What if "Outrider" isn't the bikes, but the 2020 chamber?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

(SPOILER ALERT: Yes, I know that if I'm right about this, it means that the 2021 Primaris chamber is probably going to be designated as the "Spearhead" release wave. Speculation on that below).

 

So I've been thinking about this whole "Outrider" spoiler from Fist of the Imperium. I notice in reading the passage that the one character is referred to as an "Outrider" and an "Outrider sergeant," which kind of seems to suggest that the bike squad he's part of would actually be named "Outriders."

 

But does it really?

 

What if GW's "five year plan" for rolling out the Primaris included release waves (or "chambers" in Sigmarspeak) that were all named after the various non-standard detachment types in 8th edition?

 

"Vanguard" was an obvious name for the "scout" range.

 

Could "Outrider" just be the overall term for the expansion of the Assault or Fast Attack elements? We did see the word "Vanguard" used very liberally in the initial stages of the 2019 wave, only being mostly supplanted by "Phobos" (specifically referring to the armor everyone but the Suppressors wore) later on. So it would fit with how "Outrider" was used in the Fist of the Imperium references.

 

Looking at that pixelated photo leak, we see the obvious bikes and speeders, which would certainly fit under the thematic umbrella of a wave dedicated to Assault marines. As would a multi-part Suppressor kit, which I would think is part of this year's wave. I can't imagine GW waiting two years between the introduction of a monopose unit and the appearance of the multi-part kit. Not impossible, but I think it will show up this year.

 

And if so, there's a good chance - as a lot of people before me have speculated - that it will be a multi-build kit like the Infiltrators/Incursors and will also give us a squad more like the classic Assault Marines. And possibly even triple duty if it allows for those Assault equivalents to take melee weapons a la Vanguard Veterans.

 

But would GW do an entire year's release wave focused purely on Fast Attack units? Probably not, but then again they cheated a little with the "Vanguard" chamber, too. Suppressors were NOT part of the sneaky Vanguard. They were just the first of the loud, non-Vanguard to come running when everything hit the fan and it was time to "go loud."

 

So maybe we''ll see those Primaris "Breachers" that were shown in the Iron Hands Supplement with the chainswords and shields. They definitely wouldn't be Fast Attack, but they would be Close Support and their inclusion could be justified by saying that they like to deploy into the thick of the fighting via fast-moving transports (perhaps even, though I doubt it will happen this year, a Primaris flying transport).

 

The only question would be whether they'd also release a Primaris Lieutenant in Omnis-pattern armor to hang out with the Assault-equivalents, or give us one with a melee weapon and shield to stick with the Breacher-types. But let's be honest, they'll probably just do both.

 

And yeah, that would mean that 2021 would bring us the Spearhead chamber, which would give us some more Gravis goodness, maybe a Siege Redemptor, the hinted Hellfuries (assuming they aren't worked in this year), a flying gunship, and some twist on the Vindicator/Whirlwind/Thunderfire Cannon, something to justify the Primaris Techmarine actually showing up for work.

 

(EDIT: Also, if we got a plastic super-heavy that was an actual Cawl joint - unlike the Astraeus - this would be the spot for it).

 

Thoughts?

Edited February 14, 2020 by Lord Nord

[eternal_warrior12]

That..... makes a ton of sense. There’s no room for that on the internet! Don’t you know we make knee jerk reactions and cling to them bitterly even in the face of overwhelming oppositional evidence.

 

Ok I kid but I’d be damn excited if that’s the case. The Vanguard range was dope as hell and if we eventually come to the “Devastator” chamber I tremble to see when could possibly be more killy than hellblasters.

[Red_Shift]

It does make a ton of sense, especially as it implies at least two further waves of releases with elites and heavy support. The primaris bike in Fist of the Imperium was a bit boring though, being just an up sized space marine bike. I hope a plastic kit will be more interesting but we shall see.

[Black_Cat_41]

Also, conveniently enough  "Outrider Detachment" is the name of the Fast Attack detachment.

[Schlitzaf]

Also, conveniently enough "Outrider Detachment" is the name of the Fast Attack detachment.

