To Magnus, or not to Magnus.

[Prot]

So I'm going to give this a few more kicks at the can, but I gotta be honest, I have a lot of stuff I've been working on, including my Admech which I have a feeling might be getting a good bump soon in PA (If anyone is curios on my current 2020 considerations, they are here: http://prot40k.blog/2020/02/18/my-40k-prospects-for-the-2020-season/

 

I have a few ideas I want to run past you guys, and this is for my  next game, so I don't want to muddy the great 'competitive' thread we have going, since this is obviously really specific to what I'm trying to get working.

 

This isn't a simple list review request. This will be a competitive game most likely (I don't know my opponent's army). The true crux of the matter here is 1: Is Magnus worth it with the mild boosts I've noted since PA4? It's worth noting every turn he lives means that although he absorbs/demands all the buffs, the rest of the army is largely untouched while he breathes. 2: Is the extra Cult choice, and basically what amounts to dreadnought shooty options worth pulling Magnus? or 3: Should I pull the Knights out?

 

List Premise 1: The King is Back.

 

- Magnus

 

- Battalion 1:

- Cult of Magic

DP w/Wings

Ahriman

2 x 10 Cultists

1 x 20 Tzaangors

 

-Battalion 2:

- Cult???? Back to Duplicity or?? Time???

Exalted Sorc on Disk

Sorc in Termie armour (Familiar)

5 Rubrics

5 Rubrics

10 Rubrics

7 Scarab Occult (1 missile)

1 x 3 Spawn (I know I have a weird thing for my 'failed sorc' squad).

 

So in this one the Termie squad shrunk a bit. So I'm not sure what to do with the Cult of X? Any thoughts ? Also I use Ahriman to slingshot Magnus with Warptime, but otherwise there is little overall threat here and very lethargic shooting!!!

 

 

 

List 2: The King is Dead. Long Live the 3rd Cult

 

- Battalion 1:

- Cult of Duplicity

Ahriman on Disk

Sorc on Disk

 

7 Rubrics

10 Rubrics

19 Tzaangors

 

-Battalion 2:

- Cult of Magic

DP w/Wings

Sorc on Disk

 

10 Cultists x3

 

-Spearhead:

- Cult of Time

Termie Sorc, Familiar

 

Helforged Contemptor 2 Twin Lascannons

Helbrute Multimelta

10 x Scarab Occult. 2 Hellfyre missile racks, Soureaper (this squad rings it at 371 points!!!)

 

The above list heals Termies, and since there's no Magus the first cast is by the Termie Scarab Sorc in case I get off a 9+ and can bring back even more guys. (This has happened. I've brought back 4 in one turn in a game.)

Shooting is 'better', the termies are a big sand pit, but don't have high end killing power.However I have used Yoked Automata with this squad and it's been good. 

 

I don't know if the Cults are best, but I have been tabled pretty badly by elite shooty armies like Necrons with tons of destroyers, and warriors.

 

 

 

List 3: Dust and Damage:

 

- Battalion1:

- Cult of Magic

- DP with Wings

- Ahriman on Disk

 

- 20 Tzaangor

- 10 Rubrics 1 soulreaper

- 5 Rubrics

 

-5 Scarab Occult (Missile + Soulreaper)

 

- 3 Chaos Spawn

 

Super Heavy Detachment:

 

- Tyrant Chaos Knight (600pts!)

   - 2 x Twin Melta. Conflaguration Cannon (Great for flyers), Thundercoil Harpoon, and 2 Twin Siegebreakers.

   - He takes the extra relic: Heirloom: Veil of Mendredgard for the 4+ inv.

   - Iconoclast

 

- Knight Wardogs with Autocannons x 2.

 

This list is my pre PA list which basically just adds cult of magic. Kind of boring because it doesn't add much new. The Tyrant can last if the 5+ gods are with me.

 

I have another variant using a new Desecrator I just painted which saves me a good amount of points. I haven't figured it out yet, but it does allow re rolls of 1's for Wardogs within 6".

