Tempestus Scions - New Rules Discussion

[zero88]

The extra WL trait CP is going to be the mandatory Grand Strategist slot, at least now you will see other WL traits being used BESIDES that one

[NatBrannigan]

Taurox Primes, worth it now?

 

A Missle Launcher / Autocannon Taurox costs as much as a Battle Tank but now if it can make use of some of the Scions Doctrines, worth it as a pure gun platform? Thinking of putting one in my list in place of some Hellhounds.

 

I was also musing about a Tempestor Prime with the warlord trait and relic in the backfield supporting Taroxes (Tauroxen?). That would give you a 6" bubble of reroll 1's to hit and 5++ Invulnerable to put a few Taurox in. All with -1AP as well. That sounds nasty to me!

[sairence]

I think if you want to run with Taurox Primes you have to go for saturation and need other stuff to push up aggressively to take pressure off of them. If they can sit back and rain missiles and ACs they can do nice work.

 

For close range support you probably won't need as many, but then you probably have to make use of their transport cap to keep your troops safe on the advance. Just as close range gunboats I don't seem them working too well.

[jaxom]

Part of the Taurox Prime question is whether it’s a pure MT army or if there are other detachments. Did anyone/does anyone either run pure MT now or plan on it? I use them as the hammer to my Cadian detachment’s anvil.

[GrinNfool]

Part of the Taurox Prime question is whether it’s a pure MT army or if there are other detachments. Did anyone/does anyone either run pure MT now or plan on it? I use them as the hammer to my Cadian detachment’s anvil.

I have traditionally ran them as a supporting detachment to my deathwatch or admech but with everything getting mono faction bonuses (except guard/scions amusingly enough) I will probably have to start running them on their own or with actual guard.  To that end I ran a test game with 1462 points of scions and 538 of guard.  Double scion batt 1 kappic 1 dragons and a supreme command of 3 tank commanders to support my 4 taurox primes and a valk.  16 plasma 4 meltas 8 volley guns on the scions themselves.  Worked really well the kappic were all on the table and their hitting on 2s + handling the volleyguns worked a treat, very scary firepower.  Dragons all were deepstrike and handled all my plasma.  I think its perfectly viable now to run scions as the main part of guard, that said because their main firepower is a taurox prime, being able to ally in something a bit heavier is very beneficial to them.

Edited February 12, 2020 by GrinNfool

[KGatch113]

Looking at the new rules. 

Iotan Dragons....great doctrine, ok Stratagem, decent WLT. You drop down and blast something with a plasma or melta squad, and then follow up with 10 of these guys. You use the strat that adds +1 Strength and then +1 to wound, and order them to FRFSRF. That's 40 shots at Str 4 with +1 to wound. 

Jakals...Count 1 killed model for 2 for morale purposes. Could be great, but too many units ignore this. Great Warlord Trait...redeploy 3 units. Ok Strat -1 to be hit on 1 unit.

Thetoid Eagles...half Range, a 6=+1 hit. WLT makes a 6 have an ap of -4. and the Strat is...make a Taurox reroll hits within 12 inches. 

Kappic Eagles...move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty, +1 to hit when disembarking. WLT is 24 inches with a Vox, measure from the hull of a transport. Strat....If a Kappic Eagle unit destroys an enemy model, and is the closest visible unit, enemy units are -1 to hit other units.

Lambdan Lions...AP is -1 for weapons. WLT is reroll 1's within 6, and the strat allows a wound roll of 6 to add a mortal wound. And the best relic, the 5++ area generator.

Finally the Iotan Gorgons...6 generates +1 hit for closest enemy unit. WLT causes enemy psykers to Perils on double 6's within 24. The Strat allows you to deepstrike within 5 inches. 

So......what I am looking for is what role units would play, synergy between doctrines, WLT and strats, and overall effectiveness. I mathhammered the Kappic Eagles vs the Iotan Dragons and the base double tap of hotshot lasguns > then the +1, no penalty to hit volleyguns of the Eagles. The Kappic Eagles strat is not very good. 

The Thetoid Eagles doctrine requires you to somehow get into half range with hot shot lasguns to work. That's a zinger. 

So the Lions,jakals and Gorgonnes....Jakals have a great strat, but the doctrine I think is too easy to counter. It does not help the efficiency of killing enemy units. 

The Lions overall have 3 nice bonuses. The Gorgonnes have IMHO the best strat, being able to come down and melta something...plus a possible bonus to hit with a 6, and the possibility of hurting a psyker. But overall not very consistent. 

So for me the choices will be between the Dragons, Lions and Gorgonnes. 

