Psychic Abilities and Relics

[Skywrath]

What psychic abilities and relics would you recommend for the following units?

 

Disclaimer: I have a rough idea what psychic abilities the units would need, I just want to compare my impressions with what people would normally run. This might very well turn into another series of longer, theoretical based questions, so you have been warned!

 

1. Kaldor Draigo

2. Nemesis Dreadknight (One is with 2x dreadfists, one is with Nemesis Dreadsword and dreadfist. (Both are with both psycannon/psilencers))

3. Paladin Squad (all with nemesis halberds, paragon with daemon hammer)

4. Venerable Dreadnought

5. Strike Squad (all with nemesis halberds, paragons with daemon hammers)

Edited February 8, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Seizeman]

I prefer too keep it simple for regular units, so I equip them all with the same powers. 

 

Shooty dreadnoughts with astral aim, strikes with gate, GMNDKs with sanctuary and paladins with hammerhand.

 

You might be tempted to sprinkle some other powers, but I value the redundancy a lot more than the rare chance of casting an extra useful power, specially now that you can just cast 2W smites. It also simplifies the game, not having to remember the different powers and having to plan your strategy around that.

 

On characters, empirean domination, edict imperator, armoured resilience and warp shaping are mandatory, and most of the time you want a secon instance of warp shaping, and possibly resilience. One instance of inner fire is very useful in some situations, although I would only consider using it if you have at least double battalion (13+ CP), otherwise I would just skip it. also don't want it on your main caster or warlord. You also want a copy of astral aim in case you are not playing dreadnoughts (which I think is probably the right thing to do right now), and, if you can spare it, an extra copy of sanctuary to use on your paladins after your GMNDKs die.

 

In my case, I'm playing with Voldus, Draigo, a BC and 2 apothecaries, with no dreadnoughts. I use astral Aim with the BC, armoured resilience, edict imperator and warp shaping/empyrean on Voldus, shaping and armoured resilience/empyrean  on Draigo, and inner fire/empyrean/warp shaping/sanctuary on the apothecaries, depending on if I want inner fire and what Voldus/Draigo have. This way, I can start with Voldus in play and cast resilience on my paladins (and then gate them with a strike squad) and imperator a GMNDK so I have two threats  on my opponents face on turn 1, and also cast empyrean for the extra CP or use shaping, depending on the game plan. This allows me to deep strike with the rest of my characters. 

 

If Draigo is your only character, I would give him resilience and edict (assuming you are playing the GMNDKs and the paladins), but you really want at least one more character with 2+ powers. At the bare minimum, I would add a librarian and give him resilience and edict, so he can cast them on turn 1, and shaping and domination to Draigo, so you can deep strike with him, since those two powers are not usually needed on turn 1. If you are really starved for powers, in certain conditions (low points game, extemely shooty opponent), you can even skip shaping for something else and just stay the whole game in tide of shadows.

[Skywrath]

Thanks your response. Unfortunately, I'm going to stick to my previous statement and ask follow-up questions. Sorry!

 

Perhaps I should be more clear with the list I have in mind. I included the list in the spoiler (for reference we are referring to the 1000 point one), see what you think about the right choices. In regards to the advice that you given me.  All of those psychic powers for the specific were the ones I had in mind, barring the strike squad, which upon reflection makes perfect sense. 

 

1. GMNDK's. What exactly is their role in the battlefield? Not in the sense of whether they are HQ, Elite, etc, etc, but in the sense of are they more melee focused or ranged focused. The STR 12 dreadfists pack a nasty punch (pun not intended), but their artillery is just as good. Facing toe to toe with a more melee focused character, they work just as well.

 

And this is where finding their optimal psychic ability becomes tricky (in my mind). Assuming they were more melee focused, wouldn't you want Hammer-hand or Gate of Infinity? And if they were ranged, wouldn't you want the previous two or astral aim? Or should we skip that entirely and focus on the Dominus disciplines? Or is this completely depends on what position do I envision them in the army?

 

2. I do wonder, with having multiple instances of the dominus discipline powers, wouldn't it be more efficient to take a relic that gives you a +1 to power selection? Or using a CP on that ability that allows you to manifest another one? 

 

3. Are venerable dreadnoughts any good? Can they manifest dominus discipline abilities? And if not, what should I replace them with? (Again giving you a link to the full list of the army). 

