Remember Columnus: Meta Conversation vs Iron Hands

[Dracos]

Been a while since we dived into a particular tactical discussion and thought we could talk a bit about the current meta and our role in it and against it. Starting with obviously ... What to do about the Iron Hands?

 

First at Istvaan, later at the Battle of Columnus and their latest vileness .... their attack against our Brother Raptors on the world of LVO.2.02.0 ;)

 

 

I build take all-comers list as the meta is bound to change very 6 months it seems lately. That said, I won’t be disinclined to swap out an HQ or occasional unit to adjust to the shifting meta as it evolves. I am about 3/4 done with my basic 2k list and I have started to look toward playing in a few tournament in the spring and summer to get ready for AdeptiCon21 next year. Currently I’m looking for that “unit” that confounds the Iron Hands and can put the edge on an armies blade that will counter the Sons of Ferrus.

 

So far I’m thinking Eliminators are a key unit with the idea of popping their HQ castle bubbles. Any other thoughts?

 

 

 

PS: Iron Hands, take this discussion as the compliment it’s meant to be :) Their will be NO whining about nerfing the IH Codex. Let’s make it a productive discussion on ways to counter this beast. We can’t count on GW doing it for us via the FAQ and nor should we. The Sons of Corax are better than that.

[MajorNese]

Countering the HQs seems one thing, but Eliminators are quite easy to kill unless you have bigger guns to distract from them. IH favorites seem to be at least one Levi, contemptor mortis dreads, RepEx and TFCs, all of which can take down T4 2W 1+ armour quite quickly - especially when said unit screams "I will kill your nice buff dudes". Untargetable character based snipers like Ex Tenebris should work better in that regard, especially since many people replace Feirros with cheaper and less resilient MotF techmarines (also every successor chapter has to).

 

IH have to be stopped from shooting at all cost, and outright killing them to do so is not that easy.

To lock them in CC, one must first overcome Overwatch, which is quite an issue against the big guns hitting on 5+. On my recent game I was glad my opponent sprinkled in some characters and infantry for an easy charge, to consolidate into the big guns, but one cannot rely on the opponent to make such a mistake. So the No Overwatch trait might be a game-changer. Infiltrators strat too, to make first turn charges if going first/seizing.

 

An issue will be AT though. Especially primaris don't offer much there, so cracking half a dozen T7/8 2+/4++ bricks will be a challenge. Which is why the LVO Raptors had every single Assault Centurion they could get.

 

Counter deployment via Deep Strike also keeps units safe in case they don't get where they need to before the opponent starts shooting. With the added benefit of dragging apart the buff bubbles from behind. A clever IH player would have some sort of counter charge unit, but the large vehicle footprint and low range for Ironstone/repairs means that it will be cumbersome to get around that blob. And flexible deployment is the one thing we can do except for killing characters, so leveraging that will be crucial.

Edited February 6, 2020 by MajorNese

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Fun topic!

 

While I think the Leviathan/martyrdom/apoth/feirros combo is very strong (and likely to get nerfed), I think what might be an easier approach is trying to kill infantry more effectively to reduce the list's ability to score points

 

Here's the "brohammer" IH list in question:

 

+++ Richard’s LVO List – 10 CP, 2,000 pts +++

 

Iron Hands Battalion Detachment (598 pts, +5 CP)

 

HQ: Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought w/Twin Lascannon, CCW, Storm Bolter

HQ: Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought w/Twin Lascannon, CCW, Storm Bolter

 

Troops: Intercessors (x5) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Chainsword

Troops: Intercessors (x5) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Chainsword

Troops: Intercessors (x5) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Power Fist

 

Iron Hands Battalion Detachment (698 pts, +3 CP)

Specialist Detachment: Indomitus Crusaders

 

HQ: Iron Father Feirros

HQ: Primaris Lieutenant w/Power Sword

 

Troops: Intercessors (x10) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Thunder Hammer

Troops: Intercessors (x10) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Power Fist

Troops: Intercessors (x5) w/Stalker Bolt Rifle, Sgt. Power Fist

 

Elites: Primaris Apothecary, Stratagem: Chief Apothecary (-1 CP)

 

Iron Hands Spearhead Detachment (704 pts, +1 CP)

 

HQ: Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought w/Twin Lascannon, CCW, Storm Bolter

 

HS: Eliminator Squad x3 w/Bolt Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

HS: Eliminator Squad x3 w/Bolt Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

HS: Eliminator Squad x3 w/Bolt Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

HS: Relic Leviathan Dreadnought w/2x Storm cannon Array, 3x Hunter-Killer Missile, 2x Heavy Flamer, WARLORD

 

So, to recap, things I think should be ignored as they are likely to get nerfed/changed:

 

1. Triple Untargetable Chaplain Dreads
2. Martyrdom/Character Leviathan/Apothecary/Feirros/Stacking FNP

Things I think wont change that are likely to stay strong and see more of:

 

40+ Intercessors (Bolt Rifle and Stalker varieties). With a 6+ FNP (Buffable to 5+), working towards maximizing D2 attacks and a higher volume of Ap -1/-2/-3 seems more effective.