And Vangaurd name of tje Elite Detachment. So Spearhead for “Gravis” Units, just food for thought.

[jaxom]

According to Jes Goodwin the Primaris range was designed around the armour types and Dark Imperium was a cross-section of those concepts. The Vanguard release was almost all Phobos units. We've seen hints of what may come for a stand-alone Gravis character box (options from Dark Imperium, Feirros and Tor both have Signum and an over-the-shoulder gun mount). Also, from the Phobos range, there seems to be another axis of organization: battle role. Multiple studio and written sources have said each 'codex astartes' squad type can swap between armours to switch their 'designation' squad type. Here's what we have so far:

 

Battle Line - Intercessors (Tacticus), Infiltrators (Phobos)

Close Support - Reivers (Phobos), Incursor (Phobos), Inceptor (Gravis)

Fire Support - Hellblasters (Tacticus), Suppressors (Omnis), Aggressor (Gravis), Eliminators (Phobos)

 

I italicized the Vanguard release units to show how they follow the pattern. Note how the Tacticus is not at all represented in Close Support. A Primaris bike unit would fit there perfectly (old school bike squads are already classified as Close Support). Personally, I've always felt the IH Breacher art was artistic license, but one could see it as a good fit for an Omnis armour Battle Line squad (up armoured like the Mk3 Iron Armour to the Mk2 Crusade Armour). The Gravis style lower legs (not visible in the art) would be good for a shield wall holding ground and the little arm on the reactor pack matches Feirros and Tor, except no gun.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

Also, conveniently enough "Outrider Detachment" is the name of the Fast Attack detachment.

And Vangaurd name of tje Elite Detachment. So Spearhead for “Gravis” Units, just food for thought.

 

 

Yeah, I pointed that out in the OP.

 

IF 2020 is the Outrider wave, then 2021 would be the Spearhead wave.

 

After that... well, that might actually be it for the main range. We've already seen nine different squad types. I speculated three more for 2020 (the MPK Suppressors wouldn't count as I already included them in the existing nine). If 2021 brought an additional three, that would be a total of fifteen different squad types accessible to all chapters. That might be as far as GW wants to go, with subsequent years offering possibly more vehicles and more characters in different armor types (Gravis Chaplain! Omnis Chaplain!) and also the beginnings of chapter-specific squad kits (Primaris Thunderwolves).

Edited February 15, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

It does make a ton of sense, especially as it implies at least two further waves of releases with elites and heavy support. The primaris bike in Fist of the Imperium was a bit boring though, being just an up sized space marine bike. I hope a plastic kit will be more interesting but we shall see.

 

I'm not sure they'd do a release concentrating on Elites. The Reivers were actually bumped up to appear in the initial wave, otherwise they'd have appeared in the Vanguard wave along with all the other Phobos stuff. I expect that we'll just see Elite units mixed in with the next couple of waves. Wouldn't mind being wrong, though.

 

And I definitely agree on the bikes.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

It does make a ton of sense, especially as it implies at least two further waves of releases with elites and heavy support. The primaris bike in Fist of the Imperium was a bit boring though, being just an up sized space marine bike. I hope a plastic kit will be more interesting but we shall see.

I'm not sure they'd do a release concentrating on Elites. The Reivers were actually bumped up to appear in the initial wave, otherwise they'd have appeared in the Vanguard wave along with all the other Phobos stuff. I expect that we'll just see Elite units mixed in with the next couple of waves. Wouldn't mind being wrong, though.

 

And I definitely agree on the bikes.

We already had the “Elite” Wave. Vangaurd/Phobos.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

It does make a ton of sense, especially as it implies at least two further waves of releases with elites and heavy support. The primaris bike in Fist of the Imperium was a bit boring though, being just an up sized space marine bike. I hope a plastic kit will be more interesting but we shall see.

I'm not sure they'd do a release concentrating on Elites. The Reivers were actually bumped up to appear in the initial wave, otherwise they'd have appeared in the Vanguard wave along with all the other Phobos stuff. I expect that we'll just see Elite units mixed in with the next couple of waves. Wouldn't mind being wrong, though.

 

And I definitely agree on the bikes.

We already had the “Elite” Wave. Vangaurd/Phobos.