[Bluflash]

When looking at the Kappic Eagles strat, remember you can spend a CP to drop your boys 5" from the enemy, with no restriction on charging after the drop.
So drop in front of a non-melee capable target, plasma something up to 7" behind it and pop the strat, then charge and wrap a target. 

 

If in the open, you have applied a -1 to hit against pretty much your entire army. Then on your turn, just fall back and "get back in the fight" to kill again, or fall back into your transport to drop strike again on turn 3.

 

If your hitting screen, that +1 on the drop will apply to melee attacks as well. Consider putting a priest in one of the open seats in your Valk as well if you want extra swings.

[GrinNfool]

...

Iotan Dragons....great doctrine, ok Stratagem, decent WLT. You drop down and blast something with a plasma or melta squad, and then follow up with 10 of these guys. You use the strat that adds +1 Strength and then +1 to wound, and order them to FRFSRF. That's 40 shots at Str 4 with +1 to wound. 

...

So......what I am looking for is what role units would play, synergy between doctrines, WLT and strats, and overall effectiveness. I mathhammered the Kappic Eagles vs the Iotan Dragons and the base double tap of hotshot lasguns > then the +1, no penalty to hit volleyguns of the Eagles. The Kappic Eagles strat is not very good. 

 

The Thetoid Eagles doctrine requires you to somehow get into half range with hot shot lasguns to work. That's a zinger. 

 

So the Lions,jakals and Gorgonnes....Jakals have a great strat, but the doctrine I think is too easy to counter. It does not help the efficiency of killing enemy units. 

 

The Lions overall have 3 nice bonuses. The Gorgonnes have IMHO the best strat, being able to come down and melta something...plus a possible bonus to hit with a 6, and the possibility of hurting a psyker. But overall not very consistent. 

 

So for me the choices will be between the Dragons, Lions and Gorgonnes. 

Minor adjustment here the Dragons would be 36 shots with FRSRF @ 12 not 40 sgt can't take a hotshot lasgun.  Think that also throws your math off as vs MEQ 4 volleyguns getting out of a vehicle for kappic with 5 normal guns not double tapping and without orders actually outperforms (very slightly) the 36 shots from dragons that require an order.  Ya the barebones squad is 28 points cheaper, but needing an order we can basically negate the cost difference as half a tempestor prime.  Though I think this is comparing apples and oranges IMHO, as dragons are the undisputed winner of a deepsriking scion force IMO.  Kappic compares more reasonably vs lions as both want to be the scion force on the table, which again I will say comes down to if you spam taurox primes or like valks too as to which is better.  Gorgonnes after considering all of this more over the weekend just feel very 1 trick to me going for 2 melta drops on turn 2 and 3, that isn't to say its bad, I think it actually could work very well if you are playing a larger guard force and using a limited scion force as a scalpel, but as far as a larger scion force I don't think they quite hit the high strength of Lions, Dragons, or Kappic eagles.  Once again, I think most of the scion regiments have a place, and you can't make a bad choice, just some choices are better than others depending on your situation, and the role, which is pretty good design honestly.

[KGatch113]

 

Minor adjustment here the Dragons would be 36 shots with FRSRF @ 12 not 40 sgt can't take a hotshot lasgun.  Think that also throws your math off as vs MEQ 4 volleyguns getting out of a vehicle for kappic with 5 normal guns not double tapping and without orders actually outperforms (very slightly) the 36 shots from dragons that require an order.  

 

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

Just an aside, can someone remind me of the rules regarding deepstriking? You need half the points and half the number of units to be at least equal or less for the deep strikers? 

 

Now, how does it work with units in a Valkyrie? does the Valk unit count as 1 or 2 drops for counting the above? 

[Kain Mor]

Units in transports that are on the board count as being on the board (for the purposes of deployment, not abilities and stratagems generally) So you would get to count units in Valkyries and Tauroxes as deployed as far as reserves go

[sairence]

I actually think the Lions are pretty great for deep striking a bunch of Plasma, primarily because of the Warlord-trait. A reroll 1 bubble is such a rare thing for Guard and it means that your Primes orders can go exclusively towards reroll wound orders. Your one Tempestor can easily order 12 plasmaguns (3 10-men squads or command squads). The new extra AP is just a bonus at that stage but will definitely help against vehicles and power armour without invun saves.

 

You can bring the relic as well to keep them a bit safer, but I'd say that's almost optional depending on what you're facing.

[Trickstick]

When looking at the Kappic Eagles strat, remember you can spend a CP to drop your boys 5" from the enemy, with no restriction on charging after the drop.

They would have to use Valkyries to do that though. You need to be Gorgonnes to get 5" drops without Valks.

[Bluflash]

Yes, that's correct. I was pointing out a way to make their specific strategem useful.

 

Can anyone with the text confirm if Gorgonne 5" strat is used pre-game or when you drop?

