Warbringer List Thoughts

[Spleenex]

Hail, princeps! It's early days yet, but thanks to the fact that we have pics of the new Warbringer's command terminal and early reviews like the excellent one by Goonhammer, we have a pretty good idea of what the new Titan is all about. As you may have guessed from my footer text, I'm pretty excited about the prospect of a dedicated artillery titan. That all being the case, I thought it might be fun to engage in some rough cogitations on potential lists that make good use of its abilities. For the purposes of this thread, I'll be focusing on 1500-point lists because that's what most people in my area seem to play. But feel free to chime in with lists of other sizes.

 

So, without further ado, a couple of my initial thoughts:

 

List Idea 1: The dogs of war.

We don't have the full rules yet, but apparently the new Arcus maniple allows you to take a Warbringer and a couple of Warhounds. The 'Hounds can spot for the 'Bringer, allowing it to fire any and all (?) of its weapons at targets that it can't see as long as the doggos do have line of sight to the target. It still faces the -2 for indirect fire, but apparently the maniple rules also reduce scatter to 1D6" instead of 1D10". So park the 'Bringer in a corner, give it the quake and two volcanoes, and start deleting knight housholds and blowing chunks out of opposing titans from turn 1 or 2, depending on positioning and terrain. You'll likely want to arm the two mandatory 'Hounds for this maniple with long-range weapons, as their primary purpose is scouting, so dual TLDs or las/plas. Pair this with a three-engine Lupercal maniple, which can use its improved Coordinated Strike to exploit the holes the warbringer has blown out of the opposing titans' armor. You also have the potential for quite a few activations, depending on whether your Lupercal 'Hounds are squadroned or not. Depending on loadout, however, you may find yourself a bit low on shield-stripping power. Both Solaria and Fureans seem like good matches for this list - the latter for the Hunting Auspex wargear, in particular, which cancels out the -2 for indirect fire. This clocks in at right about 1500, depending on precise weapon and wargear choices.

 

 

List 1 -- 1495 points.

 

Maniple 1: Arcus -- 835pts.

• Warbringer -- 395
  • 2x Volcano
  • Quake cannon
• 2x Warhound -- 440
  • 2x TLD

Maniple 2: Lupercal -- 660

• 3x Warhound
  • Plasma
  • VMB

Support: None.

 

List Idea 2: Distributed Lethality

This list has similar synergies to list 1, but uses the 'Bringer as a support titan. Without the benefit of 'Hounds doing the spotting for the 'Bringer, it's more likely to want to move around a bit. So drop one of the volcano cannons in exchange for the stock laser blaster to take some of the pressure off the reactor. To this, add a Ferrox maniple consisting of two Reavers and two Warhounds. The close-range light maniple acts as a screen for the 'Bringer, and can soften up shields for it, as well as exploiting armor damage thanks to the Reavers' weapons mix and the 'Hounds' Coordinated Strike. The number of high-strength blast weapons in this list, all optimized for various ranges, could put your opponent in a tough spot when it comes to target priority and maneuver if you're careful with your positioning. This comes in at about 1465, allowing some room for upgrades.

 

Alternatively, you could take a Venator with one reaver and three 'Hounds, but this only gets you to about 1370 points, and there's not much you can buy with the remaining 130. This becomes a lot more viable at the 1750 pt. level, though. You could also take a minimum Venator and a second Reaver as a support engine, which gets you much closer to 1500. In terms of legios, the new Presaegius might be a good fit, as they can re-roll hit locations at long range. This is a bit at odds with the Ferrox's bonus, but it does make all the blast weapons in this list more reliable at exploiting weakened armor locations. This may work better with the minimum Venator and support Reaver option. Fureans and Astorum are also likely good fits.

 

List 2A -- 1465 points.

 

Maniple 1: Ferrox -- 1070 pts.

•   Reaver -- 310
  • Volcano
  • Laser blaster
  • AML
• Reaver -- 320
  • Melta
  • Gatling blaster
  • TLD
• 2x Warhound -- 440
  • Plasma
  • VMB

Support:

• Warbringer -- 395
  • Volcano
  • Laser Blaster
  • Quake

 

List 2B -- 1465 points.

 

Maniple 1: Venator -- 750 pts.

