Surviving in a competitive meta with Thousand Sons

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Indeed, though I don't do tourney this is a great read with much cud to chew. I've finally read through my PA:TS to complete everything I've been reading lately, overall I'm a bit disappointed considering what other factions have got. It doesn't change anything however, my plans to get my Sons going remain the same. I've no idea what Cult I'll use yet, but I need to get more models done before I can worry about that so I'll be keeping up with everyone's thoughts and experiences to help me in my games

I like trying them out in low point games just to see what impact they have individually.

[Heliomanes]

Since Millionssons asked about my army choices, I'm posting my list again:

Cult of Duplicity batallion:

Ahriman on disk
Sorcerer (Duplicitious tactician WLT via magister strat, dark matter crystal)

5 Rubrics
5 Rubrics
19 Rubrics

Leviathan dread, claw and butcher cannon

Cult of Magic batallion:

Daemon prince, wings, claws, devestating sorcery, +1 to cast relic.
Exalted sorcerer, disk
Sorcerer

20 Tzaangors
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

Cult of Time auxiliary support detachment:

9 Scarab Occult terminators.

Concerning Magnus and the Contemptors, I haven't really tried any of those choices so far after Ritual of the Damned. Magnus lists were what I tried to use last year and had some bad experiences, so I'm really reluctant to bring him, despite thinking that he got a pretty big buff.
If you want to bring him I guess you'd have to fly him up, unload his spells, and try to fly him back out of range with warp time. The alternative is to use all your defensive buffs on him, which I find myself unwilling to do, since it would leave my bubble wrap largely unprotected and thus my characters vulnerable. I just don't think I'm able to operate a list like that, now that most things have 30' range and tons of movement options, making Magnus very hard to hide. I can see the appeal though, and would love to read some reports of people using him.

Contemptors... To be honest, I converted my Osiron Dreads to Daemon Princes, so I don't really have the models at hand, but I hear lots of people telling me they are great, especially the lascannon versions backed up by the Pythic Brazier and given the reroll bubble from an exalted sorcerer. I haven't really tried it so I don't know how well it works. If moved up midfield they would certainly provide a juicy target and distraction from my characters, so I could see it work. Some long range firepower might also be nice when needed. I'm just very reluctant to take another relic than the one from Cult of Magic, since we're locked to a single one from Ritual of the Damned. And without that relic, the Contemptors might be better off being Scourged or something else rather than Thousand Sons. Others talk about having a few of them ready to teleport one per turn with relatively cheap close range weapons. Again, not sure. Haven't tried it, but I find it unlikely to set the world on fire. But again they are probably great distractions, which this kind of list loves. Have any of you guys played them? Curious to see how you used them and how they functioned.

Tzaangors - Yeah, like Prot I still find use for them. Either deployed through the webway or put on the table with warptime, or even the dark matter crystal if necessary. I have some options for them. If someone brings a culexus assassin, their job is to take him out. Move them up with one of the options noted above, cast prescience for a +1 to hit, and with their innate reroll to hit against characters they can circumvent the "only gets hit on a 6+" rule those assassins have. In other cases they just hop in to contest an objective through their objective secured rule, tie up something shooty in combat, or do a speedbump formation, shielding characters again. It's just a cheap 20 man squad, but I find they give me a lot of gameplay options despite rarely killing much.

[Archaeinox]

really good idea using the aux support. 

 

if you have 2 batts it def makes sense to pay a CP to just take the terminators.. good idea.. WC 5 is easy to cast, too.

[Heliomanes]

I've been lurking around a little on various forums and on reddit (been travelling a bit lately, so I need some distractions). I stumbled across this thread, which I think presents a more competitively minded version of the list I posted above. The big difference is that the Leviathan has been scrapped to get more characters in, and some other choices have been shuffled around a bit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/f60t92/2k_pure_thousand_sons_for_new_itc_2020_missions/

Here's the list copied and pasted from the original thread, but I recommend going in and reading through his thoughts and participating in the conversation on reddit. Notes are his, not mine.
 

