Arming AT Knights

[Guest]

I have 18 Baby Knights

 

3 Avenger+CCW

3 Battle+CCW

3 Thermal+CCW

3 2xCCW+Melta+Missiles

 

 

Its the last 6 I wonder.

 

It is worth doing 3 with Battle Cannons and Avenger Cannons?

 

Leaving me 3 spare which I can do as Thermal Cannons.

 

Overall it leaves me the ability to form a Household but mix and match.

[Mendi Warrior]

You can also retain maximum flexibility by using 1x1mm magnets for the weapon - elbow joint, if you are crazy like me

[Taxidermied]

Double guns always seem like a trap choice to me. Your best weapons are the cc ones so you want to be close. The firepower is just extra gravy to pour over a damaged section to finish targets off.

 

Missive pods are quite an attractive choice on avenger carries as it gives them a weapon to contribute to shield stripping, but they’re exspensive.

 

If you’re running a full knights list then things change due to their combined strike order. A big unit of avengers can start wrecking face at range unlike when they are a support banner to a maniple.

 

Personally I’d double up on some of the shooting load outs you already have (6 knights instead of 3, not double guns on them) so you can try running a big dakka block in a knight list. Probably not the thermal cannons as I’d much rather the six individual shots than banking on one shot at a higher strength. Don’t forget that rocket pods and Melta guns don’t have to match across a full banner.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Taxidermied

[Fajita Fan]

Only problem with dual gun knights in a household is that only one gun can be used in a combined strike. The Gatling gun is the same 5 points as a CCW but does less damage in melee. Thermal/Gatling would make more sense, do a combined strike with the gatlings one turn against shields then follow up with individual thermals the next turn if the shields stay down but that’s 1) situational and 2) the CCW will still do a lot of damage inside a shield bubble.

 

Now that the the math hammer is out there to show volcano and melta blasts are good against knights I’m not sure if Questoris knights are in the best position to trade shots with titans. Wild speculation: the psi-titan gun is going to mess up knights, if they follow the fluff of what that gun does it may be pretty scary against clumped knights.

 

That brings me to what I perceive to be the weakest part: lance coherency. Moving a 6 knight banner within a 3 banner lance is a lot of models needing to stay close. I’m looking for battle reports of household lists but depending on terrain it could be become really difficult getting that many 40mm bases around the table.

[schoon]

Double guns always seem like a trap choice to me. Your best weapons are the cc ones so you want to be close. The firepower is just extra gravy to pour over a damaged section to finish targets off.

It can be a good choice for stripping shields on the approach, as well as absorbing casualties, thus allowing your CCW Banner to engage undamaged.

 

I like one double-BC Banner for this use.

[Noserenda]

Personally I'd avoid avengers, they're handy for shields but Knights do best inside a targets shields, avoid hanging around trying to outshoot titans and get up close where literally every other weapon is better.

 

Double melee Knights are also a little cheaper which is good given how fragile they are!

[schoon]

Double melee Knights are also a little cheaper which is good given how fragile they are!

If you've got a table with good terrain density, these can work, but on more open tables I've found these become primary targets.

[Guest]

I think I will still do them the Avenger/Battle Cannon :) Rule of cool etc.

[DuskRaider]

I'd bring each ranged Banner up to 4 and then dump the last 3 into the CC Banner.

[Zayneth]

I don't understand why your knights are in "coherency". lances operate like squadrons and squadrons can start on opposite ends of the deployment zone and get further apart while still being a squadron. the only drawback to a lance is the activation economy I believe.

 

edit: apparently the quote function is far too advanced for my simple brain and copy/paste wont work lol. this was in response to fajita fan's post T_T

Edited February 18, 2020 by Zayneth

[Guest]

Well I decided I will be doing 3x6 of each Weapon with 3 Rockets in each.

 

Then 6 CCW's+Rockets+Meltagun. and 6 with BC and AC.

[Mandragola]

Personally I’d very strongly recommend taking one gun and one ccw on all questoris knights.

