Dark Angels Knights Cenobium rise!

[Aztek]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/14/forge-world-pre-order-some-dark-angels-love/

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Dark-Angels-Legion-Inner-Circle-Knights-2020

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//Inner_Circle_Knights_Cenobium.pdf

 

The rules look good and the models are fantastic. Not sure what's going on with the reroll overwatch rule as they're in cataphractii but whatever, maybe it also goes on another unit. I'm super excited!

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Their rules seem sort of lackluster to me, and there's no reason to select any Order besides 'Augurs of Weakness' or 'Reapers of Hosts'. Maybe, just maybe 'Hunters of Beasts', but the other four Orders will never see any use I guess.

There's hoping these are just test rules and they'll be refined some more.

Free Thunder Hammers are okay on them.

Plasma Flame rule is just weird, since, as you pointed out already, Cataphractii are not able to fire overwatch at all. 

Worst of all ... no Implacable Advance = no scoring.

 

In terms of models, the guys with the hooded helmets / rebreathers do look kinda nice, but the icons on the back and the blades / covering on the plasma casters look slightly over the top.

Squad leader looks just silly IMHO.

[m_r_parker]

Rules-wise, I'm a little disappointed that they're 1W models when there's an abundance of 2W terminator units in other legions. The Cataphractii / overwatch weirdness seems like a bit of an oversight. Part of me hopes these are pseudo-experimental rules and will be corrected before release, the other part of me acknowledges that if this is the case then it's a long time before the book gets released. I think the estimate is ~2+ months from handing over the contents to getting it made and shipped back from China. 

 

Model-wise they're very pretty. Maybe some of the detail is a little OTT, I'm interested to see whether the wing-shields are separate from the main shoulder pad - because those will go when I get mine, and replaced with a transfer on the otherwise barren pad. But lots of the other details are very fun, and probably a difficult balance between fun to paint and annoying just on those details alone. 

 

But hey, 2 squads have been ordered and no doubt a plog here will shortly follow. I'll also be interested to see how they stack up against the Praetor in Cataphractii armour. It feels against the grain that FW release a Praetor and an elite Termi unit in the same model of armour, but for the 1st Legion the older armour (which I believe Cataphractii is the older than Tartaros and regular 40k Termi armour whose name eludes me right now - begins with 'O'?) seems to be the right aesthetic. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I doubt other legions will keep their special terminators at 2 wounds in the next iteration of the Legions Army List.

[Darkwrath121]

According to staff at the Open Day event back in November, it was already being set up ahead of printing (reprographics?), so I don't think they'll be able to correct any rules weirdness seen here, sadly. Edited February 14, 2020 by Darkwrath121

[ShadowCore67]

When exactly are you supposed to pick the order?

 

"Before the start of play" is pretty vague. Do you pick it when list building or is it more similar to AL where you can see your opponent's list and then decide?

[Cris R]

I play mostly ZM, so these models with actually fit well with my DA ZM list. I also love the models, so it's a insta-buy for me. That said, my list currently has a Cataphractii Command Squad, so I see some pros and cons with trading this unit with the Cenobium Squad:

 

Command Squad

 

Pros 

• Significantly more weapon options, including AP 2 ones
• Being attached a HQ increases the number of attacks the entire unit can dish out
• Can take Stasis Shells through a combi-weapon with a grenade launcher
• Cheaper than Cenobium units
• Has Chosen rules and Fearless buff for all units within 6 inches

 

Cons

• The unit only has access to one multi-use plasma weapon
• Mastery of the Blade may not kick in for units with WS 6+, especially if you're not using Stasis Shells
• Limited to five models

 

Cenobium Squad

 

Pros

 

• More likely Mastery of the Blade will kick in for stronger units through the Order Preceptor's WS 6 stat
• Throwing out a base level of 2 attacks with the Terranic Great swords at initiative isn't bad
• Everything has a plasma weapon and the unit can access a free Thunder Hammer
• Has the Order Exemplar rules, Stubborn, and Adamantium Will
• Can expand to a squad of ten models

 

Cons

• Has the same wound profile as a Command Squad while being more expensive
• AP 3 weapons will struggle against TEQs and stronger units

I'm sure there are other things people can point out for pros and cons but a Command Squad gives you more versatility whereas the Cenobiums have a narrower role in a list. The one way Cenobiums have more versatility is through the Order Exemplar rules, but those come at the expense of not taking a broader array of weapons. This conclusion is pretty obvious but it's a good exercise to see where these guys can fit in your list.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Cris R

[Elzender]

Well, you have to take into consideration the option of free thunder hammers, which are ap2, trigger instant death to T4, and can concuss bigger enemies. It comes at the expense of mastery of the blade, but with WS5 (6 for the squad leader) you might not need it that often, and the command squad does not have many weapon options that triggers it (if I'm not misremembering, only power swords, and terranic greatsword for the ancient?). I guess the choice will mostly depend on the enemies you're facing, but the order selection can always give you a bit more specialisation on the role you want to give the unit. I guess having a 2/3 ratio of hammers to swords would give you some flexibility to then choose the order according to the specific army you're facing. At any rate, take into account that this squad is likely to inflict melee instant death through either double strength or the greatsword rules, which nullifies FNP and multiwound miniatures. If you're facing mechanicum or daemons, they will not like this squad at all. Edited February 14, 2020 by Elzender