Cult of Magic Supreme Command Detachment

Ahriman on Disc 166 pts

• Doombolt, Prescience, Warptime

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch 195 pts

• Wings, Sword (its what he is modeled with-metal Juan Diaz sculpt)

• Warlord: Devastating Sorcerery

• Relic: Arcane Focus

• Powers: Astral Blast, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway

Terminator Sorcerer 120 pts

• Familiar

• Powers: Astral Blast, Death Hex, Gift of Chaos

BATTALION DETACHMENT- Cult of Duplicity

Daemon Prince 156 pts

• Magister strategem: High Magister

• Extra Relic: Dark Matter Crystal

• Sword, Talon (no wings)

• Powers: Facade, Gaze of Fate, Glamour of Tzeentch

Sorcerer 88 pts
*Powers: Facade, Weaver of Fates, Temporal Manipulation

• !Note I will spend 2 extra command points to give out 2 extra relics instead of 1 extra relic to give this dude Helm of the Third Eye, depending on opponents list

Rubric Marines (x20) 348 pts

• 2 Soulreaper cannons, Weaver of Fates

Rubric Marines (x10) 178 pts

• 1 Soulreaper Cannon, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Rubric Marines (x5) 88 pts

• Boon of Mutation

BATALION DETACHMENT- Cult of Time

Sorcerer 88 pts

Sorcerer 88 pts

Cultists (x10) 40 pts

Cultists (x10) 40 pts

Cultists (x10) 40 pts

Scarab Occult Terminators (x10) 364 pts

• x2 Hellfire missile racks, x9 inferno combi bolters and power swords, Weaver of Fates

 

 

With a few tweaks I think this can become quite strong for a monofaction Thousand Sons list, and functions as a good template. I particularily like the 2xbatallion (one with rubrics, one with other stuff) + supreme command format, and am tempted by the addition of the Duplicity High Magister Daemon Prince, which gives you gaze of fate without paying a cp for it, and sorcerous facade teleports with a +1 when necessary.
I also think the large amount of characters is a good move. Note that he has 3 regular sorcerers, adding to a total of 7 smites per turn before you start factoring in other powers. Not counting potential micro-smites.

I'm not a big fan of soulreaper cannons, and would probably try to shave off enough points to switch out a cultist unit for a 20 man tzaangor herd I can webway. Ideally I'd also place Ahriman in another detachment, so I'd get a third character - one more mobile than the deep striking sorc - with astral blast, just as a redundancy thing. Plenty of snipers about these days, after all.

[Prot]

I think the list is actually very much like something I would play. I would probably say for competitive play it’s got a bit too much invested in Terminators, and we/I know that I am admittedly always heavy with them.  In this case, going all out 10 is hard to justify. Just after a point they have diminishing returns, kind of like Tzaangors after a while.

 

I am going to probably differ on the 20 man Rubric squad. Again purely competitively speaking they cap out for me. 

 

On Soulreapers I do admit the most competitive player will probably drop them, and I only use 1 with my Termies, and 1 with 1 squad of Rubrics. Here’s the thing though... I use that amount of them because they’re modeled that way. However I always find them handy in an army especially like this when you are hurting for anti tank. It’s really strange, but I find with this edition’s split fire, and Vets of the Longwar, they actually aren’t that bad against T7, or 2+ saves in cover. Seriously.

 

I personally don’t like the Leviathan for Thousand Sons. The army is too small too begin with and that’s really the only hard target.  I’d use it for fun play, but the other thing (talking again purely competitively) I think after the Broviathan list, and how many were present at LVO there will be some repercussions for the unit when GW decides to whack it with a nerf bat.

[Heliomanes]

Fair points. I am curious though - without the 20 man squads, the leviathan, or potentially overinvesting in terminators  or some other big and hard unit to buff defensively with stacked Indomitable, Weaver and Glamour - where do you get your staying power? Do you spread the buffs thin on 10 man units and hide your characters behind those?

I think you are right on the Leviathan and potentially the whole termie squad, to be frank - but I have been entirely reliant on the big anchor unit in my games so far and struggle to see an alternative to all the above. I can see variants work though, like 2x20 rubrics, one infiltrated and another teleported in before the first falls, again stacking all 3 defensive buffs.

I am curious about exchanging cult of time for cult of mutation for purely competitive play. The whole point would be to counter marines, tau and other castle armies by halving the movement of their key unit, preferably a big buff unit they want to turtle around. Since we don't need LOS to the unit itself, just a nearby piece of terrain, it is quite simple to use it to snipe and slow down even those easy to hide buff characters.

[Prot]

Fair points. I am curious though - without the 20 man squads, the leviathan, or potentially overinvesting in terminators  or some other big and hard unit to buff defensively with stacked Indomitable, Weaver and Glamour - where do you get your staying power? Do you spread the buffs thin on 10 man units and hide your characters behind those?

 

 

Absolutely. If I can get an opponent to over commit to the 10 man squads, I'm very okay with that. Plus I usually put 'support' powers on my squad's sorcs, so an extra sorc is valuable. 

 

I typically try to throw a weird threat into my opponent every turn that just causes enough hesitation... like Tzaangors, or in my last written batrep the Helbrute was very good at that. 