•   Reaver -- 310
  • Volcano
  • Laser blaster
  • AML
• 2x Warhound -- 440
  • Plasma
  • VMB

Support:

• Warbringer -- 395
  • Volcano
  • Laser Blaster
  • Quake
• Reaver -- 320
  • Melta
  • Gatling blaster
  • TLD

 

Thoughts? Critiques? Additional build ideas? 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[Mandragola]

Some thoughts on your lists:

 

The Warhounds need to strip shields from stuff. The Lupercal guys can probably do a decent job of that I suppose but I’m not sure turbo lasers are the best option for the Arcus ones.

 

If playing Fureans then I’d go for one big maniple rather than two, so you can play their strat. I'd build them a Ruptura maniple instead. This isn’t bad as Solaria though I guess.

 

I’d worry about the Warbringer cooking itself with double volcano cannons unless playing Astorum, Crucius or something. And also of it going mad all the time with machine spirit rolls – though that’s less of a risk if it’s the Seniores.

 

In your other lists where the Warbringer is taken as a support titan, that’s fine. It could work with all kinds of maniples and I think maybe that’s the best way to take one of these guys.

 

I’ve been giving some thought to other ways to run Warbringers. Personally I find them quite difficult to equip. They have a quake cannon that wants to be far away matched with Reaver arms, which work best up close. I far prefer the melta and gatling cannons to volcano cannons and turbo lasers on a Reaver titan and I think that still applies to the Warbringer – they’re simply better guns – but they don’t work with the quake cannon. So for my Astorum I think I’d prefer to run them with a Bellicosa, combined with gatling and melta guns, and keep my quake cannons on Warlords.

 

Having said that, I think Legio Defensor could make a really cool Ruptura maniple of two Warbringers and three Reavers. You get to do an alpha strike of a swarm of missiles, followed by pounding things with quake cannons, to seriously mess up the other team’s start. That ought to fit into 1750 points and it will give you a nice advantage to get free moves for your Reavers quite a lot of the time.

 

There are also Fortidas schenanigans. Everyone else has the limitation of only two maniples featuring Warbringers (neither of which has Warlords in boo!). The obvious option is swapping a Venator Reaver for a Warbringer, so as to quake stuff when its shields drop. That’s a lot weaker than using a Warlord though, because of the corridor arc on the Warbringer’s gun. Those free quake shots become difficult to achieve, though a Volcano cannon arm could offer a good fall back option – though a Reaver could do that anyway.

 

But instead, what about taking the Ruptura maniple and messing about with it? Have a Melee Warlord replace a reaver, and advance up the field whenever the Warbringers kill something. Or else do the opposite – replace a Warbringer with a Warlord and have it grant free moves to the Reavers. They can also put a Warlord in an Arcus maniple if they want, so that it doesn’t need line of sight – though that’s more an issue of how to use Warlords than Warbringers. They can also add a Warbringer to a Fortis or Regia maniple, so it can share shields with a Warlord or Reaver.

[Mandragola]

Ok one other thought. Maybe you don’t mind that the quake cannon is inaccurate at short range. It’s only a 20 point gun anyway. And in the maniple with warhounds it only scatters d6 inches, so it probably clips the target anyway and does it’s job.

 

Scattering only d6 inches is great news for a melta cannon. So maybe there’s a slightly counter-intuitive way of running one of these guys, as a midfield shooter throwing blasts around. I expect knights would be pretty unhappy to see a warbringer with quake and double melta, that didn’t need line of sight. That is not a cheap Titan, but it’s a very dangerous one.

 

So maybe quake, melta and Gatling is a good way to run these to get engine kills and get the reavers moving. Bellicosa and melta would be better if you could afford it, though that probably paints too big a target on it due to cost. I guess an idea could be to present melee Reavers as a bigger threat than the Warbringers, so as to draw their fire.

[noigrim]

The best long range warbringer would be equipped with carapace volcano and arm lasers, throw in split fire to aim the volcano towards hidden knights and strip shields with the arms.

[Sherrypie]

The best long range warbringer would be equipped with carapace volcano and arm lasers, throw in split fire to aim the volcano towards hidden knights and strip shields with the arms.

