Lets Talk: Auxillaries and Greater Good

[Schlitzaf]

So Greater Good brings toys for Tau but it also brings toys for their auxillaries. They are;

Vespid get Reroll Hit on Drop

Psuedo Master Shaper for Kroot (Roll another dice for charge wnd advance so 2d6 pick highest and 3d6 drop lowest for kroot in 6”)

A take cover strategem variation for Kroot

Heroic Intervention Strat for Kroot

Krootox can actually use punch (when chosen to fight, make all models 4 attacks and AP -2)

 

In addition to CA point drops. What does everyone think might kroot and vespids be playable now?

[Panzer]

The Vespid one is really strong.

 

The Kroot ones are ... neat but ultimately won't help a whole lot. The Shaper is still worse than an Ethereal (even if he were a HQ). The boosted cover reads awesome until you realise Kroot are still just T3 and get only a 4+ save even with that one.

The Krootox one is awesome if you manage to get them into melee, though they are pretty squishy for such a big gun they are carrying so that's not very likely.

The Heroic Intervention one is probably by far the most useful one even if it's just to get a free move or to intercept a unit from your opponent that tried to sneak past them.

 

 

Vespid have been good since the Index this edition. The only reason they aren't a competetive choice is because they don't benefit from Sept bonuses imo. The Stratagem makes them even more attractive but I'm not sure it's enough for competetive lists yet since Crisis got buffed a lot as well and despite having lots of cheap units, T'au lists are always short on points it feels.

 

Kroot still suffer from the same problems though. The min sized units are more expensive than the min sized units for Firewarriors aka worse points to CP ratio, they have worse saves, a worse weapon, terrible LD and don't get to benefit from Sept Tenets. The new Stratagems aren't enough to make up for those shortcomings imo, especially because one of the drawbacks is the worse points to CP ratio and Stratagems ... well they cost CP you normally would want to use for other things. 

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I'm still going to bring my Kroots because I love the models and their lore, but I'm not a competetive player so that doesn't really say much anyway. ^^

[Schlitzaf]

How would you fix Kroot then? I still think giving them back extra close from rifle.*

 

*I also think that giving them back options like Sniper Rifles or something

[Charlo]

A full Codex and range of models is how I'd fix em!

[Panzer]

Definitely.

 

Well a minimum size of 5 per unit would make them a lot more attractive regarding their points to CP ratio. Letting them actually do something in melee other than being super squishy Space Marines without weapons would also give them an obvious niche in a T'au army. Some AP-1 and more attacks would go a long way there.

As for the Shaper ... well not sure what they could do since the Ethereal already does pretty much everything they'd want from a HQ. Perhaps a more offensive oriented aura other than just re-rolling wound rolls in melee.

The Krootox are fine as they are, just too expensive. Though it feels like the boost they got via Stratagem might just as well be their default stat on their Datasheet instead.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Panzer

[Guest Triszin]

Any interesting combos with build your own Sept to strengthen auxillaries?

[Dumah]

Auxiliaries don't benefit from Sept Tenets, unfortunately. 

[Panzer]

Any interesting combos with build your own Sept to strengthen auxillaries?

 

None. Auxilliary units still don't benefit from any Sept Tenets.

Though to be fair barely any of them are for infantry in general. Only the +1LD one and the +4" for Assault weapons iirc.

[Schlitzaf]

Anh more warlord traits like Gunship Diplomat?

 

@Panzer honestly speaking a better comparison would be to Catachan. For similar/same points cost, we better gun, hit better in melee & recon/scout move. While losing a save value. Having a Master Shaper a +1 Attack Aura.

 

Also give Shapers, and other Kroot the Scout Ability!

[Panzer]

Anh more warlord traits like Gunship Diplomat?

 

@Panzer honestly speaking a better comparison would be to Catachan. For similar/same points cost, we better gun, hit better in melee & recon/scout move. While losing a save value. Having a Master Shaper a +1 Attack Aura.

 

Also give Shapers, and other Kroot the Scout Ability!

 

Don't forget that Catachan get a TON of support from their Codex while Kroot get NONE. Catachans work in an AM army as a potential core element., Kroot are just a half-arsed afterthought.

Also where does the Master Shaper thing come from? I don't remember anything like that?

[Schlitzaf]

Nowhere but Master Shaper was their OG HQ choice from their White Dwarf. I am saying have a Master Shaper Model/Datasheet who gives +1 attack buff.

[Panzer]

I see. It read like you were listing existing things there, including the Master Shaper. I agree that a +1S aura would do nicely for Kroot and goes with my suggestion to make Kroot more proficient in melee to fill a gap that can't be filled by any T'au unit.