 

I think you are right on the Leviathan and potentially the whole termie squad, to be frank - but I have been entirely reliant on the big anchor unit in my games so far and struggle to see an alternative to all the above. I can see variants work though, like 2x20 rubrics, one infiltrated and another teleported in before the first falls, again stacking all 3 defensive buffs.

 

 

 

 

I think personally to see a greater return on investment we are forced out side of the codex. I'll get some really variable mileage out of 'goofy' units like the Spawn, etc, but really to be better, to be ultimately competitive the options get better outside of the codex.

 

For example, let's say I was willing to throw my 'pure' Thousand Sons intentions out the window (which I'm not) and was looking at the cheapest, resilience in this current meta to work as a walking wall for my Thousand Sons Magic Sorcs, and Ahriman.

 

I would probably buy max squads of Poxwalkers, with that Forgeworld Sorc for re-roll 1's on the FnP rolls. Perhaps Typhus for +1 T on them, and just expand outward. This also gets around the Grey Knights absolutely ridiculous punishment for "Daemon" keyword that does affect some of our options, or obviously Daemons/Plaguebearers/Horrors, etc. The Poxwalkers can re-gen, and will always have that 5++, re rolling 1's and you put Cloud of Flies on them, maybe Miasma. (been a while since I played Death Guard).

 

Otherwise I still like Chaos Knights as an option as well instead of too many Termies/Leviathan, etc. 

 

There are better options in my opinion, unfortunately they're all way outside the Thousand Sons options.

 

 

 

[Archaeinox]

i just cant get behind 20 rubrics. i think 18 is my max. They are no less durable than 20.

[Heliomanes]

Yeah, I think the most competitive variants are either to ally in the deathguard T8 vehicles, or the list currently used by the british ETC team - tons of characters, 20 man blob of rubrics, a few tiny horror squads for splits and some points for summoning more when needed.

I'd like 10 man squads of rubrics to work, but I just don't see it. My games have been entirely reliant on that big, buffed unit holding. If they killed one, then the opponent might have opened up a way to take out my characters through firepower and well placed deep strikers or infiltrators, so I'd like to make that as hard as possible.
If you guys are having more luck with the 10 man thing then I will definately experiment more with it though.
 

[Archaeinox]

I have not found 9-10man units effective at all in tournaments, even when matched up with a casual player who just so happens to attend the tournament because they are there at the shop anyway (kind of what I do, myself). 

 

After trying to make it work, and wanting to make it work like you I guess, I have conceded that 5man units to fill battalions are best, with that 1 blob varying from 13-18 when I run that.

[Prot]

That’s funny you guys say that. I run 15 or 5 man squads. 
 

I think the ETC team choice of 20 man blobs protecting characters will be interesting. I’m not convinced unless there’s a trick up their sleeve. I’d rather protect with Poxwalkers if I’m being purely competitive. You’ll never get 20 rubrics in cover and competitive play is loaded with stalker bolters and the like of   But we’ll see. 
 

I still think this conversation should be steered towards pure or impure because as I mentioned, I think after HQs it gets tricky. 
 

that said as much as I like scarab occult I think there is a sound argument for skipping them in lieu of flooding Rubrics. 

[SirVulkan]

Played a game this weekend against a shooty Necron list with a pylon and won.  Used ITC.  It was a pretty decisive win but not a blow out.  He took first turn and blew away Magnus and used the necron strat with the 3 flyers to get some lucky shots on some of my characters.  It seemed like it was going to be over for me but I continued on.  Cult of time with those SoT's was awesome.  I lost 4 and had a full squad at the end.  The 10 man rubric squad was great for infiltrating forward and protecting my characters.  It was good having the helm for the extra CP because Fusilade and Votlw can chew through points fast.  

 

In the end I won because of the durability of my rubrics.  They can hold objectives like a champ with that +1 invul strat. Duplicity for grabbing objectives was great too.

 

I had the following list:

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time

 

Detachment CP

 

+ HQ +

 

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

 

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: 5. Otherworldly Prescience, Boon of Change, Dark Matter Crystal, Gaze of Fate, Magister, Malefic talon, Wings

 

+ Troops +

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Temporal Manipulation, Warpflame Pistol

4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Temporal Manipulation, Warpflame Pistol

4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Temporal Manipulation, Warpflame Pistol

9x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Scarab Occult Terminators: 2x Hellfyre Missile Rack

Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter, Temporal Manipulation

9x Terminator: 9x Inferno Combi-bolter, 9x Powersword

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle-forged CP

 

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Duplicity

 

Detachment CP

 

Gametype: Matched

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic)

 

+ HQ +

 

Sorcerer: Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warpflame Pistol

 

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Doombolt, Familiar, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Temporal Manipulation

4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Temporal Manipulation

4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

Rubric Marines

Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Temporal Manipulation

4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun

 

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Cults of the Legion: *No Cult*

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Magnus the Red: Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Warptime

Edited February 24, 2020 by SirVulkan

[Archaeinox]

Yes unfortunately I am not convinced Scarabs are very good outside of very specific instances you simply cannot plan for.