Eh, unless you're going Praesagius those arm lasers aren't hitting much from afar. Full blasts with d6" scatter are probably better in most cases, as the other engines are simply more capable in the stripping duty.

[Mandragola]

I tend to agree with Sherrypie. Laser blasters miss, especially at long range when there's a good chance things are in cover. And firing three draining guns (the bellicosa and laser blasters with shieldbane) is suicidal.

 

I had a better look at the Warbringer's terminal and I've changed my opinion of it as a result. It's tougher than I thought, so it's perfectly capable as a midfield fighter. It doesn't particularly need to hide at the back. It's just that a quake cannon works better from far away.

 

So with a quake cannon, the armament in the box is pretty much fine. Get someone else to take shields out and then throw blasts at them. Maybe even have a second volcano cannon, especially in the maniple where it only scatters d6". A Warbringer skulking at the back won't need to use its reactor for speed or turns most of the time, so it can cool down reasonably reliably.

 

But with a bellicosa you can probably advance to make use of the shorter-ranged reaver guns, which I like a lot more. Gatlings and meltas, especially meltas that don't scatter much, are good. Double gatling and bellicosa sounds like a pretty good option to me, though if you're going close then you could replace a gatling blaster with a laser blaster or melta. I don't think I'd go for double melta, partly due to cost, but also because you want to be able to strip shields and do targeted shots if you need to. Would be fun though!

 

I expect we'll see another sprue with bellicosa, melta and gatling. So as much as I enjoy doing conversions I think I'll wait for that to appear.

[Spleenex]

...I don't think I'd go for double melta, partly due to cost, but also because you want to be able to strip shields and do targeted shots if you need to. Would be fun though!

 

I expect we'll see another sprue with bellicosa, melta and gatling. So as much as I enjoy doing conversions I think I'll wait for that to appear.

 

First, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful responses! Second, the more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a blast-spewing midfield Warbringer. A bellicosa and two meltas, or a melta and a gatling, would be simultaneously absolutely hilarious and terrifying! In terms of points, that's getting you close to Warlord territory -- especially for the dual melta version -- but as you say, its got the armor, voids and reactor to back that up. Essentially, I'd see it being used as a massive distraction Carnifex, albeit one that is a legitimate threat. Set him up about 1/4 - 1/2 of the way down the board and blast away. Your opponent will be forced to deal with it ASAP, leaving your other engines free to focus on the mission. This get doubly nasty in an Arcus maniple, as your 'Bringer can set up in cover, shielding it from reprisal and forcing your opponent to maneuver while your spotter 'Hounds remain fairly free to play to the mission.

 

Fun times!

 

I think initially, I'll be using my bringer as a poor man's support Warlord, either out of the box or with dual volcanoes - set up in a corner, possibly with the reactor battlefield asset nearby. But I am definitely looking forward to trying your midfield 'Bringer out. If nothing else, for the look of horror on my opponent's face! ;D 

[Reyner]

I am tempted to get another one for my Legio Mordaxis force just to give it 5" blast melta and volcano, proper expensive but could be very entertaining with the Arcus (the one with hounds and less scatter) Maniple! :D 

[Mandragola]

I think that if I was going to put dual meltas on a titan then I'd use a Reaver. It's faster, cheaper, and you can put a shield-breaking gun on the roof.

 

The counter-argument is that meltas are fantastic and you should stick them everywhere you possibly can. Right now I think that the best compromise would be gatling, melta and bellicosa. The gatling is a great weapon after all - good for breaking shields and also for targeted shots on melted locations.

[Bromosel]

First of all sorry if I sound to direct, I don't want to offend you, but I don't get the point with list Nr.1.

The idea seems clear to me, but also I think that a sole Warbringer is not enough Firepower in the combination with Warhounds. This list lacks resistance against the firepower other 1.5 k armies have. Also the Warhounds imho bring not enough firepower, to finish of the enemy Fatties in combination with the Warbringer. The Volcanos are nice, but as Mandragola said, it makes the Titan far too hot and they dont have the deadly punch a Bellicosa would have. I think that an Warlord instead of the Warbringer would be the better option or you take 2-3 less Warhounds and field one more Warbringer. Bellicosa in the Carapace would be an Option too.