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Any thoughts?

 

I know this is crazy late, because my game is in about... 4 hours! but this is what I have to choose from. 

 

 

[Archaeinox]

Im still thinking (its noon and class starts soon) BUT my first initial thought is 7 scarab occult are not less durable than 10 so i still think they are a valid unit.

 

My 2nd quick thought is that a Risen Rubricae brick is another "boost" to Magnus from RotD. If i didnt have a brick to provide immediate threat, i wouldnt event take Magnus now. They pair well together but in the meta of your area, as youve spoken about it, i would say hes still a liability.

 

Of the 3, and knowing your knowledge of the game, id say your best change going into this unknown would be list #3.

 

Im not sure list 2 would get much from Duplicity.

[Prot]

What I often get out of Duplicity is yanking something out of a tri-point situation. It happens a lot against good tournament players. It usually can be game changing when this happens, but yea, I agree the duplicity category overall isn't a make or break in this list.

 

I am leaning towards Knights as well. It seems a little ... boring from the perspective of not having a lot of shiny new cults to try, but it will hit hard. My Desecrator version of that list hits even harder, and might get a spin.

[Prot]

Well with little feedback, I have elected to try List 2.

 

Why? Basically because it lets me use the core rules from PA4. I ALMOST pulled out a ton of mini-Wardog / Knights and a basic Battalion but it would have been less... exciting.

 

I ended up playing a competitive Genestealer cult army.

 

I did a full write up of the game here: https://prot40k.blog/2020/02/19/thousand-sons-competitive-battle-report-psychic-awakening-of-the-cults/

 

Some key moments were huge. I will say it was a close game:

 

And for anyone that doesn't want to read the battle report: SPOILER AHEAD:

Thousand Sons won the game by a single point, in the final turn. It came down to a suicidal run from my (largely failing) Daemon Prince with his Cult of Magic powers to destroy the patriarch (and wound half my remaining models)!

[Archaeinox]

Thanks for the write up I'll head over to your blog today and read it before class.

[Heliomanes]

Thanks for the battle report, it was a very interesting read. You also write well, which makes reading a joy. Good call on stopping the Perils from the anti-psyker sniper with our new stratagem, I hadn't thought of that at all.

Any thoughts on what kind of changes you would make to your list? Are you happy with your dreadnoughts?

[Archaeinox]

Yeah again, I really like the style of your blog. Seeing your page makes me want to do my own, at least from a narrative gaming perspective.

 

You know, I think I'm sold on at least 2 contemptors with full lascannons. Guess I'm gonna order them and swap out the 3 predators. It is time. I already run Scarabs, so that's a Vanguard right there. Magic, likely. I don't know. 

 

Sometimes "I don't know" is a good thing because fact of the matter is we DO have overwhelming options to try..

 

Not sure about the Decimator. I want the soulburner things but not sold on the look. Darn

Edited February 20, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

Thanks for the battle report, it was a very interesting read. You also write well, which makes reading a joy. Good call on stopping the Perils from the anti-psyker sniper with our new stratagem, I hadn't thought of that at all.

 

Any thoughts on what kind of changes you would make to your list? Are you happy with your dreadnoughts?

 

Thank you very much. 

 

I had grown rusty against GSC.  I basically forgot how nasty their anti psyker abilities are. I was rolling low-ish for tests and they have a ton of denials via an aura. Plus that relic gun is horrible. I remember the first time I payed against it, I literally lost a 5 man Rubric squad from one shot. 

 

the stratagem is a must against GSC and Daemons IMHO. 

 

i look at the list and the game and I wonder how much I did wrong vs how much I should change. For example in hindsight in this matchup I think it would have been much wiser to make a large denial footprint out of the Tzaangors, then Crystaled them away as needed later in the game. They just got walloped in this game. 