[Mr4Minutes]

It’s used in the movement phase, so you’re only doing it once per turn.

 

I’m wondering how well the Gorgonne strat will pair with the SoB drop and shoot flammers strat(seraphim? Can’t remember the unit with double flamer pistols and bolt pistols) I know they could drop, clear the chaff then the melta scions drop in to be potentially closer to key units.

 

I think the precision drop strat is straight up better tho. 1 cp and it’s any unit getting out of a Valkyrie without the penalty of no charges.

Scions may not be great in CC, but they should be able to tie up something or shut down a key shooting unit.

 

Personally I’m feeling like the melta scion bomb is a trap, even when deploying out of a Valkyrie. The increased cost and the variance of meltas even in melta range still makes me think Plasma is better.

 

I think the real key usage for the strat is objective grabbing or denying. Being able to drop ob sec units within 5” can steal some objectives or get some good positioning in back corners that may be hard to reach.

[Trickstick]

I think the precision drop strat is straight up better tho. 1 cp and it’s any unit getting out of a Valkyrie without the penalty of no charges.

There are some restrictions, as it only works on disembarking units that are Militarum Tempestus and have Aerial Drop. That's why I am not a fan of combos putting support units in valks. Something like an Astropath trying to buff a drop scion squad will have to run the risk of dying as it doesn't get the protection that the scions do.

[Bluflash]

Astropaths are a 15 point risk I'm willing to take every single time.

Granting a denial, ignore cover to an enemy unit (goodbye prepared positions), and either a defensive power or psychic maelstrom for 15 pts and a seat in a valk is totally worth a 1/6 chance he goes pop.

More of a choice is taking an Officer of the fleet in the second jump seat. 20pts to give my Valks re-roll ones, and 1CP for an average 2 mortals is a pretty good deal as well.

 

Starting the plasma fusillade with 4 mortals on the target and no cover really helps ensure death.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Bluflash

[Trickstick]

If you are using the 1cp, you don't need the OoF in the Valk and can keep him wherever. Well, assuming you use a vox caster of course. I like to use them as it lets my 2x10 and Tempestor to not be limited by the 6" order range. Being able to attack targets up to 18" away opens up a lot of flexibility for 10 points.

[noigrim]

He extra -1 doctrines seems the best

[Bluflash]

If you are using the 1cp, you don't need the OoF in the Valk and can keep him wherever. Well, assuming you use a vox caster of course. I like to use them as it lets my 2x10 and Tempestor to not be limited by the 6" order range. Being able to attack targets up to 18" away opens up a lot of flexibility for 10 points.

 

I'll be running Kappic Eagles as my first test, so I want them providing the +1 rerolls as well as the mortal wounds.

1 CP to add in the Master Vox trait, and the points savings on not buying Vox sets pays for the OotF.

 

Also, looking at the proposed ITC rules, dumping a few extra bodies in the enemy deployment zones can help you max out Recon/Behind Enemy lines in two turns. It's totally viable with Valk plasma tempestus to have secured all 12 secondary points by end round 2,  just pop 4 vehicles/monsters to max Big game hunter.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Bluflash

[Mobius0288]

Do you think there's some synergy with the dragoons and the vigilus ablaze stuff, or would that be too many CPs to sink? I'm thinking from an ally perspective not a mono scion list. A lot of +1 to hit opportunities, ignore cover, a couple overwatch buffing options and some first turn "dropping" via valks.

 

Or maybe the 55th for more hot shot volley gun usage and vox? Hm...

[Trickstick]

Technically none of the new regiments can use the Vigilus formation:

 

 

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

It is obviously going to change, but as it stands...

[KGatch113]

Technically none of the new regiments can use the Vigilus formation:

 

 

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

It is obviously going to change, but as it stands.

 

So there is a double whammy....only a Stormtroopers Doctrine detachment can take the TDF, and/or they define a MTD has only having the ST RD. How does this interact with page 64 of the Greater Good....

[NatBrannigan]

Those Vigilus detachments are starting to cause issues... The main reason Imperial Fists are too strong at the moment is the Vigilus Detachment flinging out dozens of mortal wounds everywhere.

 

It would hit Guard hardest of all but I'd be happy to see them disappear personally.

[Trickstick]

The only Vigilus thing that I would be sad to see go would be the Hammer of Sundrance, and that is because I use it to represent a true Vanquisher cannon. If they ever fix the Vanquisher I could do without the rest of Vigilus.

[mertbl]

I believe this was to stop people from taking a cadian detachment that has a scion squad in it and making them a "Tempeatus Drop Force" nothing more.

 

Technically none of the new regiments can use the Vigilus formation:

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

It is obviously going to change, but as it stands...