 

I must also admit that I dont know the Benefit from the Arcus Maniple, but it shall be a huge one.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Bromosel

[noigrim]

Hm problem with twin volcanos is that unless you have astorum you'll overheat pretty soon

[Mandragola]

@Bromsel I’m not sure I fully agree with you about list 1. That Lupercal maniple of plasma/vmb warhounds will do real damage. The list is definitely not just about the Warbringer.

 

That said, I think I’d swap weapons around a bit. Maybe just have a single hound with twin lasers, probably in the Lupercal maniple. It can then do very high-strength targeted shots at a damaged location, which can drop even the largest engines after a blastgun or volcano cannon hit.

 

The only thing is, I’m talking about warhounds here, not warbringers. Lupercal warhounds are great but is there any particular synergy for them and Warbringers? There’s nothing wrong with the list (perhaps apart from overheating) but it doesn’t seem to do anything really new. The Lupercal maniple might prefer to work with some knights that could keep up and protect them from melee, for example.

[Spleenex]

@Bromsel I’m not sure I fully agree with you about list 1. That Lupercal maniple of plasma/vmb warhounds will do real damage. The list is definitely not just about the Warbringer.

 

That said, I think I’d swap weapons around a bit. Maybe just have a single hound with twin lasers, probably in the Lupercal maniple. It can then do very high-strength targeted shots at a damaged location, which can drop even the largest engines after a blastgun or volcano cannon hit.

 

The only thing is, I’m talking about warhounds here, not warbringers. Lupercal warhounds are great but is there any particular synergy for them and Warbringers? There’s nothing wrong with the list (perhaps apart from overheating) but it doesn’t seem to do anything really new. The Lupercal maniple might prefer to work with some knights that could keep up and protect them from melee, for example.

 

Honestly, one reason I went with the Lupercal is because I wanted to see what kind of list I could make @ 1500 including the arcus, and that was the only other maniple that really fit, points-wise. That said, your point is well taken. I think there are definitely synergies between the Lupercal and Arcus, but there are other ways to get similar synergies at this points level, e.g.: dual Venator, or fire-support Warlord and a four-engine Lupercal w/ knights, etc. I think the Arcus/Lupercal list would *work*, but as you say, there's no compelling reason to take it over other options at this point level.

 

So, I suppose the real question we should be asking is what *does* the 'Bringer offer that can't be replicated with existing titans/builds? I'm sure there's some deep, tri-polar chassis/maniple/legio synergies I'm not considering. Thoughts?

[Sherrypie]

Yes: the Bringer makes plans around Ruptura's Reaver surge possible opening a whole new way of maneuver warfare, which is not replicable otherwise. Arcus is a stylistic choice, more or less, if one likes to play with Hounds anyway but desires some midfield meltasupport that cannot be evaded (especially with Mordax and their 5" melta plates, tasty).

[Mandragola]

I also find the Ruptura maniple way more interesting. I think it’ll give it a try, though maybe not before the bellicosa Warbringer comes out. It has the potential to run rings around people. Note that once a turn a reaver can use boosted movement without pushing its reactor, and in addition you get to move all of them if your Warbringers cause catastrophic damage on something. So… not quite so useful against knight households!

 

I think this could be most useful for legios like Vulpa that want to get Reavers into melee. They can also possibly have their Warbringers shoot things right in the face with Bellicosas and quake cannons, if they fancy it (at least until those guns get given the carapace rule that they should probably have). And I’m relatively confident that my Astorum can war march a titan without a reactor push – though not 100%.

 

I think I’ve already talked about Fortidas Schenanigans. Swapping out a Warbringer for a Warlord gives you a significantly better way to get engine kills and run Reavers about the place. But it would be more fun to swap the Reaver out and have a Warlord sprint (somewhat erratically and unpredictably) up field.

 

In comparison I think the idea of throwing blasts around somewhat more accurately is much less exciting. And the Warhounds get basically nothing out of the deal. To me this is your “get a Warbringer on the table” maniple.

[Sherrypie]

 And I’m relatively confident that my Astorum can war march a titan without a reactor push – though not 100%.

 

Yes, since War March forces the roll-two-take-worst when you are called to push. Without pushing, you simply move quick.