 

4. Draigo is my only character, however Voldus is a strong consideration in my army. The BC is also considered as a cheaper alternative. I do have a DA terminator librarian which with a bit of work I could repaint into GK colors. The last bit about being starved for powers is quite accurate, hence this topic. 

 

5. With regards to the tides, would you recommend a strategy in how to use them effectively? My initial idea would be tide of shadows the whole game, and in close combat go for the tide that adds 1 to str/wounds?

 

Again, thank you for your input, it's strongly appreciated.

 

Current 1000 point list. (Disregard psychic abilities included in there)

• • HQ [40 PL, 603pts]
    • Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 209pts]

      Selections: Dreadfist [5pts], Dreadfist [10pts], Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary

    • Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 214pts]

      Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Nemesis Greatsword [10pts], Sanctuary

    • Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]

      Selections: 1: Daemon Slayer, Edict Imperator, Warlord, Warp Shaping

  • Elites [19 PL, 249pts]
    • Paladin Squad [19 PL, 249pts]

      Selections: Hammerhand

      • 3x Paladin (Halberd) [132pts]

        Selections: 3x Nemesis Force Halberd [3pts], 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

      • Paladin (Psycannon) [61pts]

        Selections: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

      • Paragon [56pts]

        Selections: Storm Bolter [2pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

 

1750 point army. 

 

• • HQ [40 PL, 603pts]
    • Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 214pts]

      Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Nemesis Greatsword [10pts]

    • Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 209pts]

      Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [5pts], Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary

    • Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]

      Selections: 1: Daemon Slayer, Edict Imperator, Warlord, Warp Shaping

  • Troops [40 PL, 429pts]
    • Strike Squad [7 PL, 101pts]
      • 3x Grey Knight (Halberd) [51pts]

        Selections: 3x Nemesis Force Halberd [3pts], 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

      • Grey Knight (Psycannon) [21pts]

        Selections: Psycannon [7pts]

      • Grey Knight Justicar [29pts]

        Selections: Storm bolter [2pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

    • Strike Squad [7 PL, 101pts]

      Selections: Hammerhand

      • 3x Grey Knight (Halberd) [51pts]

        Selections: 3x Nemesis Force Halberd [3pts], 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

      • Grey Knight (Psycannon) [21pts]

        Selections: Psycannon [7pts]

      • Grey Knight Justicar [29pts]

        Selections: Storm bolter [2pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

    • Terminator Squad [26 PL, 227pts]

      Selections: Hammerhand

      • Grey Knight Terminator Justicar [47pts]

        Selections: Storm bolter [2pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

      • 4x Terminator (Halberd) [140pts]

        Selections: 4x Nemesis Force Halberd [4pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

      • Terminator (Psycannon) [40pts]

        Selections: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

        • Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]

  • Elites [55 PL, 713pts]
    • Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]
      • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

        Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

    • Paladin Squad [32 PL, 371pts]
      • 5x Paladin (Halberd) [220pts]

        Selections: 5x Nemesis Force Halberd [5pts], 5x Storm Bolter [10pts]

      • Paladin (Psilencer) [46pts]

        Selections: Psilencer (Terminator) [4pts]

        • Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

      • Paladin (Psycannon) [49pts]

        Selections: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

        • Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

      • Paragon [56pts]

        Selections: Storm Bolter [2pts]

        • Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

          Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts]

    • Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 127pts]

      Selections: Assault cannon [22pts], Missile launcher [20pts]

    • Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 127pts]

      Selections: Assault cannon [22pts], Missile launcher [20pts]

Edited February 14, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary quote removed

[Seizeman]

1. GMNDKs are just a big durable threat, they are good at both shooting and melee, but they are not very fast, so edict imperator and gate are very good on them. They are bad only against mass light infantry, but thats what you have bolters for. Their only disadvantage is that they need a 3++ to be survivable enough. The usual strategy is to give "heed the prognosticars" to one of them and sanctuary on the other one on the first turn. On the second turn, one of them will probably be dead or very low, as they attract a lot of fire, so you will just use sanctuary on the healthy one. That's why they both need to have sanctuary, also since you don't have other ways to give them 3++, running more than 2 of them is inefficient. Astral aim can situationally be good on them, but it should be provided buy a support character, and hammerhand is usually not needed, as they are killy enough in close combat, specially with the new "overwhelming assault stratagem". Another good thing about them is that their base is quite big, so they are good candidates for having the "first to the fray" warlord trait (although them being warlords have distinct disadvantages) or auras like the "empyric surge" stratagem.

