Primarch Triumvirate

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is by far the best choice for rebuilding the Imperium, and for ruling it.

 

In the novel "The Regent's Shadow" by Chris Wraight, we get to see the true political masterclass Guilliman possesses. To put it bluntly, he is so many moves ahead of the other high ranking politicians, they don't realise they've lost before they even started playing.

 

The Lion lacks the social acumen of Guilliman, but is arguably an even better military commander.

It has been shown too often that he isn't an inspirational leader, or one that inspires loyalty. Half of his own Legion even turned against him.

 

Despite this, I think the Lion is the best choice to return by a long shot. We all know where he is, very little plot is required to justify his return, and he can play an important role as the new Imperial Warmaster - something which really suits him as he is also quite ruthless.

 

He has a good relationship with Guilliman, yet will offer a good bit of political conflict and new power games by virtue of his nature.

 

Also if he returns we can hopefully put the fallen sub-plot to bed. Honestly by the time I finished the novel "War of Secrets" I was completely fed up with this aspect of the Dark Angels. Can we please get some new and interesting secret objectives for the chapter? Let's get it resolved and let's bury the Dark Angel traitor memes once and for all.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

Guilliman makes sense as the previous regent to return first and retake that place. I think one of the points they are trying to drive is that a Primarch cannot just come in and hand wave change the imperium. The legitimacy of returning to the position of Lord Commander was necessary.

 

I do think they may end the chasing the Fallen sub plot, by making them an open traitor Legion of some kind or something like that. Much of what they're doing with the current HH aesthetic is just better I think. Given certain recent decisions, I wonder if they will then also change the DA in 40k to be closer to that.

 

Although in recent publications, the HL of Terra see the Unforgiven as a counter to Guilliman, a reforged 1st Legion aligned with his goals would be massive to changing some of the Imperium's momentum.

Edited September 1, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[b1soul]

I'd say the Lion certainly inherited his Father's lack of social finesse. His tantrum in Angels of Caliban comes to mind. Poor Luther but even poorer Nemiel.

[TrashMan]

How many Fallen are there?

The Fallen where only part of a legion and have been scattered and hunted for 10000 years, now they are suddenly assembling in great numbers.

What gives?

[Karhedron]

How many Fallen are there?

That's the problem, no one knows. I think at the end of the HH novels, there were supposed to be something like 30,000 DAa under Luther's command, many of them his own recruits. He spent most of the HH recruiting new DAs but then not sending them off to the front lines as the Lion went MIA once the Ruinstorm was unleashed.

 

How many died during the Fall of Caliban and how many have been captured since? Have the Fallen been recruiting since the Heresy? Many Chaos legions have found ways to induct new recruits so I don't see why the Fallen should be any different.

[WrathOfTheLion]

My guess is that the great rift somehow acted as a beacon or anchor for the remaining ones drifting through time, or something like that.

 

There should be tens of thousands of fallen.

[TrashMan]

Originally, yes. But after 10000 Years of being hunted down, I'd expect that number to be significantly lower.

The DA are anything if not persistent.

[Blindhamster]

Originally, yes. But after 10000 Years of being hunted down, I'd expect that number to be significantly lower.

The DA are anything if not persistent.

remember that its not been 10k years for most beings that went into the warp. In fact, its significantly lower than that (although i would guess for some its been longer too..). Time moves very differently. We saw Abaddon fight Sigismund and abaddon was still in his prime whilst Sigi was a very very old man. There was a salamander loyalist that basically couldn't move anymore who had been trapped in a ship for 10k years (supposedly).

[WrathOfTheLion]

Originally, yes. But after 10000 Years of being hunted down, I'd expect that number to be significantly lower.

The DA are anything if not persistent.

It could be lower, but they're stuck in time. So most of them are not out there, and they fall out at random times. Again, Great Rift would make sense as an anchor.

 

Also, much simpler, the lore straight up says they have legion numbers. It's quite direct about that in the 8E Codex: Dark Angels.