 

I think at this point I use them because of all the years I spent complaining that they took Rubric Terminators away.

[WarriorFish]

This topic continues to provide, there's a lot to be musing upon! I'll not comment on unit choices of course (further than to say SOT have Rule of Cool going for them...), but it does seem that MSU might an avenue to explore?

 

With more competitive lists needing a bit more, and this being (somewhat) available with multiple Detachments isn't this a good way of achieving this plus extra Command Points? Access to different Cults aside the MSU approach of watering down enemy action is lessened now due to 8th's inbuilt fire splitting but it's still there. If the Stratagem use is a question that isn't "use the Command Points on other units" (who may be hungry for them?), is there still the option for a single larger squad? Or would that be too much of a target?

 

Or maybe have a few larger squads, but supported by lots of MSU pickets? It feels a bit like playing as Guard yes, but then again it reminds me of when Marines were rubbish and I made them work by taking such an approach... It could even be more beneficial here, as on the basic level it means more baby Smites to throw around and more locations for the proper powers.

 

I could be (and probably am) way off, but I'd be interested to hear more

[Prot]

SirVulcan,

 

I actually like your troop set up. I don't think there's anything wrong with the smaller squads, but I do prefer one larger one to leverage Fusilade, or the infiltration Strat (which is 100% going to work or... not work in ITC for 2020).

 

I have found Necrons a very, very hard match up for our typical infantry lists. I've blasted away at Destroyers in cover for ages and done very little to them if they are shielded properly. Necrons may not really be able to deny our psych but some bad luck and their natural ability to rake elite infantry and it can put us on the back foot.

 

I do find it interesting you didn't take -any- cheap troops! No cultists, no Tzaangors. No summoned stuff... 

 

I'm glad to see you built the list to survive the loss of Magnus. Good stuff. I personally really like the choices you have. (I usually feel obligated to stick 18-20 Tzaangors somewhere in every list... maybe out of habit?).

 

I'm with you on Helm too. Since the new book dropped, I've found CP really in higher demand.

[SirVulkan]

I'll probably drop a time rubric squad for some tzaangors just to get some melee in my list but it's hard to squeeze the points out elsewhere for a full 20 squad. I was able to avoid the destroyers with Los blocking terrain. My demon prince usually handles them when they come out of hiding

[Heliomanes]

List submission date has come and gone, and I decided to bring the same list - Leviathan and the Cult of Time terminators and all. I told a few friends that I was considering two different lists, one I thought was objectively better for competitive play, but the second one had a teleporting leviathan and time travelling terminators. Which is a sales pitch it is hard to say no to, really. Fun to play, too.

I think the more competitive (well, competitive for mono-codex Thousand Sons) variant would look something like this:

Cult of duplicity batallion:

Ahriman on disc
Daemon prince, claws, Helm of third eye, Magister (Reroll and teleport caddie, so does not need wings).

5 Rubrics
5 Rubrics
19 Rubrics

9 Scarab Occult terminators

Cult of Mutation batallion:

Sorcerer
Sorcerer

10 cultists
10 cultists
20 Tzaangors, Brayhorn

Cult of Magic Supreme command:

Deamon prince, wings, claws, Arcane focus, Devastating sorcery.
Exalted sorcerer on disc
Sorcerer in terminator armor, familliar


The primary difference in this list is that the leviathan and cult of time are both gone, and the number of characters is upped to get more smites. It's also more CP efficient, and gives access to the awesome spell from Cult of Mutation. I think it might be even better if we drop the Scarabs and get another big Rubric squad, but I find it hard to part with the termies.

[Prot]

Yes the missing Cult of time makes me sad. As you say it’s a lot of fun... I’ll be playing it tonight. I hope you have a picture of that Leviathan you keep telling us about!

[Heliomanes]

By popular demand:

[Prot]

OH yea... That's total Kool-Aid man breaking through the wall!

 

I love it. The horns.. perfect. The scythe energy thingy... awesome choice. Also love that you went and used the classic symbols from the FW sheet.