 

2. There's no such relic. There's  a warlord trait that does that, but you need "first to the fray". The stratagem only let's you use one more power, not know one more, so It's only useful to cast a smite, situationally. The usefulness to having multiple instances of your best powers is to be able to cast them if one of your characters die. Warp shaping is probably the most necessary, as having your character killed could lock you into a tide for the rest of the game. An extra sanctuary is good because your GMNDKs are going to die eventually and at that point it becomes useful to use them on your paladins for a 4++. If one of your GMNDKs dies and the other is relatively healthy, you can give that one "heed the prognosticars" and sanctuary to the paladins, keeping your army durable. 

 

3. Venerables are not characters, so no dominus for them. After testing them for a while, I've come to the conclusion that they are not good enough. The main argument for them is that you don't have long range firepower, but dreadnoughts do not solve that. With 3 lascannon + autocannon vendreads (best combination against armor), you are lucky if you kill an enemy vehicle per turn (a vehicle that costs the opponent 200 points or less), and they die very quickly with theyr low save and number of wounds, and that's not enough for how expensive they are. I've found more effective to just rush to the opponent and kill everything else before killing the vehicles in melee. GMNDK's can shoot down one or two light vehicles if needed.

 

4. If you want to play GKs, you will want to aquire Voldus sooner or later, it is a good alternative to Draigo, or you can play both of them. The brother captain is mandatory if you want to take advantage of tide of escalation.

 

5. As for tides, the main ones are tide of escalation and tide of shadows. Convergence is very situational and fury totally useless, I'd say. The main plan is to stay in shadows for most of the game, potentially switching to escalation on turn 2-3 for the alpha strike, depending on the situation, but there are several tricks to take into account.

 

If you have first turn and you have most of your army on the board and in 24'' range of the enemy (depending on the mission you can know if you have first turn before deploying), you can start in escalation, cast your 24'' 2W smites thanks to the brother captain, and then switch to shadows to be protected on your opponent's turn (you have basically a free use of escalation). You can also start on convergence, cast astral aim on your paladin bomb, ptentially gate them close to the enemy and use edict imperator + "psybolt amunition" for 40 S6 AP-1 D2 (and no cover) shots on a unit out of LOS, then switch to tide of shadows before the opponent's turn, similarly to the escalation trick, but needing fewer units (convenient if you have many units in reserve). You can consider giving one of your backline strike squads astral aim if you think you'll need to use this trick, so you don't need the extra character on the table (you'd need just the paladin squad, the Voldus/librarian and the 2 backline strikes that you want to start on the table anyway).

 

Anyway, you should be in tide of shadows during your opponent's first turn. Then, you can switch to escalation on turn 2, after you have deployed your reserves and ideally most of your army is on smite range, to decimate the enemy. Turn 3, you can use escalation for another round of smites and then switch to shadows at the end of the psychic phase to be safe during your opponent's turn or, potentially, to convergence for a round of shooting, although, in my list, that would only benefit paladins with "psybolt ammunition", so I would almost never use it, but it's important to consider the possibility. The main point is, that each time you switch to escalation, you get to use it for 2 turns in exchange for 1 turn of shadows. So, the most important tactical decision is wether to switch to escalation on turn 2 or stay in shadows, and you have to ponder if the extra damage is going to make enough of a difference to make it worth receiving a turn of shooting without shadow, considering how much can reduce your opponent's shooting power in your shooting and assault phases that turn, etc. In case of doubt, stay in shadows (unless you just want to test the other choice, of course) and wait for the turn 3 to consider it again, when you will, ideally, be better positioned and the opponent will have less firepower to shoot you back (although you will have less units to make use of escalation, so consider that too).

 

As for changes to your list, I'll just post my current one so you can look it up and ask any doubts you have about it. Mind that, although I've already played a significant amount of games with the new rules and make several changes, the list is by no means definitive.