[Ishagu]

This fallen plot must be some of the absolute worst drivel of all the 40k lore. Typically I'm on board with stuff, but this is trash. Ooh look, some traitors, but these ones are scattered around time and they bring shame to the Dark Angels so have to be kept secret, blah, blah. No one cares.

 

The setting time has moved on, technology is advancing, xenos alliances are being forged, the galaxy is split in two. This isn't a big deal anymore. Will Guilliman care the fallen exist? No. The lore needs to move on because the secret DA mission to hunt them at the expense of everything else has now become a meme, and an old one at that.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

I agree, and I think that is what they are going to do. They are already sort of gathering/building alliances for such a conflict. We can assume for example, that the Grey Knights will likely be asked to help handle it. I actually think this will happen relatively soon. There's a lot of pieces being moved around in preparation for it, such as exploring Luther, setting up the DA Legion which gives purpose to the Hexagrammaton beyond that mission, etc.

 

While speaking of qualities of each in the other thread, one thing of importance is the insecurities of Guilliman because of realizing that they are only weapons, tools of war to the Emperor. This is a weakness that Mortarion, etc. can and have attempted to exploit. In the Lion El'Jonson primarch novel, it is explicitly stated that this was something he understood even at the beginning of the Great Crusade, making him a good candidate for someone to shore up Guilliman's morale there. There would be no risk of further wavering on that front.

 

From a tabletop perspective, this could also just be good fun to end it like that. They could basically do something like a black crusade campaign in the Imperium Nihilus, with Marbas, Fallen as a faction, etc., involving DA, maybe BA, GK, guard, Daemons, CSM, etc.

Edited September 9, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Robbienw]

Legion numbers is very nebulous.  Legion numbers varied hugely from the inception of the legions to the start of the heresy.  Legion numbers is anything bigger than a normal chapter size basically.  A task force that was a relatively small part of a legion, but bigger than a chapter, would still have legion numbers, as only a legion would be capable of fielding a force bigger than a chapter.

 

It has been stated in the HH books (I think it was in Angel of Caliban) that there were 30000 new recruits on Caliban, plus a couple of thousand experienced legionaries who were the official garrison of the planet and/or instructors.  So thats a hard upper limit on fallen numbers.  Given the fact that many would have died during in the Fall of Caliban, and many will have been captured in the 10k years since, the current actual 40k number is likely to be much smaller.

[Karhedron]

It has been stated in the HH books (I think it was in Angel of Caliban) that there were 30000 new recruits on Caliban, plus a couple of thousand experienced legionaries who were the official garrison of the planet and/or instructors.  So thats a hard upper limit on fallen numbers.  Given the fact that many would have died during in the Fall of Caliban, and many will have been captured in the 10k years since, the current actual 40k number is likely to be much smaller.

It is only a hard upper limit if we assume that no recruitment has taken place in the intervening time. Most traitor legions have found ways to replace losses, many of their Marines post-date the Heresy. There is no reason to think that the Fallen would be any different.

[Robbienw]

 

It has been stated in the HH books (I think it was in Angel of Caliban) that there were 30000 new recruits on Caliban, plus a couple of thousand experienced legionaries who were the official garrison of the planet and/or instructors.  So thats a hard upper limit on fallen numbers.  Given the fact that many would have died during in the Fall of Caliban, and many will have been captured in the 10k years since, the current actual 40k number is likely to be much smaller.

It is only a hard upper limit if we assume that no recruitment has taken place in the intervening time. Most traitor legions have found ways to replace losses, many of their Marines post-date the Heresy. There is no reason to think that the Fallen would be any different.

 

 

There is.  The fallen aren't a coherent force with any major infrastructure to use to make new space marines.  They were spread through space and time individually or in small groups, and up until Luther escaped had only gathered in small bands.

 

Also technically, any new recruits they somehow manage to make wont be proper fallen, as they would not have been part of the original Dark Angels Legion present on Caliban.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, but they could have made many between Angels of Caliban and the Battle of Caliban years later.

 

All in all, it's however many GW ends up saying when we get there.

 

From the Codex: Dark Angels, it says exactly:

"They speak of a gathering of many of the Fallen, a corrupted Legion reassembling in numbers enough to bring the entire galaxy to heel."