 

 

We had the *Vanguard* wave, which only featured a single Elite unit well after the Shadowspear box set came out. I'd expect an equal or greater number of Elite units in subsequent waves so kind of tough to consider Vanguard the "Elite" wave.

 

Like I said in the OP, IF I'm actually onto their "chamber" labelling, I think it would be as much a case of following the Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead naming convention as it is literally matching them to the Battlefield roles those detachments feature. With the Vanguard, they went for the literal definition of the word instead, which matched up to Scouts pretty well.

 

That said, having fleshed out the "scout" portion of the army, they've set themselves up pretty well to feature Fast Attack units in an Outrider wave and Heavy Support units in a Spearhead wave, with Elites and Troop units mixed into both, along with whatever other miscellaneous stuff they want to throw at us.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Kallas]

We do already have Aggressors, Reivers, Redemptor, Invictor, Ancient, and Apothecary. That's already the most heavily populated force org slot by Primaris, besides HQ.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

We do already have Aggressors, Reivers, Redemptor, Invictor, Ancient, and Apothecary. That's already the most heavily populated force org slot by Primaris, besides HQ.

 

That's a good point and I should have mentioned it.

 

Also, a nice and quite possibly intended effect of going for successive release waves of Vanguard, Outrider and Spearhead is that this is exactly how a typical Astartes operation would unfold.

 

Who does the enemy encounter first? The Vanguard. The sneaky bois. The marines who get in and conduct recon, sabotage, and/or the odd assassination. The guys you don't even know you're facing until they start lighting you up.

 

THEN who shows up? The Outriders. The Fast Attack units. The guys who are noisier and less stealthy than the scouts, but who can zip into battle quickly once the signal is given.

 

And THEN you finally meet the Spearhead. The Heavy Support. The slower, more plodding units and vehicles who can't deploy as silently as the scouts or as rapidly as the Outriders, but who bring the firepower to more than make up for their slower speed.

 

IF that's part of GW's concept for the Primaris rollout, then it would make sense that they don't do a dedicated Troop or Elite wave. It's tough to actually construct a narrative that would explain a Troop-heavy wave or an Elite wave. But Scout-heavy, Assault-heavy, and Devastator-heavy waves practically write themselves. Troop and Elite units just make far more sense mixed in with the waves that DO have a distinct character from one another.

[Ishagu]

We've have the general guys, and the sneaky guys.

 

Next two waves will be fast moving guys, and eventually the tough, bulky guys.

[Hellebras]

 

IF that's part of GW's concept for the Primaris rollout, then it would make sense that they don't do a dedicated Troop or Elite wave. It's tough to actually construct a narrative that would explain a Troop-heavy wave or an Elite wave. But Scout-heavy, Assault-heavy, and Devastator-heavy waves practically write themselves. Troop and Elite units just make far more sense mixed in with the waves that DO have a distinct character from one another.

 

A dedicated "Elite wave" could actually make sense after all those bases you mentioned are covered. This would be veterans and command elements, as I see it. Units like Primaris company veterans, finishing filling out the command characters (I'd expect company champions in here), and something flashy like Primaris terminators or terminator-equivalents.

[DistractionTacMarine]

We've have the general guys, and the sneaky guys.

 

Next two waves will be fast moving guys, and eventually the tough, bulky guys.

I feel like Aggressors and Centurions already fill the role of tough bulky guys.

[Hymnblade]

Centurions aren't Primaris.

 

Aggressors do fit that role, but Inceptors fit the fast-moving role, yet apparently we're getting more there. Hopefully, at some point we will have more than one Primaris option for heavy armor/weapons too - Gravis variants, Hellblaster variants, a Primaris Vindicator, who knows?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

IF that's part of GW's concept for the Primaris rollout, then it would make sense that they don't do a dedicated Troop or Elite wave. It's tough to actually construct a narrative that would explain a Troop-heavy wave or an Elite wave. But Scout-heavy, Assault-heavy, and Devastator-heavy waves practically write themselves. Troop and Elite units just make far more sense mixed in with the waves that DO have a distinct character from one another.