 

Draigo

Voldus

BC with hammer

2x GMNDK with hammer, psilencer, psycannon

 

6x Strike squad (5) with halberds

 

2x apothecary with hammer

Paladins (8) with 3 hammers and halberds

Servitors (6)

[Skywrath]

A few things spring to mind with your response (thank you for that by the way). 

 

1.  Seeing how I haven't seen just a normal NDK, as everyone goes for the GMNDK, would I be correct in assuming that a lot of people would be running a lot of instances of the supreme command detachment? Especially when you consider Voldus and the BC. So one detachment would look like - 2 GMNDKs/Kaldor and the other one would be Voldus, BC and a Chaplain/Librarian? I do chaff at having a lot of HQ in my army, however for future purposes, it would be useful if I do go into a brigade detachment. 

 

2. Based on your explanation, you think first into the fray is pointless. After looking at the logic of it, I think I'll abstain from using that trait for my warlord. However there was a trait that gave you +1 to the invulnerable throw, wouldn't that be useful for said GMNDK's? 

 

Wasn't aware that killing a guy with warp shaping would lock you into a tide for the rest of the game. I just assumed that if the character died, the warp tide would dissipate returning the game to normal.

 

3. Venerable Dreadnoughts were something I am considering running nonetherless, so I will ask whether there are better alternatives to those (take my 1750 point list into consideration). Stormhawk Gunship comes to mind, however I do have zero idea what GK's run usually. My current list is mostly to avoid paladin bombs, as my DA army is pretty similar to that idea (20x deathwing terminators). Not particularly keen on adding more strike squads to my army, however I could throw in a few terminator squads in there, mainly for the GK thematic.

 

4. Again with having that much HQ, is goes full circle (pun not intended) to question one. How many Supreme Command Detachments do people run if that were the case? And if I were to run both supreme detachments, what changes would I need to make to my army to make that option competitive? After-all those lists were designed to be competitive in mind. (Not trying to go for a paladin bomb type list, again).

 

5. Acknowledged your point about tides, and will include that in the strategy. However if the list was more vehicle heavy, what tide would be the one to go for?

 

6. With regards to your list, it's similar to the one I have (how many points are you playing at?), however I have a lot less strike squads, and more "special" units. I don't see me running servitors in my army at all, there is just no place for them in there. I could see running 1 techmarine instead though, assuming I were going for 2 x GMNDK's, and 2 x Ven Dreadnoughts. 

 

Thank you again for your insight

Edited February 14, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary quote removed

[Seizeman]

For detachments, you just use battalions and  vanguards. In my case I'm running double battalion and a vanguard detachment for a total of 14 CP. I'm plaing 2000 points. Grey Knights have  really good HQ choices, but almost not choices for fast or heavy units, so it is only natural that they play a lot of them. Actually 5 is not that many, most armies play a lot more.

 

First to the fray is not pointless, on the ontrary, it's necessary, that's why you can't take other warlord traits. Also that +1 save trait you mention does not exist. There's a stratagem that does that, for 2 CP.

 

Terminators are garbage, there's no reason to use them under any circumstance. Paladins are better in every possible way, and strikes are better troops. If you want to avoid paladin bombs and HQs, you should just play a different army, becaue that's what GK are mostly about.

 

There aren't any real alternatives to dreadnoughts, our codex is very limited. Land raiders also have good long range firepower, but it's not enough by itself. You need at least 3 vendreads/land raiders for them to have any meaningful impact, and that's terribly expensive.

[Skywrath]

Perhaps I should rephrase. I'm not particularly adverse to the idea of paladin bombs, it just I would want variety in there, and a noticeable variety at that.

 

Looks like my 2 Venerable dreadnoughts are staying in there - any suggestions on their loadout? Final thoughts on the stormhawk/stormraven/stormtalon?

 

These will be the final questions.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary quote removed

[Seizeman]

Is not like the paladin bomb makes you army one-dimensional, on the contrary, is just one more tool. You are still going to have dreadknihgts, characters, power armour and, potentially, dreadnoughts/land raiders, it does not really take away anything. Also, I think unkillable paladins is one of the main reasons why GK can be competitive now, without them your army is just very fragile.

 

Best loadout for vendreads is twin autocannon + twin lascannon. If you play in a league or tournament that does not allow legends, missile launcher + lascannon, although they become a lot worse and absolutely not worthy in my oppinion, except to potentially snipe some backfield artillery with astral aim.