I think that means there is a sizable amount, in the tens of thousands if it can bring the galaxy to heel.

Edited September 9, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[quasistellar]

This fallen plot must be some of the absolute worst drivel of all the 40k lore. Typically I'm on board with stuff, but this is trash. Ooh look, some traitors, but these ones are scattered around time and they bring shame to the Dark Angels so have to be kept secret, blah, blah. No one cares.

 

The setting time has moved on, technology is advancing, xenos alliances are being forged, the galaxy is split in two. This isn't a big deal anymore. Will Guilliman care the fallen exist? No. The lore needs to move on because the secret DA mission to hunt them at the expense of everything else has now become a meme, and an old one at that.

I haven’t read the Dark Angel fallen fluff, but it seems like it will always be relevant to me. In one of the most recent Psychic Awakening stories, new Primaris recruits were sentenced to death for sharing gene seed with a chapter that went rogue. I don’t think the Custodes/Inquisition would take kindly to the idea of the DA having a significant number of renegade members out in the wild. That’s the kind of thing that gets your chapter/legion erased.

[Ishagu]

Not to a legendary, first founding chapter.

 

The Space Wolves literally executed Inquisitors when they didn't like what they were doing.

 

Some chapters are near mythical institutions. The Dark Angels have done battle under the direct command of a Primarch and the Emperor himself during the Crusade. They won't be getting ex-communicated so easily.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

This fallen plot must be some of the absolute worst drivel of all the 40k lore. Typically I'm on board with stuff, but this is trash. Ooh look, some traitors, but these ones are scattered around time and they bring shame to the Dark Angels so have to be kept secret, blah, blah. No one cares.

 

The setting time has moved on, technology is advancing, xenos alliances are being forged, the galaxy is split in two. This isn't a big deal anymore. Will Guilliman care the fallen exist? No. The lore needs to move on because the secret DA mission to hunt them at the expense of everything else has now become a meme, and an old one at that.

I haven’t read the Dark Angel fallen fluff, but it seems like it will always be relevant to me. In one of the most recent Psychic Awakening stories, new Primaris recruits were sentenced to death for sharing gene seed with a chapter that went rogue. I don’t think the Custodes/Inquisition would take kindly to the idea of the DA having a significant number of renegade members out in the wild. That’s the kind of thing that gets your chapter/legion erased.

 

As Ishagu says, this would not be the case, especially if Jonson returned with them.

 

Your statement on what happened in PA is also incorrect. The Custodians ordered them to be arrested and impounded while the situation resolved. They were destroyed in combat after they resisted the order of arrest of a Custodian and entered into open revolt, who has more authority than they do. As a small chapter, they also have no clout. It was meant to be thought provoking, were the Primaris already in contact with the main chapter and also rogue? Were they innocent and the situation unfortunate?

 

The Dark Angels geneseed is something like 10-20% of all chapters. An armed rebellion because someone was trigger happy of 1/5 of existing Astartes would be a disaster for the imperium, which would be damned to annihilation from it.

Edited September 9, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[quasistellar]

I bet the fate of the II and XI legions has the DA believing otherwise. There were several traitor legions who fought with the emperor leading during the crusade, so that’s essentially meaningless.

 

What I’m saying is that the Fallen can’t just be swept under the rug so easily in-universe .  Plus, part of the DA schtick is that they’re stubborn, so just forgetting about the Fallen doesn’t make sense. It’d be like the Iron Hands just suddenly admitting their obsession with bionics is a bad thing and stopping. It’s not gonna happen.

 

 

This fallen plot must be some of the absolute worst drivel of all the 40k lore. Typically I'm on board with stuff, but this is trash. Ooh look, some traitors, but these ones are scattered around time and they bring shame to the Dark Angels so have to be kept secret, blah, blah. No one cares.

The setting time has moved on, technology is advancing, xenos alliances are being forged, the galaxy is split in two. This isn't a big deal anymore. Will Guilliman care the fallen exist? No. The lore needs to move on because the secret DA mission to hunt them at the expense of everything else has now become a meme, and an old one at that.