 

Things (in general) I expect to stay strong (and likely unchanged) and as a result will continue to be good choices:

1. 3x3 Eliminators
2. TFCs (But possibly not Tremor Shells/Double Shot)
3. Smash Caps

Things I think may be inherently devalued in a meta against large contingents of IH players:

1. Scouts as troops
2. Infiltrators at the premium they are priced at
3. Any sort of armor what so ever (Target denial for those Twin LC and Stormcannons)

As always, it comes to a question of what changes do you make that help against the IH match-up that will punish you in other match-ups. Space Marines may make up 50%+ of the field at RTTs and above, and of those, 50%+ may be Iron Hands, but that still leaves half the field as everything else to consider.

 

Potential diamonds in the rough to consider:

1. Plasma (Hellblasters, Inceptors)
2. Teeth of Terra Captain
3. More Stalker Bolters/Primaris Troops

[Dracos]

SCV @ totally agree with you categories is what to ignore, what needs attention, and the potential diamond units. Almost makes me sad I traded away my Hellblasters ... but not enough to make more. :)

 

The more I look and start to actually play with them the bigger fan I’m becoming on my 2 x5 units of Stalkers. I’d double that but then the points would have to come from somewhere. Right now the only thing I’d be willing to swap out would be the (Auto?) Bolt Rifles.

 

... and this is the list that almost best that list ... but didn’t

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines)

**Chapter Selection**: Long-range Marksmen, Master Artisans, Raptors, Raven Guard Successor + HQ +

Captain: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Chaplain: 1. Litany of Faith, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle . 9x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 9x Sniper rifle

+ Elites +

Centurion Assault Squad

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter . . Flamers: 2x Flamer

Centurion Assault Squad

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter . . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter . . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter . . Flamers: 2x Flamer

+ Heavy Support +

Centurion Devastator Squad

. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter

. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter

. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter

. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter

. Centurion Sergeant: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter

Thunderfire Cannon

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines)

**Chapter Selection**: Long-range Marksmen, Master Artisans, Raptors, Raven Guard Successor

+ HQ +

Lias Issodon

Primaris Lieutenants

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

+ Troops +

Infiltrator Squad: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant Infiltrator Squad: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Thunder hammer

++ Total: [115 PL, 1,998pts] ++

 

PS: I really hope they get Brad. Chester on at least a few podcast. I’d like to hear his breakdown on what went right, what went wrong, and what he would change.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Dracos

[MajorNese]

When it comes down to killing the Intercessors, not the big bricks, it might be a suitable target for Suppressors. They're 2D AP-3 in first round, have enough range to stay further back than most IH stuff can shoot, and their niche ability to shut down overwatch would get a lot of mileage on IH especially. Plus their mobility means they can stay out of LoS until their turn.

 

Except for that - I know that I repeat myself on this a lot - deep striking Inceptors. Invincible until drop, and dozens of S5 AP-2 shots is perfect to shred T4 3+ models. Only 1D, but unit price and high RoF will make it work. Being T5 3W themselves, IH stalker bolters only wound them on a 5+ and require two unsaved shots to kill a model, so things could be worse.

 

 

To tank some of the AT and draw lascannon/stormcannon fire away from more important infantry (that would just get mulched) - Tarantula sentry guns with twin heavy bolter.

Only 37ppm for T5 4W, and a footprint that will mean IH can't just walk around them. A unit of 3 requires an entire levi's shooting phase (both stormcannons) to clear on average, so 3 units of 3 would soak up any AT for roughly two rounds, and still only cost 333p. And those also contribute 54 HB shots that always target the nearest infantry unit, though they would benefit a lot from Shrike (due to BS4+).

 

I've used these extensively on some tournaments. Worked wonders to distract heavier guns, plug deep strike gaps and throwing down lead. Also quite a nice roadblock for CC units - anything within 1" of these will still be targetable as if they were not. Even the Tarantula can still shoot. I've had more than one opponent weather the buckets of dice during overwatch to protect a unit in CC with a unit that can't fall back, only to get shot by everything around during my turn.

[Dracos]

I’m totally sold on the Inceptors myself. Suppressors would be a good second for similar mission objectives and the range is nice, but I think I prefer the increased durability.

 

I have a couple of Tarantulas (assault cannons) need to paint the heavy bolter sponsons. I’ll give them a try in a 1000 point game in couple weeks and see how they do. I’m big believer in building double battalions and not sure what would have to go in the list to afford them.