Stormtrooper trait, scions drop force and greater good

[TraceTheKriken]

This problem was mentioned in http://www.bolterand...-2#entry5478245, but I think it would be worth it to discuss in a separate topic to keep the other one more generic.

 

So the problem is this: the drop force can be used only by a regiment that has the stormtrooper docrine.

 

In the guard rulebook none of the scions have <Regiment>, but in the page discussing regimental doctrine states: "if every unit in a detachment is militarum tempesus they gain the stormtrooper doctrine".

 

In the greater good it's said that all militarum tempestus GAIN <Tempestus Regiment> which you then MUST replace with one of the new scions group name and all such units GAIN a regimental doctrine buonus (none of them give stormtroppers, that is the first "regiment" in the page after this).

It's never said that "instead of stormtrooper you can select one of the following".

IMO the stormtrooper trait is built in by default in every new scion regiment, and thanks to that you can use the vigilus drop force and have exploding 6+ in addition to the new regiment rules.

What do you think about that?

We need an FAQ for sure, but I would like to hear your opinions.

 

Special thanks to "off_da_grid", a reddit that helped me with this topic.

[Trickstick]

I really don't think that it is intended. If it was, they would have used clearer language to show it. For example, the wording would be things like "in addition to". Plus you have thins like the Thetiod Eagles doctrine. I don't think that a roll of 6 is supposed to generate both an additional shot and hit, as that is confusing and clunky.

I think that this is prime FAQ fodder, and also expect most groups to houserule it away in the mean time.

Actually, after re-reading the wording, I think I have worked out my RAW stance against this. The "Regeimental Doctrine" section of GG states that <Tempestus Regiment> units gain a doctrine opposite. That includes Storm Troopers. So you are only given permission to gain a single doctrine. It is pretty easy to argue against that though, I can think of the counter-arguments in seconds (MT keyword already grants ST doctine seperately).
 

I just wouldn't play it that way, as I think that Storm Troopers being included in the list is a clear indication that you are just supposed to select one. I actually think I would refuse to play against someone using both, depending on their attitude of course. It just seems like a purposeful misinterpretation to gain power.

 

I will hold my hands up if I am wrong and this was intended though, as who knows until we get an FAQ. However, I think that it is unlikely.

[sairence]

I actually think I would refuse to play against someone using both, depending on their attitude of course. It just seems like a purposeful misinterpretation to gain power.

 

There isn't much to add to this, really. While some stuff is ambiguously written in GW rules, this is one of those cases were there isn't really any way that this is RAI.

 

In the Greater Good book you even have the Codex-doctrine given as one of the ones you can pick, it's at the top of the page and referring back to the Codex, followed by all the new ones.

 

As for the Vigilus stuff...I think those books were something of an experiment to expand the rules that didn't quite work the way GW wanted, which is why we haven't seen that format again since.

 

A lot of the stuff introduced has since been rolled into standard rules, SM are the prime example that now have some Vigilus strats as standard-codex ones. I think a similar thing happened here...both the drop without penalty and +1 to hit after disembarking have been included in some form in the new rules. I wager the detachments are just in a weird in between place, where GW can't really say "don't use these anymore" because they are fairly recent.

Edited February 18, 2020 by sairence

[Trickstick]

I probably should mention that I would also allow any regiment to use the Vigilus detachment. That seems like another obvious RAI thing. It's just a symptom of the FAQ patch to the fact that "Militarum Tempestus detachment" isn't a defined term and didn't really work before the FAQ.

[mertbl]

I believe the vigilus FAQ is to stop you from having a cadian detachment with a scion squad and making it a tempestus drop force.

[TraceTheKriken]

Trickstick

I just wouldn't play it that way, as I think that Storm Troopers being included in the list is a clear indication that you are just supposed to select one

 yeah I think you are right, but they should write their books better. Every time a new expansion like this come out there are a lot of errors and incogruences.

Hope they'll FAQ this as soon as possible.

In the meantime I'll use vigilus with the new docrines but no exploding 6+

[Bluflash]

Follow up question, can anyone see a gray area for giving Valkyries a Scion trait, or is it a clear cut no? (No book in front of me, or I'd do this myself.)

[mertbl]

They are locked into aeronautic imperialis.

 

Follow up question, can anyone see a gray area for giving Valkyries a Scion trait, or is it a clear cut no? (No book in front of me, or I'd do this myself.)

[Shamansky]

Follow up question, can anyone see a gray area for giving Valkyries a Scion trait, or is it a clear cut no? (No book in front of me, or I'd do this myself.)

The only regiment that gives trait to Aeronautica Imperialis is Elisian Drop Troops. Confused me several times as was using aircrafts within Elysian detachments only and completely forgot about their non-rgimental nature.

[CaptainMarsh]

This is a pretty clear case. They include the Storm Trooper Doctrine in the Greater Good as one of the options- they just say to reference the codex. It is one of seven options. It is not a baseline+others and it is very clear that is the intent. The other interpretation requires a ton of mental gymnastics. Vigilus Defiant could use an FAQ to clarify that <Tempestus Regiment> is the keyword needed now and that is about it.

[jaxom]

I had this in the other thread because I didn't see this one until now.

 

 

Okay - here's my theory on how the order of operations works (until we get a new FAQ which fixes this stupidity - seriously, who needed that FAQ when the AM codex is pretty clear on the matter):

 

0) Warhammer Rulebook p. 240 - Army units are mustered and they all have the ASTRA MILITARUM faction; Astra Militarum WLT, strats, and relics are unlocked for further list building.

1) Astra Militarum p. 132 -  Every unit in a detachment is Militarum Tempestus (or Auxiliary) --> every unit (except Auxiliary) in the detachment gains the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine.

2) Vigilus Defiant FAQ - The detachment has the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine; it is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment.

3) Vigilus Defiant p. 168-169 -  Spend CP to make the MT Detachment a Tempestus Drop Force (unlocking Field Commander strat, Grav-Chute Commando WLT, and Cypra Mundi Null-Emitter relic for further list building).

4) The Greater Good p. 64 - Each Militarum Tempestus unit gains the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which is then replaced by one of the six named regiments.

5) The Greater Good p. 64 - If all the MT units in the MT detachment (key point: it is pre-defined in TGG as being an MT detachment; it must already have Storm Troopers) have the same named regiment then all the units gain a Regimental Doctrine selected on p. 65. The selected Doctrine can replace Storm Troopers, but you've already unlocked Tempestus Drop Force.

6) Spend any additional CP on pre-game strats, assign WLT and relic(s).

Edited February 19, 2020 by jaxom

[duz_]

Sounds like a good question for the FAQ

 

40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

:tu:

[TraceTheKriken]

 

duz_

Sounds like a good question for the FAQ

 

40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

Already did it

Edited February 19, 2020 by TraceTheKriken

[duz_]

More the merrier I imagine

[Trickstick]

I'm guessing that they have some way of gauging the "frequent" part of FAQs, so more will probably help. I can think of 3 main ones right now:

 

- The bolt gun

- The getting a second doctrine thing

- Tempestus drop force