 

Knights do a lot of their damage on the charge, but a second ccw is no help in that situation. Each model attacks with one weapon.

 

In the combat phase you pool all the dice for all the knights with one weapon and roll them as a single attack. This means that you’ll generally be making them all against a fresh, undamaged location - unless you charged and did a lot of damage. It’s very often better to have a second kind of weapon to attack with after some damage has been done and there’s +1 or 2 on to damage the location, rather than do all your attacks against maximum armour. And of course melee attacks only work within 2”, which can be a pretty big problem.

 

This also means that a knight with two guns is a total waste of space. Knights trying to shoot titans dead is basically a joke in this game. Only the thermal cannon can even damage a Warlord and a BC can barely hurt a Reaver. There’s no point at all in shooting their shields down when you can’t damage their armour anyway. Just walk inside the shields and hit them. And the coordinated strike order only works for one weapon. Do yourself a favour and forget double-gun questoris, because your opponent certainly will.

 

On Sunday I had a Warlord killed by Avenger gatling fire. Only one of the knights managed to charge, but it did enough damage (including some earlier hits) to the titan’s body to push it into the +3 damage bracket and knock the shields down. That let the avengers cause the last two crits and kill the engine.

[Fajita Fan]

I don't understand why your knights are in "coherency". lances operate like squadrons and squadrons can start on opposite ends of the deployment zone and get further apart while still being a squadron. the only drawback to a lance is the activation economy I believe.

 

edit: apparently the quote function is far too advanced for my simple brain and copy/paste wont work lol. this was in response to fajita fan's post T_T

Because knights within a banner must be within 3” coherency and banners within a lance must be within 6” coherency:

 

“ When all of the Banners within a Lance have finished moving, at least one Knight from each Banner must be within 6" of a Knight that is within another Banner that forms part of the same Lance - this is called Lance coherency. If anything causes a Banner to become separated from its Lance, it must re-establish coherency the next time it moves.”

 

That means a lance of 3 banners of 3 Questoris knights has to form a chain of nine 40mm bases which can be harder depending on your table setup. This is why I’m trying to avoid making any terrain pieces bigger than, say, 5.5” on a side so that knight lances can go “through” them instead of having to squeeze around one side (aka Prime Volcano Target Opportunity).

 

Also if you mix Cerastus lancers with Questoris you’re not going to get their full speed advantage but they have a better command stat so that’s probably worth the trade off.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Fajita Fan

[Guest]

Well due to Mandragola ruining my fun :P

 

I will do 6 of each gun.

 

Thinking 3 Rockets per 6, how many Meltaguns for each 6?

 

I will use my other Knights for Makabius I think.

[schoon]

Personally I’d very strongly recommend taking one gun and one ccw on all questoris knights.

<snip>

Good insights. Thank-you.

[Mandragola]

Well due to Mandragola ruining my fun

Thanks, that makes it all feel worthwhile!

 

To be honest this doesn’t come from my own experience, but from talking to Rhu James at a couple of events. I’ve had the chance to play against his incredible-looking knight army a couple of times, and alongside it once in a big game.

 

The three questoris guns actually function very differently. Avengers have a ludicrous number of shots and can get a lot of strength when on coordinated fire. But then they’re not on charge orders. Thermal cannons have good strength but bad range, accuracy and number of shots.

 

In some ways battlecannons are the best all-rounders as they can do work without orders (or while the banner has charge orders) and can also knock down shields and stuff. They’re perfect for firing at damaged locations thanks to +1 to hit at close range and the ordnance rule, which means they’ll very often do damage if they do hit.

 

Orders are a really big deal for knights. You get a lot of stratagems so it’s often worth bringing a command bunker. This can help you get a lance moving on turn 1 if you fail a first stride order, and that can save a game that would otherwise have been lost.

[Guest]

 

Well due to Mandragola ruining my fun

Thanks, that makes it all feel worthwhile!

.

 

It makes sense I suppose I was just going for rule of cool.