 

My obvious changes would be the Crystal for a Helm of the Third Eye. Wow I neede CP in this game ( again without Magnus) perils doubled between no Magnus and the sniper rifle. The Crystal is great, but with our new strats and traits, and relics... I go through CP twice as fast. 

 

that being said your own experience made me wonder if I should  really bother with Duplicity. But taking that helbrute out of cover, and teleporting 9” away from my opponent’s somewhat fragile gun line was worth the price of admission. I just didn’t bother with the anything else but the power from duplicity this time. 

 

quickly on Dreadnoughts.... I wasn’t sure what to take. The Helbrute was always going to be on a suicide mission. The Contempor is rock solid for the points with dual twin las. My opponent was thinking that might have been the best performer.  Dual Butchers on the Decimator is just a cheap Primaris killer. 

 

Yeah again, I really like the style of your blog. Seeing your page makes me want to do my own, at least from a narrative gaming perspective.

 

You know, I think I'm sold on at least 2 contemptors with full lascannons. Guess I'm gonna order them and swap out the 3 predators. It is time. I already run Scarabs, so that's a Vanguard right there. Magic, likely. I don't know. 

 

Sometimes "I don't know" is a good thing because fact of the matter is we DO have overwhelming options to try..

 

Not sure about the Decimator. I want the soulburner things but not sold on the look. Darn

So in my list I have the butchers on the decimator which I prefer ever since GW cranked the points on the soul burners. Mine is glued together so I’d have to buy another one if I want it to look accurate. 

 

The choices are tough and unfortunately too many of them are very situational. And the way GW wrote this stuff, it makes it tough to truly sample it all. 

 

id love to try the Destiny Dice style power of the terrain/ movement penalty ones for example. 

 

what I do like is Cult of Time. This might just be me but I’ve always had a tremendous affection for those dust refrigerators (scarab Occult). Not to mention the newer art...it’s an iconic unit. The fact I can play them with a bit better turn on investment with a simple WC 5 psychic power is just gravy for me. 

 

magic is going to be right up there with chicken broth when it comes to soup staples. But I do think the rest is fairly functional. Like you say, it’s good to have some tough decisions. 

 

im glad you liked the report/blog. It’s a huge time sink though. I’ve considered letting lapse this summer.  

[CrystalSeer]

To me, it seems like duplicity is best for adding utility to baseline units with shorter ranges. The faster the unit, the less its really needed. This is my go-to battalion for my rubrics because it keeps them in the fight. Basically do area denial for the first few turns then move up once the board starts to open up and there are fewer things to counter them.

 

That said, the WL trait is only useful half the time, and the relic is redundant with HotTE which does not require a cult warlord, so those items seem better elsewhere.

 

Time is weird, its a great Cult, but the army has very few good targets for it. Its basically worth it on terminators, and not much else. On this one I'm coming around to just spending 1cp to make them a support detachment. 1cp to bring guys back all game is a fair trade.

 

The one I'm most likely to receive heat for is Magic, I don't really think its worth it. To max it out, you need WL, plus spell, plus relic all on a cult character. The cult doesn't help out basic troops so you're likely adding another detachment as well; and in exchange for all of this, you receive +1 to MW spells. Its cool, but the opportunity cost is astronomical for what you're getting. Follow that up with the 15" range on the main spell and your 'mini-magnus' isn't likely to survive doing it more than a handful of times.

 

 

--------Break--------

 

Bringing all of this back to Prot's original question:  no, I don't think Magnus is the answer in a competitive environment. At this point, he does not benefit from 2/3 of the advantages of the faction, and he's an expensive, easy'ish to kill target. The army is already hurting for points to bring enough units/detachments without starting with a 400 point model that doesn't contribute to CP.

[Heliomanes]

Oh, now this is turning really interesting. Having different viewpoints means we have different points to reflect on and things to try out, so don't read this as an attack or anything. Genuinely happy to see different points of view.