I haven’t read the Dark Angel fallen fluff, but it seems like it will always be relevant to me. In one of the most recent Psychic Awakening stories, new Primaris recruits were sentenced to death for sharing gene seed with a chapter that went rogue. I don’t think the Custodes/Inquisition would take kindly to the idea of the DA having a significant number of renegade members out in the wild. That’s the kind of thing that gets your chapter/legion erased.

 

As Ishagu says, this would not be the case, especially if Jonson returned with them.

Your statement on what happened in PA is also incorrect. The Custodians ordered them to be arrested and impounded while the situation resolved. They were destroyed in combat after they resisted the order of arrest of a Custodian and entered into open revolt, who has more authority than they do. As a small chapter, they also have no clout. It was meant to be thought provoking, were the Primaris already in contact with the main chapter and also rogue? Were they innocent and the situation unfortunate?

The Dark Angels geneseed is something like 10-20% of all chapters. An armed rebellion because someone was trigger happy of 1/5 of existing Astartes would be a disaster for the imperium, which would be damned to annihilation from it.

 

I did gloss over the PA thing, but we all know what would have happened. Those Primaris were going to disappear one way or another.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't understand your point.

 

The existing lore as of 8E is that the Fallen are gathering in Legion strength under the command of either an escaped Luther or Marbas in the Somnium Stars.

 

What do you think is going to happen there, they will just run around chasing some Fallen tail and it just sits there forever more?

 

As well part of PA is that they break through their natural predilection of secrecy to join and aid the Grey Knights in Ritual of the Damned.

The implication of this is that they will move out of their comfort zone and eventually gather direct allies, notably the Grey Knights and perhaps some other forces.

Edited September 9, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[quasistellar]

I don't understand your point.

 

The existing lore as of 8E is that the Fallen are gathering in Legion strength under the command of either an escaped Luther or Marbas in the Somnium Stars.

 

What do you think is going to happen there, they will just run around chasing some Fallen tail and it just sits there forever more?

 

As well part of PA is that they break through their natural predilection of secrecy to join and aid the Grey Knights in Ritual of the Damned.

 

The implication of this is that they will move out of their comfort zone and eventually gather direct allies, notably the Grey Knights and perhaps some other forces.

my point is that I don’t think the Fallen as a plot device aren’t e going anywhere, like it or not.

Edited September 9, 2020 by quasistellar

[Ishagu]

Actually that's exactly why this lore can now be resolved. They're gathering in number, let's have a big war to wipe them out.

 

I'm suggesting that they finally conclude this plot, not that they sweep it under the rug. Honestly I'll take any old grand battle that wipes them out over a continuation of the storyline and the secret shame that is now a meme... They could conclude it with the return of the Lion.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think they will wipe them out however.

 

The plot of them being secret will probably end, but I think they will bring them in as a playable Chaos legion. Being able to add a 10th CSM legion would be quite an opportunity for the game. This is another reason they may choose that one next, you can bring back a loyalist primarch whilst simultaneously adding a Chaos force to the game.

Either way, regardless of if they all die or not, the secret is out and that plotline ends.

Edited September 9, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So with new supplements dropping is there any chance now for a new LOYALIST Primarch being released ?

[WrathOfTheLion]

It is possible, as the rules do not need to be edited.

 

I don't think it's probable however, and even if it does happen, I think it will be later than the publication of the supplements.

 

Jonson I think is the most likely to be brought back, but I think they're going to explore more of the setup with the Luther novel, maybe having Luther in a HH Black Book, etc. first, then circle that back into 40k after having a better setup of the plot, the motivations, etc.

 

We can see all sorts of setup starting to show up for that one I think, but I still think there's more to do before they end up pulling a trigger on it.

 

On the 40k side, I think they're going to explore more with RG in the Dawn of Fire series first. If they can get about 3 of those a year, then maybe in two or three years we'll near the end and that could be part of the 'surprise' of the ending

 

To repost, as I guess it isn't a derailing.

Edited October 26, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion