Hellbrutes Now Worth It?

[jgascoine011]

Was looking at a world eaters army and looking at some fire support.

 

Hellbrutes with twin auto-cannons are looking not too bad.

 

For 80pts you get T7, W8 and a 8 S7 AP-1 D2 shots with a 48" range

With fire frenzy thats looking at 16 shots, and you have the additional benefit of getting crazed go off.

 

While they may struggle with High Toughness and Saves such as Land Raiders, Disco Lords and Knights, these are actually things that can be killed by world eaters other units (Bezerkers, Red Butchers, Maulerfiends etc). They are also pretty terrible vs Salamanders but i find playing them pretty rare.

What they are pretty good against is Primaris Marines, Light Tanks and Dealing with chaff...something that  i am finding more prominant now

 

What are peoples thoughts on Hellbrutes now with the points drop

[Special Officer Doofy]

Can regular helbrutes even take twin autocannons, let alone two? What codex are you looking at?

[jgascoine011]

Well sorry 2 Reaper Autocannons

 

Edit: Ah sorry just realised they could only take one

Edited February 6, 2020 by jgascoine011

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No, they're not. Reapers are shorter range and less damage.

[jgascoine011]

No, they're not. Reapers are shorter range and less damage.

Ahh right, yea not paying any attention lol

Oh well they still kinda suck then

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, think the cheapest load out is 90 points (reaper and fist). It’s fun, but I doubt it’s competitive

[WarriorFish]

My CSM are Slaaneshi, but have similar issues in that being focused on stabby-stabby in 8th can be hard going. My Helbrute takes a TLLC to offer some much needed long range AT and has done well. He doesn't break the bank and with the Stratagem to fire twice can really swing things if you can line up a good shot. However as a long time Dreadnut (long before IH became "cool") they do best in number as they're not terribly durable. I've got a second awaiting assembly

 

I've also got a Contemptor plus another awaiting work, I figured this would be a good core for any list and provide vital heavy hitting. Add in DCCWs to swing around in melee and they fit in neatly. I expect this to be the same for Khornate CSM

 

Being able to benefit from the Legion Trait helps them feel more like they fit the theme too. Maybe not the most competitive of things, but that describes most of the codex anyway ;)

[Paturabo]

If you're looking for fire support a helbrute's limited options are severely lacking. For your points an obliterator might be a better, mid-field fire support. They're smaller, can easily benefit from cover because they're an infantry model, and despite having half the wounds of a helbrute tend to last longer thanks to their 2+ 5++ saves. Also their fleshmetal guns at worst are a assault 6 reaper autocannon.

 

On the flipside, if you want to dedicate 100ish points to a distraction that you don't mind getting shot of the board, a hellbrute with a power scourge and twin heavy bolter is fun. March it up the board while taking pot shots at your opponent, maybe alongside something more important, and if it survives to the Fight Phase the scourge will tear most infantry. If you wanna spend a little on a second power scourge you're getting 10 (12 on the charge for World Eaters) strength 8, AP -2, damage 2 attacks that don't degrade and will punish your opponent if they don't shoot it off the board soon enough.

 

If you're dead set on a dreadnought for fire support take a contemptor.

[BrainFireBob]

1k Sons, Cult of Prophecy with their relic. 3 brutes, ML, twin las, each can reroll either a hit or damage roll, and the Sorc can heal them. Vanguard, termie armor, 480 points.

[Aothaine]

Was looking at a world eaters army and looking at some fire support.

 

Are you sure you're a World Eaters player? What is this fire support nonsense? Give them double flamers and two fisty-cuffs and run them into your enemy! :D

[Cheex]

 

Was looking at a world eaters army and looking at some fire support.

 

Are you sure you're a World Eaters player? What is this fire support nonsense? Give them double flamers and two fisty-cuffs and run them into your enemy!

 

 

To hel with fists; give them double scourges! More attacks = more blood!

[Aothaine]

 

 

To hel with fists; give them double scourges! More attacks = more blood!

 

 

Indeed! Depends if you want more anti-armor or anti-infantry. :D

[jgascoine011]

 

 

Was looking at a world eaters army and looking at some fire support.

Are you sure you're a World Eaters player? What is this fire support nonsense? Give them double flamers and two fisty-cuffs and run them into your enemy! :D

There are a number of problems I am finding with world eaters.

Tearing up tanks, knights etc is not one of them lol.

Chaff can really bog down the WE and without guns to clear them you rely on the combat units to do it, giving your opponent another chance to shoot them.

Also transports are a pain to deal with, especially things like dark elder who can just stay away from you all game.

That’s why I was thinking 3 dreads with Autocannons could massively help out.

Thinking about changing the dreads to contemptors and dropping the dark apostle. With the way he works now he is kind of pointless

[MegaVolt87]

If you can take out heavy stuff in melee as AT, then get 2-3 AC + HB pred's to clear out screens then would work.

[Aothaine]

I agree. Save the Helbrutes for melee. If you want to clear chaff grab 2-3 dakka predators, autocannon turret and two heavy bolter sponsons. :D

 

Also, your berserkers should have bolt pistols and chain axes. They really don't need that one chain sword attack anymore imho. 

[Cheex]

Also, your berserkers should have bolt pistols and chain axes. They really don't need that one chain sword attack anymore imho. 

 

Nah, the number of times I've finished off the last couple of enemies with those chainswords has been amazing. And with those, there's no chance the enemy will pull off the closest models to increase my required charge distance.

 

There have been a few times where I wished I had pistols - mainly so I could shoot one target and then charge another - but those extra chainsword attacks have been invaluable for me.

[dice4thedicegod]

Another thing about chainswords, I think the new stratagem that gives an additional -1 ap to melee attacks is great with our axe plus sword berserkers. Makes the chainsword 50% better against 3+ save armor.

[Gederas]

Also, your berserkers should have bolt pistols and chain axes. They really don't need that one chain sword attack anymore imho. 

Nah, the number of times I've finished off the last couple of enemies with those chainswords has been amazing. And with those, there's no chance the enemy will pull off the closest models to increase my required charge distance.

 

There have been a few times where I wished I had pistols - mainly so I could shoot one target and then charge another - but those extra chainsword attacks have been invaluable for me.

Exactly. Bolt Pistols on Berzerkers is a blasphemy against Khorne because it makes them LESS efficient in melee. Majorly, since the Bolt Pistol is less Strength than their own Strength.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Also, your berserkers should have bolt pistols and chain axes. They really don't need that one chain sword attack anymore imho.

 

Nah, the number of times I've finished off the last couple of enemies with those chainswords has been amazing. And with those, there's no chance the enemy will pull off the closest models to increase my required charge distance.

 

There have been a few times where I wished I had pistols - mainly so I could shoot one target and then charge another - but those extra chainsword attacks have been invaluable for me.

Exactly. Bolt Pistols on Berzerkers is a blasphemy against Khorne because it makes them LESS efficient in melee. Majorly, since the Bolt Pistol is less Strength than their own Strength.

Pistol wounds can be stacked on closer enemy model's, then you might not br in charge range as a result. Pistol shots not worth it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Gentle reminder: this is a thread about Helbrutes, not the comparative value of Berzerker weapon options.

[Aothaine]

I'm solidly in the field that Helbrutes are awesome and that they should be melee focused in a World Eater's army. There are plenty of other ways to get chaff clearing with World Eaters imho.

[Irate Khornate]

My WE helbrutes perform fairly well with a fist/scourge build to deal with both infantry and tanks. They're cheap, durable, and absolutely devastating when they crash in. I leave my long range AT to my twin las contemptors in the back being babysat by a lord. Blasphemy it may be but it saturates the board with targets far and close. My real chaff clearers are pretty much my berserkers. Field them in squads of 8 with banner, axe/sword and the champ with a fist/axe.

 

But back to the main point, yeah they are worth it, but honestly not as a fire support. They perform much better in melee.

[Iron_Within]

If you're wanting to go for a shooty dread then yes Havocs and Obliterators are better. However in a full gunline Hellbrutes have their place.

With an Iron Warriors list with Seige Breaker Warlord trait, Havocs and Vehicles (not obliterators) get to re-roll 1's to wound, that gives Hellbrutes options in shooting.

 

I personally always give them a Lascannon/Fist, there are enough deep striking threats that having a big beefy boy with a fist in the back line has worth. In some lists I've had 3 Havocs/3 Las/Fist Brutes and when the deep strikers turn up they're swarmed by defensive Cultists and Hellbrutes and that can lay in a hurt.

 

It's not for a Tourney competitive appropriate but in standard play to semi competitive they are decent.

In ultra competitive play CSM have only a few options that work.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'll say this for Helbrutes: as part of a gunline that includes vehicles, they provide a points-inexpensive means of creating vehicle saturation. The meta these days is filled with armies that bring enough guns to kill a Knight, so if you have armor in your list you'd better have a LOT if you want it all to survive to see Round 3.

[Zuvassin]

Are there any synergies between the Helbrute and the (FW) dread types (ie helforged Contemptor, Leviathan, or Deredeo)?

 

I'm just starting Night Lords, and I love both dreads in general and the three particular NL sculpts ForgeWorld has done for the Leviathan, Contemptor, and (oop) basic helbrute/dread. Not sure how plausible it is to field all three in the same force, but would love any tips or suggestions if there's ways of using them together.