[Mandragola]

I wasn’t serious. I don’t actually come on here to spoil people’s fun.

 

My advice is based on what I think works best. There’s no guarantee I’m right and anyway they’re your models. The most important thing is that you’re happy with them - not that I am.

 

Double melee questoris work reasonably well. I’ve just seen someone talking about a banner with avengers and battlecannons, which might work. If we get fair rules for Acastus then it might make sense to use them and then knocking shields down makes sense.

[Guest]

I wasn’t serious. I don’t actually come on here to spoil people’s fun.

 

My advice is based on what I think works best. There’s no guarantee I’m right and anyway they’re your models. The most important thing is that you’re happy with them - not that I am.

 

Double melee questoris work reasonably well. I’ve just seen someone talking about a banner with avengers and battlecannons, which might work. If we get fair rules for Acastus then it might make sense to use them and then knocking shields down makes sense.

I never thought for a minute you were

 

I get it from the pov on activations you fire one gun so makes sense not to have 2... Rule of cool vs whats good don't always work.

 

To be fair 3x6 Knights with each having 3 Rockets and 3 Meltaguns each seems the best option I can mix outside a Household.

 

And with the 9 Knights spare I have I can start my Traitor knights.

 

i don't get extra attacks in melee for 2xCCWs...

Edited February 20, 2020 by Wolf Guard Einar

[Mandragola]

You do get extra attacks for the second ccw in the combat phase, just not on the charge. When charging you get to attack with one weapon. It’s the same for dual-ccw titans, except that their weapons do attack separately in the combat phase.

 

Knights have that even worse deal of doing all their attacks together, which takes away the benefit of causing structural damage. But to be fair the benefit isn’t huge from that anyway, as ccws already have good strength. The best case scenario is probably having the ccws take the structure to +2, then finishing things off with battlecannons that are now as strong as ccws but with twice as many attacks.

 

That’s not likely to happen, but it’s not the only benefit guns bring. You can knock down shields and occasionally even shoot a titan dead with them at a distance, say if another banner has left one on its last legs. But only if you’ve got them!

 

On the Facebook group there’s a guy called Willard who is a great player, and often disagrees with me. He’s running a large banner with battlecannons and gatlings. I suppose that might work well with coordinated strikes, where you use the battlecannons to drop shields or fire at where the avengers made a hole.

 

Another banner he suggests is freeblades with double battlecannon, except for giving the Baron a single CCW. This banner can shoot shields off things but is still a charge threat because of that one ccw. This banner isn’t legal in a lance but it works well as a freeblade, especially as it does’t really need orders to fire those BCs.

 

As ever in AT the best approach may be to magnetise. That’s what I’ve done with my questoris’ arms. It’s a tight fit but a 2x1 magnet can be made to work in the joint between the arm and weapon. Then you just have to make sure you don’t lose the things!

[Guest]

Well I might do 3 with CCWs/Melta/Rockets just for fun.

 

I am not too worried about magnetising Knights...

 

My real goal should be the 3x6 of each for a strong Holdhouse set.

[Mandragola]

I agree with going for 3x6. Ive got 18 questoris too, with that goal in mind... one day.

[Fajita Fan]

Another banner he suggests is freeblades with double battlecannon, except for giving the Baron a single CCW. This banner can shoot shields off things but is still a charge threat because of that one ccw. This banner isn’t legal in a lance but it works well as a freeblade, especially as it does’t really need orders to fire those BCs.

LOL this is almost exactly the freeblade idea I hinted at trying awhile back that I didn’t know if people would like the style.

 

This is a serious looking game but I love something a little frivolous from time to time. I was going to make a pirate freeblade banner with bronze cannons and a leader with a peg leg and hook arm, the goal was to do something like that. One model for the CCW charge and some guns for maybe hitting a wounded section - I had points left over and wanted a freeblade banner for another activation.

 

Originally when making household lists I made all of my banners minimum sized so I could get more activations but with 1 model Acastus banners that frees up activations so I could run larger banners in two lances instead of trying to squeeze in 3 lances.