[Cris R]

I edited the original post to note the Thunder Hammer option and the versatility you can get from the Order rules. The Thunder Hammer is a major selling point and probably an auto-include since you’ve already sunk 275 points into the unit and want to maximize everything you can get out of it. Mastery of the Blade extends to all swords save for Power ones, so that’s not an issue here. Edited February 14, 2020 by Cris R

[Elzender]

Wait, it does not apply to power swords? I thought it was for all sword-shaped weapons (so chain, power, great swords, and I guess sword-based paragon blades?).

 

Regarding the choice of melee weapons for the command squad, is it really an advantage when compared to cenobium? The knights have S8 ap2 or S6 ap3 available, arguably the two main sweet points for melee weaponry. Other than power claws for mulching power armour, I don't recall any option for command squads that are better than what cenobium can take (and even then we'd have to see the numbers, the S6 on the greatswords really helps the wounds go through, and they might trigger blade mastery). It is true, however, that the command squad has the advantage of ranged weaponry, specially with the stasis shells you've mentioned. The plasma weaponry on the cenobium looks terrifying at first with ap2, ignore cover and assault 2, but BS4 and S4 really limit their potential other than for killing regular power armour, which is probably better for the sake of balance.

 

The command squad's banner aura might be helpful as well for nearby units (cenobium are Ld9/10 with stubborn, they will likely die before they fail a Ld test), so it will depend on whether you want the unit to go on their own to hunt the biggest and meanest threat or whether you want to go for a coordinated assault.

[Aztek]

"Mastery of the Blade: When fighting in an assault with one of the following weapons: combat blade, chainsword, heavy chainsword, power sword, Terranic greatsword, Calibanite war blade and paragon blades modelled as swords, and when fighting a model with an equal WS, a model with this special rule strikes on a 3."

[Cris R]

Thanks for the correction Aztek! I think the main advantage that Command Squads have in melee is taking Powerfists and Chainfists. That's going to pose more of a threat to more units, especially if you're going with Chainfists and/or pair the squad with some solid ranged options. I agree with your analysis about the plasma weapons on the Cenobiums. They could have been stronger but that would have created an op'd unit.

 

Edit: Updated analysis of benefits of Powerfists and Chainfists.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Cris R

[Elzender]

True, I forgot chainfists, that will certainly help against dreads and knights, although I'm not sure where the strength 10 comes from? I guess that if leviathans, cortus and knights are prevalent in your games it's risky for your melee units to run around without any antitank capability (thunderhammers can still damage them, but chainfists certainly would make dreads think twice before getting stuck into melee). I guess you could compensate it with a chainfist-equipped character attached to the squad, which would likely guarantee the dread getting hit back with good positioning + Look out sir. As for knights, I'm not sure if melee is the wisest option against them, but then again I don't have any real experience playing 30K to be able to have a real opinion on this.

 

 

Edit: well, if we're talking ZM (my bad, forgot about that part on your original post), then knights are not something to worry about. As for dreads, yeah, you probably want some chainfist in your melee units to stop them from rampaging through them. So, either you dedicate a character to it or you pray thunder hammers are enough to do the job.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Elzender

[SkimaskMohawk]

This is a great unit, one of the rare legion elite that excels at fighting things other than just the legions. The swords allow you to threaten mechanicum and daemons, which are easily the strongest factions in the game, while the guns are good against the legions for digging elite units out of cover. The thunderhammers gives them the flexibility to go after different targets. There's obviously a few orders that are more optimal, but again, it's versatile. Daemons don't care at all about the vehicle one; most of all mechanicum units are toughness 5, while the bonus attack ones are basically just dependant on what's the more probable. Not having implacable would be more of a problem if they didn't become troops from pride

[Cris R]

Corrected the profile for the weapons above. My command squad for my ZM list is Power Axes x3 and Chainfists x2, which is what I could work with the 1,000 point limit. That would at least make it more of a threat to TEQs and MEQs. 

 

But back to the thread's topic, we haven't mentioned that Terranic Greatswords have Instant Death, so that's a major advantage of Cenobiums over other Terminators. Obviously the conditions to trigger Instant Death are specific, but five terminators wielding swords with this ability definitely makes them more threatening to certain units.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Cris R

[The Ironic Warrior]

The swords are really powerful melee weapons, and the free thunderhammers are just lovely. AP2 boltguns is hilarious and just makes them a little meaner up close to marines really, but I think they are pretty solid, and for their points they're great. Elites mean Pride of the Legion is a really tasty go-to, and considering that either Dreadwing will make them troops (maybe, I don't know - not a DA player), or Lion will, it's a moot point claiming no implacable advance is a hidrance to them.

It's too early to speculate accurately, so looking at them right now they are solid.