 

A dedicated "Elite wave" could actually make sense after all those bases you mentioned are covered. This would be veterans and command elements, as I see it. Units like Primaris company veterans, finishing filling out the command characters (I'd expect company champions in here), and something flashy like Primaris terminators or terminator-equivalents.

 

 

I just don't think there will be any need to put those units off from either an Outrider or Spearhead wave, though. All of those units you mentioned would work as part of the Spearhead wave so the only reason to leave them for a future "Elite" wave would be if GW already had so much stuff planned for their Spearhead wave that those Elite units just wouldn't fit. And that would mean they were planning on doing more than fifteen or sixteen different Primaris squad types, which I just don't see. That would surpass the number of squad types currently available to the generic Precursor line, a line that already has three different flavors of Terminator armor, as well as two different squad types just based on the generic TDA type.

 

My final guesstimated tally for the number of squads broken down by armor type is something like this:

 

Phobos: 4 (I don't expect we'll get any more, unless they surprise me and do a Vanguard Scout Bike unit).

 

Omnis: 2 (Aside from Suppressors, I think there'll be options for melee and medium-power ranged weapons. But I think they'll be the same unit a la Reivers' options).

 

Tacticus: 5 (Just targeting that number as I expect the "standard" armor will also appear in the most squad types, though that's not necessary given that Intercessors alone would account for roughly half of a Primaris chapter).

 

Gravis: 4

 

That's fifteen squad types total, of which we already have nine. And I can't see them going with less than three new squad types in each wave, no matter how many vehicles or characters they introduce at the same time.

 

So that gives us two more expansion waves, unless I'm significantly underestimating their target number of squad types (if I'm off by one or two, that's not enough to justify an additional wave. They'd just sprinkle them onto the next two waves). OR I could be wrong about the minimum number of new squad types they'd introduce per wave. But that really seems to be their bread and butter with the Space Marine line, so it would be a significant deviation for them to suddenly just offer up two new squad types in a wave.

 

So obviously it's just speculation on my part that we'll only see two more waves, but I think offering a further Elite wave would require watering down the next couple. And I certainly expect that they'll continue to roll out new character models afterward, but even then I don't see them making us wait until 2022 for a Company Champion model. I think the standard versions of all the characters will at least be out by next year, but the Gravis and JumpPack versions could trickle out after that and of course some characters won't get those at all.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Indomitus]

I think it's worth noting that Jes Goodwin said there was a heavy armour - not Gravis - when he was interviewed about Shadowspear.

[Marshal Reinhard]

As far as I recall, it's a bit of a stretch to say the heavy version is definately not Gravis.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I haven't listened to that Voxcast episode since the week it came out (maybe even the day it came out). I tried to give it a listen last night but got distracted and wound up just shutting it off until I can actually focus on it.

 

I didn't hear him specifically say there was another HEAVY armor type (unless it was when he was talking about Inceptor armor, which he clearly differentiates from Gravis). But I DID hear him very strongly hint that we haven't seen all of the armor types yet.

 

So it certainly seems like there's at least one new armor type still to come. And he may indeed have specified that there's another heavy armor type out there, I just missed it if he did.

[Dracos]

As far as I recall, it's a bit of a stretch to say the heavy version is definately not Gravis.

 

Agreed ... unless they have a Primaris Centurion style unit coming out. Which would be ridiculous ... ly expensive points and cash wise. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Well, nice to know Valrak's reading the thread, even if he did forget to include a link to it like he said he was going to :)

[WrathOfTheLion]

Jes Goodwin said not to discount that there could be more than the currently shown MK X armor types more than once in the voxcast. I doubt he would reiterate that multiple times unless it was true.

[Dracos]

I’m curious if that interview was before or after the Suppressor armor was released?

 

I’m not totally discounting the idea of a heavier armor, and would welcome Gravis with an Invulnerable Save 5+ ... that can teleport. At that point though you can stick a fork in Terminators and call them done. With my luck they’ll give them assault bolters making my Aggressor conversion a wysiwyg issue :(

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I’m curious if that interview was before or after the Suppressor armor was released?

 

During. It was concurrent with the Shadowspear release. All of the units had been shown by that point and Jes went into detail about each one, including the Suppressors.