Using cheap supplies

[lordsloth]

I was walking through the dollar store (well .. euro store, but you get the idea) and I saw they had some pretty cheap art supplies. I snagged some brushes and things for the rough paintwork but I also noticed they have cheap acrylic paints meant for canvas painting. You know, this kind of stuff.

 

 

I'm assuming this stuff comes out of the tube like toothpaste but I was wondering if, with enough thinner, this could be used for rough drybrushing terrain after priming with vallejo or badger surface primer. For example the base undercoat on a set of rusty mechanicum terrain that you would normally do with mournefang brown before you start hitting it with the ryza rust and leadbelcher and all that. Does anybody have experience with using this kind of stuff? Does it react poorly when you start drybrushing citadel/vallejo style paints onto it or does it behave?

 

Another thing I noticed was that they have this stuff called 'pouring medium' which a quick google search tells me is meant for making acrylics like the above more liquid for some painting technique where you pour onto a canvas.

 

Does this stuff have any use in our hobby? Compared to a pot of lahmian medium it is dirt cheap, The above 500ml bottle was like 2 euros or something.

 

Another thing I was wondering about while we are on the subject of being a cheapskate, what is the difference between relatively expensive airbrush thinner and regular old synthetic thinner from the hardware store?

 

If anybody has any experience with these kinds of products (or suggestions of other products that actually work and don't break the bank) I'd be well interested in hearing about them. I've only come to painting minis relatively recently so could use some sage advice from experienced folk

[Captain_Krash]

eeeek I spend enough on the models. I would never touch this stuff. Army Painter are great paints IMO I would suggest looking there for a cheaper alternative than GW

 

Krash

Edited February 17, 2020 by Captain_Krash

[lordsloth]

eeeek I spend enough on the models. I would never touch this stuff. Army Painter are great paints IMO I would suggest looking there for a cheaper alternative than GW

 

Krash

 

Yeah army painter is fine and reasonably priced. Ive used it before and will likely use it again for stuff.

I was just curious when I saw this stuff in the stor eis all, was wondering if it could have any application at all.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I'm assuming this stuff comes out of the tube like toothpaste but I was wondering if, with enough thinner, this could be used for rough drybrushing terrain after priming with vallejo or badger surface primer. For example the base undercoat on a set of rusty mechanicum terrain that you would normally do with mournefang brown before you start hitting it with the ryza rust and leadbelcher and all that.

I've never used it, but it would probably be fine (I assume it's the "heavy body" "toothpaste" artists acrylic).  I know Lukes Aps on YouTube uses sample pots of Pebeo acrylic paint from the pound shop for scenery projects.  Best thing you could do is glue some sand to some cereal packet, and try painting it with the "el cheapo" paint - worst case, you waste a little paint.

 

 

Another thing I noticed was that they have this stuff called 'pouring medium' which a quick google search tells me is meant for making acrylics like the above more liquid for some painting technique where you pour onto a canvas.  Does this stuff have any use in our hobby? Compared to a pot of lahmian medium it is dirt cheap, The above 500ml bottle was like 2 euros or something.

Can't comment.  Vallejo's thinner (from their artist's range) is £10 for 500ml ... I think I'd be inclined to look in that direction if you wanted large quantities of it (they also do 60ml pots for around £4.50 if you want less industrial quantities of it)

 

Another thing I was wondering about while we are on the subject of being a cheapskate, what is the difference between relatively expensive airbrush thinner and regular old synthetic thinner from the hardware store?

I think airbrush thinner is water, IPA, and glycerine..? https://youtu.be/QpgEDMQyz0s?t=260

Edited February 17, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[infyrana]

I picked up some Winsor & Newton glazing medium, as it's a lot cheaper per quantity yet still a well known brand and will serve a specific purpose like their oil paints for washes.

 

The specifics on pigmentation / composition etc will be what gives other paints different characteristics to what we normally use. So you might find it flows or wears differently etc, let alone the colour comparisons. A small example would be me trying to dry brush with a Tamiya paint vs GW, the Tamiya likes to stay wet on the brush regardless of what I do to wipe off the excess etc.

 

Best of luck with your experimentation:)

[MegaVolt87]

That kind of paint would be good enough to do terrain with. I don't see any grey though, its not 40k terrain without that grey IMO. 

[Arkhanist]

There are a few differences between our paints and cheap artist acrylics.(as opposed to 'pro' artists acrylics) - the main one is pigment quantity and quality. Pigment is the expensive bit in paint, so cheap paint will have coarser ground pigment, and less of it. Fine when used in larger quantities, but coverage and graininess will be an issue when thinned down to be used on something at 28mm scale. It will likely be less robust than model paint as they cheap out on the binder too.

 

For terrain like scratch built craters and ruins etc, it'll do fine, and craft paints are often preferred for that sort of project because the cost per ml is so much lower an extra coat or two doesn't matter. For the mechanicus type terrain, with all its fiddly bits, it will obscure some detail and leave the higher edges less well covered. For something that is going to be heavily weathered/rusted, eh, it should probably do fine. It may be possible to airbrush it with a big nozzle and a lot of dilution, but I suspect clogging will be an issue.

 

Pouring medium is intended for greatly thinning the paint down, but keeping it very, very fluid, semi-translucent and liquid for an extended period. It can lead to paint cracking when it eventually dries. It might be of interest for doing large-scale water effects on terrain, but I suspect will make the paint far harder to control for brush work than is useful at our scale and again, weak coverage.

 

Another thing I was wondering about while we are on the subject of being a cheapskate, what is the difference between relatively expensive airbrush thinner and regular old synthetic thinner from the hardware store?

 

Very different solvent. Synthentic thinner is intended for oil based paints, and oil and water don't play well together. If you've ever put mineral spirit in acrylic paint, you'll know why it won't work.

 

However - it is entirely possibly to make your own airbrush thinner cheaper. Luke Aps has a good recipe which is less than a 1/3 the price of vallejo thinner per ml.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDmKm3IK0pI

 

That said - it's a lot cheaper IF you want to make several litres of it. If you're buying the precursor stuff just to make thinner, you'll probably spend quite a bit on those bottles initially. A 200ml bottle of thinner lasts me years, so isn't really worth the cupboard space for making my own! If you can group together with friends (or run a club or something) so there's a reason to make litres of it, it makes a significant saving.

 

Airbrush thinner (I use liquitex airbrush medium) does make an excellent substitute for lahmian medium though. That stuff is a rediculous price.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Arkhanist

[ranulf the revenant]

I'm using super cheap acrylic paints for bases and the results are OK. Regular paints would probably be easier for good results, but you can make it work. The mixing ratio is just something one has to experiment a bit with. I already did a thread on a similiar topic.
-> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359603-using-normalartist-acrylic-paints/?hl=%2Busing+%2Bartist+%2Bacrylic+%2Bpaints&do=findComment&comment=5418752

Edited February 18, 2020 by ranulf the revenant

[Fajita Fan]

Terrain?  Yes.  Models?  No.

 

I've tried cheap craft paints and their body is usually lousy and pigment strength can be worse.  These 3d printed pieces for AT18 were painted with cheap craft grays and they work fine with some Liquitex medium and water.  I even did black washes with black ink, medium, and water because I can't find my Liquitex flow aid anywhere.

 

 

The red on the roofs is old Mephiston Red that's semi dried and almost reconstituted with medium, the yellow on the tanks is Averland sunset, but the blue on the generators and the gray on the Hoth shield generators is all cheap craft paint.  The metals on the generators is cheap stuff too, it's wasn't too bad but the body of paint is very "gluey" as if it's like paste.  It has to be thinned to go on even remotely smooth but the pigment strength is waaaaaay less than something like Leadbelcher which covered noticeably better.

 

Pouring medium is different stuff, I'm not sure of its exact chemical constitution but I've used it for doing acrylic paint pouring like this:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06mC_b9R_e0

 

It's much thicker than I thought it would be, it still needs water and some cheap craft paints start breaking down in it.  They get almost...clumpy?...and don't dry smooth.  Some of the canvases I've done have noticeable texture in them using cheap craft paint and I let them cure with gravity after tilting most of it off the edge.  

 

So for cheap terrain you don't mind absolutely give craft paint a whirl but do expect far less pigmentation when you start adding medium to improve their crappy body.  You'll need more layers but even then you'll save money over using GW paint for terrain.  You can make your own black wash with ink, matte medium (needed to take the gloss out), and some flow aid or the right amount of water.  I mixed this in small plastic shot glasses and it worked okay...for terrain.

 

Whatever you do - do not let this stuff come within a mile of you expensive GW miniatures!!!

[lordsloth]

I did some experimenting on sprues and indeed, its nearly impossible to get coverage with the pigments in that particular brand of cheapo paints (im sure there are ones that would do better or worse).

 

I can see them maybe being usefull for weathering or something like that, but not much more.

 

Still haven't experimented with the weird bottle of medium.

[tychobi]

Cheap supplies are great! But not paint. Cheap paint is no bargain. It just has less pigment, usually you are better off with thinning expensive paint. Craft paints can work nicely on terrain with muted colors but i fear you will be disappointed at your outcomes on models.

[Imren]

When it comes to painting terrain with cheap craft acrylic paints comparing to miniature paints I have discovered the following:

• Airbrushing craft paints works fine with a large-ish (0.7 mm works fine with me) needle airbrush. They did clog my small needle airbrush (0.2 mm) even when the paint was mixed outside the airbrush cup and poured through a fine sieve into the airbrush cup to remove dried paint flakes in the paint.
• For base coating the terrain their lower pigment density and coarseness does not matter, since it is a opaque base coat you cannot see any difference compared to using miniature-specific paints.
• When airbrushing highlights then you can see a very slight difference in coarseness/graininess when looking through a magnifying glass, but from a feet distance no visible difference looking with normal eyesight.

[Astral Arcane]

*snip*

 

Curious your thoughts about acrylic airbrush thinner versus regular water? I've been using water for years and can't seem to see much difference other than maybe dry time / nozzle clogs? 

[Arkhanist]

 

*snip*

 

Curious your thoughts about acrylic airbrush thinner versus regular water? I've been using water for years and can't seem to see much difference other than maybe dry time / nozzle clogs? 

 

Short answer - whatever works for you is fine!

 

Long answer - it depends. Tap water is obviously cheap, and you can thin paint for an airbrush pretty well with water alone. Too much though, and you can stretch the binder so far the paint doesn't adhere properly,

 

In my case, I live in a super-hard water area which is mostly limestone & chalk (literally I can get little chunks of limescale or a film from water straight off the cold main) so I'd need to use distilled water, which immediately whacks the price up.

 

I do use my own flow aid, made from a bottle of artist flow aid concentrate that I dilute 90% distilled water to 10% flow aid. Flow aid quickly reduces the paint viscosity so it flows better through the brush (it's basically a surfactant, like washing-up liquid), clogs less and it also slows drytime a little so reducing tip dry without significant thinning, though of course the water dilutes the paint too. Too much risks paint runs and drying slowly, but that can be offset by lowering the pressure. For airbrush-ready paint, this will usually be the only thing I use, and not in vast quantities.

 

The downside is being as it's mostly water is it thins coverage as well, as you're spreading the same amount of pigment into more liquid, so you can end with having to do significantly more coats if you overdo it.

 

For thicker paint such as standard brush paint, I prefer to use airbrush thinner to do the bulk of the thinning. This is usually mostly water, with some alcohol and glycerine. Alcohol is a better solvent than water, so it holds more pigment in solution, allowing thinning with less volume of fluid than water alone; thus your pigment (and coverage) is less diluted as well. Alcohol does also dry quicker (risking tip dry), while the glycerine slows the paint drying to offset it. Given how thick brush paint usually is, I basically get it to near the right consistency with thinner, then finish off with a little flow aid to decrease viscosity and reduce clogs/tip dry further.

 

If I'm thinning something super-thick, e.g. artist tube paint, then I will also start by thinning it with a matt-medium based thinner, like liquitex airbrush medium. This adds acrylic binder too so you can thin it substantially without affecting adhesion. But I'm not doing that often.

 

The same thing is also what makes it a good medium for thinning brush paint, and it's nicely liquid so you can stretch a paint all the way down to a glaze while keeping the pigment nicely in suspension which is mostly what I use it for. Most GW brush paints get a squirt of medium and a few drops of flow aid as soon as I open them, so i have to thin it less on the palette cos GW paint can be seriously gloopy. It's also great at reviving older pots that have started to thicken up and/or go chalky due the crappy lids (rakarth flesh, I'm a looking at you).

 

Paint is ultimately applied chemistry, and there's a lot of different options to do different things to it. But then, water is already the primary solvent for acrylics and you can do a lot with water alone and a bit more skill to offset the downsides. I make up for lack of skill with chemistry

 

Flow aid is significantly useful for airbrushing IMO, I found it reduced tip dry and clogs with very little added, particularly with lighter colours and though I could live without it, I'm too lazy to! If I had usable tap water, i'd probably use that instead of pre-made thinner more often as for mild to moderate thinning there's not *that* much difference.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Firedrake Cordova]

In my case, I live in a super-hard water area which is mostly limestone & chalk (literally I can get little chunks of limescale or a film from water straight off the cold main) so I'd need to use distilled water, which immediately whacks the price up.

Dumb question, but have you considered using a water filtration device, aka Brita jug (other brands are available), as I'm sure that'd work out cheaper?  I'm pretty sure my water comes from a chalk aquifer (South Downs), so qualifies as very hard water (> 200ppm).  I notice a rather obvious difference when using filtered water instead of tap water, namely that [a] I don't get a limescale band in my (glass) water pot, and my cleaned brushes don't go rock-hard when they dry (yes, I checked I cleaned them properly ... to check, I even took a clean, supple-bristled, brush and rinsed it in tap water - it dried hard)

Edited February 25, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[Arkhanist]

 

In my case, I live in a super-hard water area which is mostly limestone & chalk (literally I can get little chunks of limescale or a film from water straight off the cold main) so I'd need to use distilled water, which immediately whacks the price up.

Dumb question, but have you considered using a water filtration device, aka Brita jug (other brands are available), as I'm sure that'd work out cheaper?  I'm pretty sure my water comes from a chalk aquifer (South Downs), so qualifies as very hard water (> 200ppm).  I notice a rather obvious difference when using filtered water instead of tap water, namely that [a] I don't get a limescale band in my (glass) water pot, and my cleaned brushes don't go rock-hard when they dry (yes, I checked I cleaned them properly ... to check, I even took a clean, supple-bristled, brush and rinsed it in tap water - it dried hard)

 

We did have a brita-like for a while, but it was a pain in the arse to keep filling and we burned through the cartridges regularly - and those cost an absolute fortune. We just buy a big jug of deionised water (about £2 for 5l iirc) sometimes for things like the iron and windscreen washer top up in the car, but just live with nuking the kettle and showerhead and taps with descaler every so often. The dishwasher salt is pretty effective at keeping the scale down in there. My wife and have both spent most our lives in hard water areas so we don't even notice the taste some complain about.

 

I have a smaller bottle of distilled water that I use when I need really pure water. Cheap deionised water intended for cars/irons etc can still have trace organic contaminents (the lab grade stuff is more expensive and tends to only come in BIG quantities, though not as expensive as distilled) so I don't like to mix flow aid with it for example, and you probably shouldn't drink it. (Obviously home-made deionised water made from tap-sourced water is fine). I could use the deionised in the airbrush, but I picked up a 200ml bottle of vallejo thinner for like £8 when I started and thought it mandatory and still have almost half left years later so eh.

 

I use tap water and single-use plastic cups from work for my water pot in my paint stand; I usually get months and months out of one before the paint build up and limescale becomes too much to rinse out, which I can live with compared to their usual one use and bin. I thin my brush paint with medium and/or flow aid, cos a] it works better, and b] my water pot is usually pretty brown!

 

You know, I never twigged the hard paintbrushes thing - my entire life I've just been used to the idea that my brushes need a rinse before use to soften them back up, I don't even think about it. Huh. Guess I found another use for the deionised water!

 

My next house I'm planning on fitting a proper deioniser to the cold water main.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Firedrake Cordova]

We did have a brita-like for a while, but it was a pain in the arse to keep filling and we burned through the cartridges regularly - and those cost an absolute fortune. 

Ah ... I was meaning to have a filter jug just for the paint water.   I only really use it to fill the coffee machine, and for painting water (the important things ) so the filters last ages. For everything else, I just use the mains water - hard water is actually supposed to be good for the cardio-vascular system, apparently.

 

I usually get months and months out of one before the paint build up and limescale becomes too much to rinse out

If I leave water in my water glass overnight, it will have a distinct limescale ring where the surface of the water meets the glass (if I leave it until it evaporates away, it'll basically put a solid coating down the sides of the glass)  The kettle lasts about a month before needing a descale ...

 

You know, I never twigged the hard paintbrushes thing - my entire life I've just been used to the idea that my brushes need a rinse before use to soften them back up, I don't even think about it. Huh. 

Same here. I just noticed it by complete fluke!

Edited February 26, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[Fajita Fan]

The hot water at my office comes out yellowish (like urine) with black bits in it  I'm lucky to have decent water at home for drinking let alone painting.

 

So on the subject of paint water do any of you follow the old wive's tail of adding a drop of soap to cut the surface tension? I used to do this but never noticed a difference (I'm also not a good painter though so maybe I can't notice it).  What is noticeable if you decide to use cheap paint is adding matte medium and a few drops of flow aid to it, this can really help the body so it flows better instead of just cutting it with water.

 

I just used some cheap craft paint last night and it didn't flow out of brush so much as get deposited onto the surface and moved around.   

Edited February 26, 2020 by Fajita Fan

[Firedrake Cordova]

The hot water at my office comes out yellowish (like urine) with black bits in it  I'm lucky to have decent water at home for drinking let alone painting.

Yikes!! 

 

So on the subject of paint water do any of you follow the old wive's tail of adding a drop of soap to cut the surface tension? 

I've never tried it, but it is something I've heard of, and it should do the same thing as flow improver, which I have noticed a difference when using it with Formula P3 and Vallejo paints.  If you shake a bottle of flow improver, it does become very frothy ... (W&N/Liquitex flow improver works out cheap, because it's concentrate, so a 250ml bottle makes 2.5l, so I decided what-the-hey - I think I actually used it to get free postage on an order ...)

 

What is noticeable if you decide to use cheap paint is adding matte medium and a few drops of flow aid to it, this can really help the body so it flows better instead of just cutting it with water.

To be honest, I've noticed a difference adding medium to Vallejo and P3 paints when compared to water, e.g. if you paint the rim of a base with Vallejo Game Color Extra Opaque Charcoal diluted 2:1 water:paint, it alters the consistency of the paint, causing it to "sag" off of the top of the rim, forming a series of elongated "u" shapes, yet if you do the same using acrylic medium, it stays where you put it.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[Arkhanist]

The hot water at my office comes out yellowish (like urine) with black bits in it  I'm lucky to have decent water at home for drinking let alone painting.

 

So on the subject of paint water do any of you follow the old wive's tail of adding a drop of soap to cut the surface tension? I used to do this but never noticed a difference (I'm also not a good painter though so maybe I can't notice it).  What is noticeable if you decide to use cheap paint is adding matte medium and a few drops of flow aid to it, this can really help the body so it flows better instead of just cutting it with water.

 

I just used some cheap craft paint last night and it didn't flow out of brush so much as get deposited onto the surface and moved around.   

 

There is some truth to it; flow aid is basically a surfactant, which is what soap and detergents both are. They all reduce the surface tension of water, though that's a side effect for soap and the intended effect for flow aid, so the actual chemical mix are a little different.

 

However, you tend to want a more powerful effect than a single drop of liquid detergent (washing up liquid) in your water glass will provide, and we don't want the added colours they use. As it sounds like you've already discovered, you can buy it ready to use, e.g. vallejo airbrush flow improver, or buy concentrated (such as the winsor and newton or liquitex flow aid) that's intended to be diluted with distilled water first to around 5 to 10% depending upon how strong an effect you need and it really can improve the flow of awkward or clumpy paints.

 

I think my current bottle of flow aid concentrate is about a decade old, so it goes a VERY long way.

 

Medium is usually the binder that holds the paint together, so adding some of a fluid one will make the paint less viscous without affecting how well it sticks/dries, unlike water. (Gel medium does the reverse, i.e. making it thicker which is not normally needed for model paints!)

Edited February 27, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Grotsmasha]

Brent from Goobertown Hobbies just dropped a video on this topic, HERE

[Closet Skeleton]

That kind of paint would be good enough to do terrain with. I don't see any grey though, its not 40k terrain without that grey IMO. 

 

You should always be mixing greys anyway.