[Schlitzaf]

To be clear Panzer I am/was saying statwise ppm the Kroot aren’t that bad off compared to a similar unit. And that said similar unit/unirs has been made viable via various methods (said methods are Straken & Priests + things), that could provide a baseline/avenue for GW to make viable Kroot.

 

My main solution is we get Master Shapers who give attack or melee aura (or even combine Master Shapers & Shamens for Prayers/Litany. Or Both). And Kroot Rifles give extra close again. The latter espacially I think would be a massive boon. And simple one mechanically apeaking•

[Marshlands]

At 4pts now i would say kroot are pretty good for what yoy get, a cultists cost with +1 move, a free move and S4 shooting and melee which can get into rapid fire fairly quickly and is affected by markerlights. 10 man units are decent vanguard units. Problem is they lack morale tricks to make taking them in large numbers safe, which in turn makes buffing them pretty pointless, but still 4pts seems pretty good for what you get

[Panzer]

4p in a vacuum looks good but when you compare it to Firewarriors which only have half as many models in a minimum size unit, better stuff overall and get all the Codex support they simply fall flat.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Panzer

[Happy-inquisitor]

4p in a vacuum looks good but when you compare it to Firewarriors which only have half as many models in a minimum size unit, better stuff overall and get all the Codex support they simply fall flat.

 

Conversely if you are facing competitive marine armies then they are loaded down with weapons between AP-2 and AP-4. The 4+ save on a Fire Warrior does not get you very far vs marines.

 

Just having more models on the table has served me better in that matchup. Stalker bolt rifles in particular - the most popular marine troops weapon right now - are sort of terrible vs kroot. Not terrible because they can't kill kroot but because it would take that marine all game to come close to killing enough kroot to justify the cost of being there.

 

I can see a role for Breachers with their 5++ from a guardian drone but I am struggling with Strike Teams right now because they are struggling to get a save and cost 7ppm. Kroot are much cheaper for a T3 model that probably gets no save.

[Panzer]

 

4p in a vacuum looks good but when you compare it to Firewarriors which only have half as many models in a minimum size unit, better stuff overall and get all the Codex support they simply fall flat.

 

Conversely if you are facing competitive marine armies then they are loaded down with weapons between AP-2 and AP-4. The 4+ save on a Fire Warrior does not get you very far vs marines.

 

Just having more models on the table has served me better in that matchup. Stalker bolt rifles in particular - the most popular marine troops weapon right now - are sort of terrible vs kroot. Not terrible because they can't kill kroot but because it would take that marine all game to come close to killing enough kroot to justify the cost of being there.

 

I can see a role for Breachers with their 5++ from a guardian drone but I am struggling with Strike Teams right now because they are struggling to get a save and cost 7ppm. Kroot are much cheaper for a T3 model that probably gets no save.

 

 

Yeah but at the same time you still get less CP for your Kroot than if you'd take Firewarriors, you only wound Marines on a 4+ instead of a 3+ with the Kroots shooting compared to the Firewarriors shooting and Kroot don't benefit at all from Sept Tenets unlike Firewarriors. Also the enemy only really has to kill 5 Kroot because the other 5 of a min size unit most likely die from morale anyway.

 

Not to mention that the current competetive T'au lists rather use Breacher anyway.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Aw man I wished they would have brought back Gue'vesa as playable auxiliaries.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

 

Yeah but at the same time you still get less CP for your Kroot than if you'd take Firewarriors, you only wound Marines on a 4+ instead of a 3+ with the Kroots shooting compared to the Firewarriors shooting and Kroot don't benefit at all from Sept Tenets unlike Firewarriors. Also the enemy only really has to kill 5 Kroot because the other 5 of a min size unit most likely die from morale anyway.

 

Not to mention that the current competetive T'au lists rather use Breacher anyway.

 

 

 

The big advantage of Breachers is in the 5++ from the guardian drones - but if you take drones the squad then becomes more expensive than Kroot so you are paying more points for the CP. Minimum Breacher or Strike squads are just less durable than minimum kroot squads in an environment where the most common enemy troops are usually putting out AP-2 shooting. If the game shifts back to massed AP0 shooting then of course the Strike/Breacher squads without guardian drone get more viable.

 

Kroot also now have a built-in defence against being wrapped - the heroic intervention strat is very powerful in that regard. The unit being charged will hardly ever be the one getting wrapped - kroot are good at dying and so very hard to trap when you are hitting them - it was always the next unit across. 

 

Fire Warriors of all kinds still have far better synergies and strats for damage output but there are balancing strengths for the kroot now. which there were not before.

 

But then I like left-field stuff; I even think Aun'Va is worth taking if you have a kroot-heavy list. You do get serious morale shenanigans that way - note for example that the moral reroll is not just for failed rolls - you can deliberately use it to try to fail morale if that is what you need to avoid being wrapped.