Edited February 14, 2020 by The Ironic Warrior

[Aias]

(which I believe Cataphractii is the older than Tartaros and regular 40k Termi armour whose name eludes me right now - begins with 'O'?)

 

You are correct, Cataphractii is the oldest mark of Terminator armor. And the regular 40k one is Indomitous-pattern

[Cris R]

Looking over the rules again, we also forgot to mention these units have Plasma weapons without Gets Hot. FW could nerf this, but that’s a pretty significant benefit when looking at other Terminator units for your DA list.

[Marshal Rohr]

I was thinking about this after perusing the Crusade and Heresy group on Facebook, where people were pointing out Cataphractii can’t overwatch and here where people are talking about 2W terminators. It got me wondering if a rules update isn’t going to come out *with* or very close to the release of Crusade. There’s no way the authors don’t know or totally missed Cataphractii can’t overwatch given they have been playing the game personally in the past year (Anuj just played a game with Lernaen Terminators on Twitch). I’d bet Terminator Armor rules get an overhaul.

[rendingon1+]

Pure swords unit will annihilate any full automata unit in one turn (bar thanatar), when combined with rad grenades. My single ravenwing praetor managed to kill 4 castellax on a charge (ravenwing luck, rad grenades and reroll to wounds, sure). He had 6 attacks and these guys with reapers have 20 on a turn they charge. There's no way any thallax, domitar or castellax could live through that. Literally Titan level killing power.

 

Plasma ca

Edited February 15, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Cris R]

I was thinking about this after perusing the Crusade and Heresy group on Facebook, where people were pointing out Cataphractii can’t overwatch and here where people are talking about 2W terminators. It got me wondering if a rules update isn’t going to come out *with* or very close to the release of Crusade. There’s no way the authors don’t know or totally missed Cataphractii can’t overwatch given they have been playing the game personally in the past year (Anuj just played a game with Lernaen Terminators on Twitch). I’d bet Terminator Armor rules get an overhaul.

So at the top of the thread you said 2 wound terminators would likely go down to 1. Anything other thoughts on what else might come? I agree that the wound profile for terminators might look like those for Command Squads or the Cenobium Terminators (2 wound leader/1 wound all other terminators). But curious to hear what else you think might be coming down the pike.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think they will revamp and re-evaluate the price of Legion special units from the ground up in the next Legion red book for sure and bring all the similar units into some kind of level field. Justaerin balanced to Lernaeans balances to Cenobim, etc. they’re gonna probably redo the points for basic units (breachers become cheaper, for example) and hopefully they will revisit some generic Rites to make them more appealing. I think Cataphractii Armor will be able to overwatch (I can understand the movement restrictions but no overwatch seems a little much). Mainly, the large blobs of troops choices backed by dreadnaught types and tanks seem to be the calling card of the Heresy and they will lean into that with all troops choices getting their prices adjusted to be within spitting distance of each other. Breachers go down in price closer to tactical squads, and their ‘benefit’ is a trade off between fury of the legion and improved tankiness in CC. Assault squads trade off is mobility for shooting output. That kind of thing.

 

My longshot theory is that the way The core rules are written will move away from 7th and into something totally new. Like the way the Arquitor with Spicula fires will probably become the way all blast weapons work. Instead of four small blasts, quad mortars will shoot a 5” blast anywhere and anything under the blast is hit. I think they’ll get rid of hull points or rework them and the entire psychic phase will change significantly. I also would t be surprised if some things from 8th came over in different forms like a movement value for each individual unit and keywords. I don’t think command points will come in as they are in 40k but something like Gang Tactics May come in some form.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Cris R]

My only comment on that point is that the debate over whether 30k should stay with 7th overlooks the possibility that you can take ideas from other GW systems like the Gang Tactics from Necromunda. I’d actually would be curious to see what ideas they could crib from the latest version of Apocalypse, which had some interesting concepts that could translate over to large scale games like 30k. Anyways, just a thought.

 

But returning to the thread, I want to see if the Cenobiums have swords attached to the arms. I’m not afraid to take off the swords to put on Thunder Hammers but it would be more convenient if they weren’t attached. It’ll probably be fused into one piece but the modeler in me can hope.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Cris R

[Gorgoff]

My only comment on that point is that the debate over whether 30k should stay with 7th overlooks the possibility that you can take ideas from other GW systems like the Gang Tactics from Necromunda. I’d actually would be curious to see what ideas they could crib from the latest version of Apocalypse, which had some interesting concepts that could translate over to large scale games like 30k. Anyways, just a thought.

 

But returning to the thread, I want to see if the Cenobiums have swords attached to the arms. I’m not afraid to take off the swords to put on Thunder Hammers but it would be more convenient if they weren’t attached. It’ll probably be fused into one piece but the modeler in me can hope.

The hands are not attached to the arms.

Source: looked at the unpainted miniatures.

[Laughingman]

I don't get what people are complaining about, I play 30K dark angels, they are a flat out upgrade over legion terminators, if there was anything to complain about it would be the fact they don't have implacable advance (scoring) for some reason.