 

Is your whole army in the Pre Heresy scheme? Or just the ancient Leviathan?

 

You really make me want to do one up. The idea though of that load out is tough. He looks fantastic though. I want one! 

 

Where is that portal doorway he's stepping through come from?

Edited February 26, 2020 by Prot

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm pretty sure its this terrain piece from Age of Sigmar: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Baleful-Realmgates

 

Heliomanes, that's a beautiful model.

[Prot]

I'm pretty sure its this terrain piece from Age of Sigmar: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Baleful-Realmgates

 

Heliomanes, that's a beautiful model.

great find. Thanks. Totally stealing this idea. Lol. 

[Heliomanes]

OH yea... That's total Kool-Aid man breaking through the wall!

 

I love it. The horns.. perfect. The scythe energy thingy... awesome choice. Also love that you went and used the classic symbols from the FW sheet.

 

Is your whole army in the Pre Heresy scheme? Or just the ancient Leviathan?

 

You really make me want to do one up. The idea though of that load out is tough. He looks fantastic though. I want one! 

 

Where is that portal doorway he's stepping through come from?

Thank you kindly, brothers.

 

Yeah this started as a Horus Heresy project that got gradually weirder and weirder as I got sucked into 8th edition. You can find more pics here - I'll update them to get an army shot with the list I'm bringing to the tournament, but I have a lot of work ahead of me.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345835-heliomanii-cult-army-blog/

 

Portal is indeed a realmgate. I cut out a piece of cardboard and glued on some space vistas I found in magazines, then made more of those magicky bits out of green stuff to stick it in place on both sides. Pretty simple, really. Steal away!

 

Yeah the loadout isnt the best, and I think you are right that GW will probably nerf the Leviathan into oblivion to stop the Loyalist cheese fest, dragging the underpowered chaos versions down into the mud with them. Fingers crossed that they give us more fun rules for them though. Would love to be able to heal them with our spells, for instance. Loyalist versions will reliably murder a knight armiger on overwatch alone thanks to all their reroll bubbles, which is just absurd. Sigh. Sometimes I wonder what it is like to play a game made by actual game designers.

[Heliomanes]

Well, I'm back from this week's tournament. Was a blast, as always. Days of gaming with great people through a haze of inebriation and late nights. I ended up losing 3 and winning 2 - and even getting a few painting awards. Great fun.

I might do a kind of write up later, but here's the quick version and some thoughts:

Loss vs Eldar.
Win vs Emperor's Children.
Loss vs Grey Knights.
Win vs Space Wolves.
Loss vs Chaos Knights.

1. Leviathan is out. Most lists took him out early on with little effort, so he's not worth the pricetag for what he's tanking at all.

2. Any half way competitive list will need a way to access some out of line of sight firepower, like a Whirlwind Scorpius or two. Eldar Dark Reapers for instance are almost impossible to touch outside of this with our lists, and we need it to win the objectives / secondary scoring game.

3. I desperately need more staying power and will have to ponder how to introduce this to the list. Leaning to either introducing more rubric squads, since all our defensive buffs are 'mobile' in the sense that they can be cast or used on a new unit each turn. So just switch out the 'bodyguard' unit and plan for them to die. More competitive lists will probably use something like a possessed bomb though, unless all the GK just invalidate them.

4. We need to alpha strike shooty knights. Chaos list brought a Castellan and the double gatling knight, in addition to autocannon armigers. The massive amount of multidamage, rerolling shots is just death to Rubrics and Scarabs, so I played that matchup entirely wrong. Duly noted. This means I'll have to bring enough nonsense to reliably take out a knight in my alpha strike though - and have a way to play it when I get turn 2...

5. I need more CP. 2 batallions aren't enough. I spend tons just trying to stop my casters from exploding themselves, or trying to get important spells through - and I will have to use Indomitable Foes and Veterans quite often.

6. Which is related to this - I could attempt to get some more reliability to the Psychic phase in other ways, either through the Relic from Cult of Change or - gasp - by trying out Magnus again.

7. Cult of Time termies are out. The spell does too little, and the detachment is not worth it when I am limited to a total of 3. They are best used in a 10 man unit with missiles in a duplicity detachment, so they can potentially teleport every turn, picking off important units, again allowing us to play the objectives / secondary game.

[Prot]

I'm glad you had fun. Looking forward to hearing how your match ups went.

 

I think a lot of what you commented on we/you already knew. A lot of what you took felt (to me at least) that you wanted to showcase some great looking models. And obviously you impressed! Congrats on that and I'm glad you enjoyed taking them out for a spin. :tu: