Looking for some guidance on Primaris Blood Angels

[Infernalstone]

Long story short, old player from 3.5e, 4e, and 7e.  Dabbled in AoS.  Touched 8e at release and took a break, so I'm familiar with how the rules operate in general.

 

So I'm hoping to get some insight, as I want to build a Lamenters army, so BA without their characters.  I also want to do more or less full Primaris.  I've seen a few things out there, such as Neonmole's 3 troops, 3 Repulsor's and the characters.  And it's not terribly far off from what I was wanting to do.  Probably swap in the Lamenter FW character, drop a Repulsor for a Invictus suit and Redemptor dread for rule of cool.  Not sure yet, but that's in the realm.

 

But what I'm trying to figure out, after being away, is how that works out, roughly.  I know the primaris stuff really lacks for CC, so my guess is that with intercessor points reductions, the across the board rules (Bolter Discipline, Combat Doctrines, etc) puts them as okay to decent on their own, and then BA rules put them where they aren't going to really win a fight with dedicated CC units, they can more or less aim to outshoot CC infantrys or go for CC against shooting infantry.  And I guess the other part is to have some big stuff (Repulsors) to draw some fire to give the infantry room to work, and enough overlap to do some work on their own.

 

Basically just seems like it's rolling with base primaris rules to do the work, and BA stuff to just be some icing.  I know it's not ITC competitive but seems to carry okay otherwise.  Does that sound like it's on the right track?

[Bonzi]

You've got the gist. Intercessors with a Thunder Hammer sarg can put fear into almost any opponent. Especially in turn 3 when you can drop into assault doctrine.

 

Other units to keep in mind for CC are Aggressors which are packing power fists and a lot of dakka. Reivers can be great at tearing down elite and horde units. When you're throwing out a ton of attacks at -1 in the assault doctrine they can tear down units like terminators or shielded vanguard vets. You have to remember their bolt pistols which become -2 and the shock grenade which shuts off overwatch and gives the enemy unit -1 to hit in CC.

 

The biggest hurdle is solving the mobility problem that Primaris have vs most key BA CC units.

[Infernalstone]

I'd considered Aggressors too, because unless I'm mistaken, Malakim Phoros aura re-rolls all wounds, which I'd think would be high comedy with the either gauntlets, but probably the bolter ones to get multiple rounds out of them.  Other stuff I've read is it makes cheaper, lower damage power weapons a viable option to save points, at least for dudes near him.  I don't have his rules yet, so that's just based on 1d4chan info about him.  So I could be wrong.

 

But I didn't want to dive too deeply into nitty gritty stuff before I had an idea of how exactly the primaris puzzle worked out.

[Mordas]

If it helps, I played against Dark Angels last week, completely forgot his intercessors (vets) had a power fist. He stuck them in cover and when I charged T2 to clear them I then remembered the fist.

 

Yes, it hurt... (a lot)

 

But the extra stats made them very tough to shift.

[The Unseen]

I would look at Sanguinary Guard, as they basically already have the Primaris statline. But a core of intercessors around the Standard of Sacrifice is a very solid infantry base, and can be very aggressive if you run auto-bolters with a melee weapon sarge. Turn 1 advance into cover, turn 2 use tactical doctrine to unleash some dakka, turn 3 get stuck in.

Though since you've already come out as a masochist (Anyone who wants to paint yellow AND freehand a checkered shoulderpad should probably be evaluated by a licensed psychiatrist;) ) I would still recommend using the Blood Angel rules over Lamenters, since Phoros isn't worth losing access to the good relics (Since a successor chapter can take only 1 BA relic, and it costs them extra CP, for basically no reason)

Or if its gonna be a casual setting, ask if you can use Malakim as if he was a blood angel, and just don't run any other named characters, aka how it was for multiple editions of 40k.

BA succesors that aren't flesh tearers got super shafted, and even the FT didn't come out great.

[Panzer]

You might not want to take the named character for Lamenters since then you wouldn't be able to use your army as "counts-as Blood Angels" and RAW currently BA successors can take only a single relic/SIW unfortunately. 

Though you could always use the model and use it as regular Captain or such.

[Infernalstone]

This shows some of my ignorance. I thought you could only take one relic anyways. I might toy with both BA count as and Lamenters character. I know it's a loss if relic, but his aura, if 1d4chan has it right, is really, really good. Infantry, dreads and bikes refilling all failed wounds. I mean, napkin math makes what is normally a 6+ wound become a 30% chance to wound. Not amazing, but puts mass bolter fire at a point of making people rethink things, I'd think.

 

Yellow isn't as bad with an airbrush and some patience. Prime white, and a few coats of yellow. In 7e, I did Bad Moons. For shoulder pads, I'm not settled but going to look at some 3d printed options that engrave the checkers and the icon. I have a friend with a pretty high dollar resin printer so if I get a good model, for a bottle of decent sipping whiskey he'll print all the shoulder pads I could want.

[Panzer]

Normally you can take one for free and then 1-2 more via Stratagem. However due to how things are worded that Stratagem is only available to the parent chapter (classic GW).

What makes things worse is that vanilla chapters (the ones from Codex: Space Marines) not just don't have this stupid restriction in the first place, they even have a new version of that Stratagem that allows them to take more than 2 additional relics/SIW too. 

[Infernalstone]

Does it seem likely that BA will get that restriction removed in the next codex? I may be mistaken, but I thought dark angels had received a new codex since the updated vanilla codex, but I could be wrong.

[Panzer]

Yeah but who knows when we'll get that Codex. 

Dark Angels and Space Wolves are in the same boat as us.

[DistractionTacMarine]

One thing I will say is that Neonmole’s list is really cool and apparently very competitive, but with the makeup of his army it would be a stronger list with most other chapters, including home brew.

[Infernalstone]

Out of curiousity, any thoughts on Incursors?  I know they're a bit more expensive than Intercessors, but they seem like they'd work well with the ignoring cover and the combat knives.  I don't think going all one or the other, but mixing the two.  Intercessors for some more mid/back field holding, incurssors for upfield objectives or just taking it straight to the enemy.

 

And I agree, that Neonmole's list definitely looks like it'd do better with other chapters (from what I've gleamed on other chapter tactics), but I'm looking at, at best, friendly tournament level.  We have some folks here that play in tournaments, but from what I understand, it's not ITC cheese level.  Just more people optimize their list a bit more, and bring their mental A game and play a little more ruthlessly.  I mean, this is a place a block from a local brewery and they sell cans from behind the counter so that gives you an idea of the level going on.  Across town there's an ITC heavy group, if I really wanna get my teeth kicked in.  Which seeing how rough it can be can be fun from time to time, and I think good for getting better to see just how nasty the game can be and how weak some areas of your army may be.

[Panzer]

Keep in mind that Neonmole's list was from a time before Combat Doctrines, new Stratagems, PA stuff etc. and even back then it struggled against some opponents (I still remember that list getting deleted against IF Centurion spam).

[Karhedron]

Out of curiousity, any thoughts on Incursors?  I know they're a bit more expensive than Intercessors, but they seem like they'd work well with the ignoring cover and the combat knives.  I don't think going all one or the other, but mixing the two.  Intercessors for some more mid/back field holding, incurssors for upfield objectives or just taking it straight to the enemy.

I haven't tried them myself yet but they look very good on paper. The extra 2ppm gives some useful abilities and Ignoring cover as well as negative to-Hit modifiers mitigates the loss of the AP from the bolt rifles. I think you are right that a mix of Intercessors, Incursors and possibly Infiltrators would give a good balance of capabilities.

[Hintzy]

If the Incursor sergeant could take a melee weapon I think Incursors would be the clear standout.

[Karhedron]

If the Incursor sergeant could take a melee weapon I think Incursors would be the clear standout.

Very true which is probably why they don't have the option. If one unit is a no-brainer then why even bother with the others? This way we have to make some choices.

 

Incursors look good at applying early pressure either with shooting or tying up units in melee while the Intercessors move up to do their job.

[Infernalstone]

I think I might mix some in. I'm a pretty big fan of having different units that are pretty close in the same job and cost, just for variety.

 

Thanks got for giving me food for thought on Primaris and BA, folks.

[VanDutch]

I’ve started building a core group of Phobos units for mid board control in the early game;

 

2x 5 man Incursors

1x Invictor

1x 3 man Eliminators with bolt snipers

1x Phobos Captain or Phobos Librarian

 

I know it’s not very fluffy for Blood Angels, and it has had mixed results, but it applies a bit of pressure on the opponent early on that’s different from the mass of Death Company I moved pre game.

[Majkhel]

My limited experience with Phobos units confirm that they are good at distracting opponents and help increase our T1 pressure.

 

Incursors are tougher scouts. Not quite as shooty or choppy (for the same points) as dedicated scouts units, but tougher and able to do a bit of both shooting and CC.

 

Eliminators - if possible take 2 units. They can be tanky as hell but if you want some more output out of them, bring more.

 

Invictors are solid, you just need to be able to hide it T1.

 

Phobos Captain is a great unit to carry Quake Bolts.

[VanDutch]

My limited experience with Phobos units confirm that they are good at distracting opponents and help increase our T1 pressure.

 

Incursors are tougher scouts. Not quite as shooty or choppy (for the same points) as dedicated scouts units, but tougher and able to do a bit of both shooting and CC.

 

Eliminators - if possible take 2 units. They can be tanky as hell but if you want some more output out of them, bring more.

 

Invictors are solid, you just need to be able to hide it T1.

 

Phobos Captain is a great unit to carry Quake Bolts.

Exactly my thinking. I may chuck in another eliminator squad and another Invictor for 2000 point games.

 

The other benefit of Incursors is their ignore ballistic penalties and cover. My main plan is to keep them shooting for two turns and then charge in turn three as long as they haven’t been shot off the board. It’s why I’m thinking of switching to two 7 man groups, just to keep them going a bit longer. Recently played against my friend (Grey Knights) who couldn’t believe how many attacks they had in them three. I has a squad of three that wiped his three remaining terminators on the charge.

[Drunken Angel]

Have had success with Incursors, they are hard to shift when in cover and can counter charge well in third turnl.  I will dump shooty scouts on the objectives I know will be overrun early game and try to keep the incursors nearby in fire support to charge/contest.  I usually have a jump pack Captain hanging around with Icon of the Angel to support them.  I want to try an Intercessor Sergeant with a thunder hammer in backfield.  The idea of a 10 wound troops model that shoots 4 to 12 bolter shots a turn and carries a big hammer lurking in backfield appeals.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Drunken Angel

[Infernalstone]

I like the discussion going on here.  That solidifies my desire to add in some phobos stuff.  I know it's not very Blood Angels, but I think it'll fit with Lamenters.  I'd imagine they're always rolling around going "We don't have the bodies to be gloryhounds." so I'd think they're much more likely to use such tactics to accomplish their goals.

[Black_Cat_41]

-Intercessors form a great back line/ midfield ObSec. 

-Suppressors and Inceptors are both good.

-You should still probably take a Smash Captain, but if you want you can convert his model to look like a Primaris (like NeonMole did.)
-Repulsors/ Executioners can strong in the back line, but really expensive, and we don't have as many ways to properly support them in the same way some Codex Chapters do.
-Eliminators are very powerful if you park them in cover and start sniping with them.