I don't think las contemptors are all that good, because they get very little for being thousand sons compared to a detachment of other Chaos marine factions. I could see a case being made for more close ranged variants due to the relatively unique way we can teleport them, but not much beyond that, after the Cult of Prescience relic got nerfed. Would be happy if you sold me on it though.

I don't think the Cult of Magic opportunity cost is a big problem either. It is big, I agree on that. Thing is, this is kind of like the problem with Magnus. We can only really buff one big unit at a time, meaning either Magnus or the Rubric blob or something else. So you will have to add lots of components to your army that is not too heavily reliant on those big defensive buffs and does other stuff, like the Cult of Magic detachment. There are plenty of other options, of course, but I think this is one of the stronger ones available to us. Hope this made sense, not sure if I managed to put my point into words in a good way. I'll try to think of a way to rephrase it.

[CrystalSeer]

Oh, now this is turning really interesting. Having different viewpoints means we have different points to reflect on and things to try out, so don't read this as an attack or anything. Genuinely happy to see different points of view.

 

I don't think las contemptors are all that good, because they get very little for being thousand sons compared to a detachment of other Chaos marine factions. I could see a case being made for more close ranged variants due to the relatively unique way we can teleport them, but not much beyond that, after the Cult of Prescience relic got nerfed. Would be happy if you sold me on it though.

 

I don't think the Cult of Magic opportunity cost is a big problem either. It is big, I agree on that. Thing is, this is kind of like the problem with Magnus. We can only really buff one big unit at a time, meaning either Magnus or the Rubric blob or something else. So you will have to add lots of components to your army that is not too heavily reliant on those big defensive buffs and does other stuff, like the Cult of Magic detachment. There are plenty of other options, of course, but I think this is one of the stronger ones available to us. Hope this made sense, not sure if I managed to put my point into words in a good way. I'll try to think of a way to rephrase it.

 

If you're looking to do las, Iron Warriors do it far better. They have 3 strategems that allow you to re-roll wounds and damage, plus ignore cover. If that's what you're going for, its time to soup. The best we can do in codex is teleporting forward or using a relic to give a single re-roll per unit.

 

On your second point, Cult of Magic works best as a Supreme Command. However, that means that you give up the WL Trait and free relic for any other detachment. Plus, those characters can't be used to make battalions. Or you have to cut points out of Rubricae to go with cultists, which vastly reduces the capabilities of your line troops.

 

Basically, Magic is Ok for pure Thousand Sons, but does not stand up to Soup options. It also does not contribute enough to change the core capabilities of the list. Duplicity and Time do.

[Archaeinox]

Regarding the Cult of Magic Supreme Cmd in this discussion, could you guys go over what sort of spell set you have?

 

I have yet to grasp the concept fully so my assumption is:

 

Ahriman: Warptime, Prescience, Glamour

Dude: (Warlord: Devastating Sorcery, Arcane Focus) Infernal Gaze, Infernal Gateway, Astral Blast

Dude #2: (Magister: High Magister) Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, Astral Blast

 

If you dont take Magister, what does the 3rd wheel do?

[Skerr]

3rd dude could be a terminator sorcerer w familiar.

 

Or a winged demon prince and use high Magister on another cult detatchment where your willing to give up the relic like Time or Duplicity.

 

The SCD Cult of Magic doesn't need all the good toys, unless you really want them to.

[Heliomanes]

Or take a batallion. 2 HQs and 3 troops, to get your tzaangor and cultists sorted out, while you leave your rubricae for another detachment. It does not have to be an either/or kind of thing.

[Archaeinox]

since we cant control where Astral Blast goes, I could see the benefit of having an entire battalion be Magic.. It's an opportunity spell, after all, and with the rubrics it'd have large board coverage if the Devastating Sorcerer guy isnt in range for the spell because of other factors.. and easy to cast. Hm.

[Prot]

I really think anyone should play at least 3 games (semi competitive at minimum) before saying they like or dislike Magic. That might sound controversial but I say this because not only has it happened on this forum but I've had a good number of opponents dismiss it, and then do a total 180 on their opinion post game.