 

Stormraven is ridiculously expensive for how easy is to kill, and a deathtrap for anyone embarked on them. The other flyers are far worse than theyr marine counterparts and don't really fit in our gameplan.

[Skywrath]

That's what my dreadnoughts are loaded as, and that's the original plan. As you also asked, my store doesn't allow legends in tournaments, so choosing those two options was optimal. Thanks your advice my dude. 

 

I updated the list with your advice in mind, it's in the army list section.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary quote removed

[Archon_77]

I'm not sold on Godhammer Landraiders being not worth it. .  .  I'm putting one on the board, giving it astral aim and also edict imperator.  What that does is give me 4 lascannon shots in the psychic phase, 4 in the shooting phase, and heavy bolter shots as well (since I usually run it stock) , with the option to do it from out of LOS AND ignoring cover.  The only drawback is that when I do this I cannot charge with the Landraider (LOL).  I may also add a second for redundancy sake, though it will get four shots and no astral aim as we cannot cast the same power twice.  

[Tralador]

4 on the psychic OR 4 in the shooting. Edict stops any further shooting from the unit.

[Seizeman]

Yes, only 4 shot per turn, plus now he does not benefit from tide of shadows, so there goes any little use they may have.

[Skywrath]

Completely misread the statement, disregard this message.  

Edited February 10, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Captain Coolpants]

Kinda makes sense removing tides from vehicles. But whyyyy? Not like it was OP. Even the people playing winning games with us weren't using vehicles.

[Trollbeard]

So I had my first game with the new rules last night. I used my librarian as a “pyschic assassin” with inner fire. I used pyschic channeling to boost my roll, along with the sanctum shard.

 

I managed to roll an 11 before my buffs, which got me a 13, i then rolled 8 mortal wounds to my opponents executioner repulsor, and then wound up rolling 5 1s... lol, so I killed myself.

 

It is a fun combo though that’s for sure!

[Skywrath]

So I had my first game with the new rules last night. I used my librarian as a “pyschic assassin” with inner fire. I used pyschic channeling to boost my roll, along with the sanctum shard.

 

I managed to roll an 11 before my buffs, which got me a 13, i then rolled 8 mortal wounds to my opponents executioner repulsor, and then wound up rolling 5 1s... lol, so I killed myself.

 

It is a fun combo though that’s for sure!

 

Used that ability as well, very very useful for taking out enemy HQ. 

[Brother Tex]

I have a question on our Smites? Do we need line of sight as written in the BRB or is it as written in our codex as only specifying the closest enemy unit?

Apology if this is already a topic, but I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

[Tralador]

Your smite hits the closest Visible enemy. So, yes, you need to see them, but it will skip over enemies you CAN’T see.

[Brother Tex]

Ooops, looks like I cheated when I destroyed my sons army! Lol

Fist game back with Grey Knights, need to iron out the bugs. Thanks

[Skywrath]

Back on topic. 

 

Let's assume my Paladin Squad knows only Hammerhand (on top of Smite). In the game, are they free to cast other abilities from the Sanctic Discipline (Astral Aim, Sanctuary, etc) or are they just locked into the one ability (Hammerhand only)?

[Captain Coolpants]

Locked to the 1 power that you chose for the whole game. Plus smite.

[Trollbeard]

So do you fine people think the sanctic shard should go on a librarian for warp shaping and the CP spell?

 

I used it on an inner flame psychic assassin librarian, but he killed him self with it lol.

 

Is it more important to get warp shaping and CP then buff some damage spells?

[Gaz1858]

So do you fine people think the sanctic shard should go on a librarian for warp shaping and the CP spell?

 

I used it on an inner flame psychic assassin librarian, but he killed him self with it lol.

 

Is it more important to get warp shaping and CP then buff some damage spells?

Personally I will have a Libby with the Matrix casting Domination and Shaping whilst someone else with Inner Fire has the Shard

 

What casting value did you get when you used the libby?

Edited February 26, 2020 by Gaz1858

[Trollbeard]

I got a 13 with various strats helping, I used pyschic channeling, wound up killing myself and my target though lol. Rolled 8x 3+ and 5 x 1s... lol not a single 2!