding good, also your getting 20" move for squads 3+

[Angel of Solitude]

How many speeders are people running? The list I'm going to be running has 2 max units of 5 2 talonmasters and sammie is that too many?

I'm currently running 4 - 3 to get the 20" movement, and another one to add a bit of redundancy. That's already 324 points, which already feels towards the top end of my comfort level for unit sizes.

 

Game number 2 tonight, so another chance to see how they fare.

[BlackTriton]

DW knight with DW Ancien And Rw Apothecary for combined assault is totally worth it now.

3++ and 5+++ combined with a large selection of defensive stratagem (+1T, Transhuman, -1 to W) allows you to taylor to the treat and assure you they will stand.

The Watcher in the dark is an amazing investment, cancelling a smite or even better Death Hex is well worth it.

Edited February 4, 2020 by BlackTriton