 

Here's the thing: It's swingy (surprise!) Our 'best' phase is swingy, but even Magnus can be swingy. When "Magic" works well you will feel like you're using mini (untargetable) Magnus. Using "Cabal" in conjunction of Gaze of Fate at the right time does result in some really powerful moments.

 

If I take Magic out at this point, I honestly feel the damage level drop in my games. Honestly it's that notable (most of the time).. yet these 'utility' cults often have games where I don't notice I have it. I can't say I've ever felt that with Magic. It's basic, but fundamentally going to do something for you everygame. I still love Duplicity, but my last game was a great example of 'flinging' a Helbrute, and then never using it.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++

 

The Las-temptor is 168 points.  I do have games where I end up pulling him out. It's just overall people generally fixate on the front lines of Thousand Sons, and focus fire the front lines to get to the characters. A lot of armies do despise seeing 4 lascannons shots, hitting on 2's staring at them from the board edge. This game the Lastemptor has good targets, and his value went up accordingly. He sucked up firepower, and was the only realistic threat to 3 Ridgerunners, and a Leman Russ.

 

I do pull him out once in a while, but it does leave a hole that the Butcher Decimator doesn't really fill, and otherwise in the army.... well there's just zero superheavy threats.

 

+++++++++++++++

 

Cult of Magic is just something I'm going to use. I agree it's not amazing. But for fun, I even like the undying Warlord, the Perfidious Tome is fun, but most of all it's just my 40K fixation with Termies feels marginally legitimized now! lol

 

+++++++++++++++

 

I think Magnus is probably the most contentious issue I have. He's still 'good', and enhances the army significantly, but all the downsides you guys mention is absolutely true. The BUT I was going to add is he must be killed in T1 if you can do it. You just have to kill him because I can double heal him now, and if that happens he will make the opponent pay. 

 

At the end of the day I agree, Magnus will probably never see very successful competitive play.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Prot

[Archaeinox]

I ran a Tzeentch Battalion with a 3++ LoC, a Duplicity Battalion with Scarabs and a Magic Supreme (first time running supreme of magic). 

 

The 3rd HQ was flying Prescience and Glamour on Midfield stuff with +1 to cast. It was the difference between him passing or failing those powers, at least 4 times. 

 

The Exalted on disc with Devastating Sorcery and Arcane Focus melted Intercessors wrapped around Mephiston who charged the Scarabs. I flung them up turn 1 with the spell. I didn't take Dark Matter Crystal because I wanted Helm of the Third Eye as my 2nd relic.. I used a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar to cast the spell on the terminators turn 1, and had Gaze of Fate as backup. 

 

Oh and Mephiston fighting a 2nd time and only doing 1 terminator and 1 wound to one is pretty hilarious when they had a 3++. Damn he gets so many attacks.. This new set of stratagems saved me this game from total defeat (ITC) and he won 24-22. Magic for the win. Guess I'm doing that from now on.

 

The teleport was cute. If you play ITC i would damn near say Duplicity is huge for that. It got me lots of points. 5 turns, 4 teleports. Sure, there's games where I fail the power.. It sucks but I've played TS since 2004 and I am no stranger to bad psychic attempts lol.

 

For me, the lord of change was huge. he was a beast and tanked so many shots. It wont always happen, but it sure did this game. He was able to move, get tied up, survive, move again, and apply Smite/Infernal Gateway where I needed it. I'll be using him often. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Archaeinox

[CrystalSeer]

I ran a Tzeentch Battalion with a 3++ LoC, a Duplicity Battalion with Scarabs and a Magic Supreme (first time running supreme of magic). 

 

The 3rd HQ was flying Prescience and Glamour on Midfield stuff with +1 to cast. It was the difference between him passing or failing those powers, at least 4 times. 

 

The Exalted on disc with Devastating Sorcery and Arcane Focus melted Intercessors wrapped around Mephiston who charged the Scarabs. I flung them up turn 1 with the spell. I didn't take Dark Matter Crystal because I wanted Helm of the Third Eye as my 2nd relic.. I used a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar to cast the spell on the terminators turn 1, and had Gaze of Fate as backup. 

 

Oh and Mephiston fighting a 2nd time and only doing 1 terminator and 1 wound to one is pretty hilarious when they had a 3++. Damn he gets so many attacks.. This new set of stratagems saved me this game from total defeat (ITC) and he won 24-22. Magic for the win. Guess I'm doing that from now on.

 

The teleport was cute. If you play ITC i would damn near say Duplicity is huge for that. It got me lots of points. 5 turns, 4 teleports. Sure, there's games where I fail the power.. It sucks but I've played TS since 2004 and I am no stranger to bad psychic attempts lol.

 

For me, the lord of change was huge. he was a beast and tanked so many shots. It wont always happen, but it sure did this game. He was able to move, get tied up, survive, move again, and apply Smite/Infernal Gateway where I needed it. I'll be using him often. 

 

I really love the concept here, and have played similar lists. My only concern is how do you deal with dedicated armor? I'm not seeing much that can efficiently deal with t8. Double-triple repulsor, guard parking lots, leviathans?

[Archaeinox]

I'm considering swapping the predators out for contemptors with lascannons if I can afford them and no I have not yet fought triple repulsor executioners or a parking lot. I've had no trouble with single leviathan lists but I also havent faced IH. I'm sure I will see both these problems in an ITC event setting and I don't think the cults will help my predators with that at the moment lol. 

[Prot]

I like this Arch. Great stuff but what is the LoC giving you that Magnus wouldn't? (I am genuinely curious because I haven't been into the Tzeentch Daemon stuff at all in 8th).

 

I still have trouble putting magic on an Exalted. I usually save my Exalted on Disk for Duplicity because he doesn't have to be quite as aggressive since Astral Blast is... 15"? One failed Warp Time, and the DP is hanging out in no man's land sometimes and having the extra CC and tank abilities helps.

 

Blood Angels are no joke. A good Blood Angel player can present a 'gate keeper' type of list easily in this current meta. I do envy you passing Facade 4 out of 5 turns though. Literally failing that power at the wrong time has lost me a game.

 

If our Termies had any HINT of close combat competence they would be auto include. Great job with them though. I just keep using them, and can't pull them out.

[Archaeinox]

250pts vs. 445pts and one of them starts the game with a 3++ for 1 CP, that's the selling point, assuming I only wanted one of them for spells and not melee (the LoC wounds vehicles on 5+, but strong infantry like intercessors and plague marines on 3+). 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

250pts vs. 445pts and one of them starts the game with a 3++ for 1 CP, that's the selling point, assuming I only wanted one of them for spells and not melee (the LoC wounds vehicles on 5+, but strong infantry like intercessors and plague marines on 3+). 

 

Is that CP for the whole game? 

 

Do you include any other daemons? I think it's too dangerous right now considering how crazy GK got overnight. 

[Zodd1888]

I think that's paying 1 CP for the Robe on the LoC. Going to have to agree, LoC is just more economical if you're looking for a Tzeentch LoW.

[Archaeinox]

Been there, Gk's doing flat 2 mortal wounds is absolutely terrifying, the fact that they could happen to get 4 off doesnt make it any scarier so I'm not worried about a GK matchup

 

tbh I have the model for AoS and I like having something for 2 games. As such, I'm more inclined to include him in 40k to take advantage of that. Your mileage may very! I highly recommend him, anyways. 

Guys. Someone is giving me wings for my Mindstealer Sphiranx. Island of Blood griffon wings. Daemon Prince will be built this week. My first one! lol. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

250 is better than Magnus but is it better than a DP which can be easily made +1 to casts and hide behind infantry?