To Magnus, or not to Magnus.

[Archaeinox]

Here's something the LoC can do that a Prince doesnt: Goof up a skilled ITC player's target priority and get him flustered. Sure, he can target the LoC. Should he? Hm. It's fun to watch the indecision and it satisfying to watch the LoC eat everything that goes into it on a 3++ with Gaze, Cmd re-roll and that last resort re-roll from the 3++ relic itself. 

 

In the last two turns of the game, the LoC was literally dug into his lines on his home objectives and taking ZERO fire. He won't always make those saves, but it was enough of them to direct fire in his deployment zone all the way out to midfield instead of at Cosmic Cluck because they were wasted. Plasma, whirlwinds, snipers.. all went to other things except big bird.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Archaeinox

[SirVulkan]

I just played a game where Magnus was murdered on turn 1 but I still ended up winning.  You just have to make sure you have enough other parts of your army to still win the game.  Honestly they need to move Magnus back to 415 points or maybe 405.  

[Prot]

I'll have to look more into this. I really have no idea what or how to get into Tzeentch but I have a feeling it might be necessary in the end to truly be competitive.

 

At the risk of this being unpopular, I want to think that Magnus and this LoC. Keep the rest super cheap, maybe just use Magic for the Thousand Sons, and keep the body count decent with maybe one Rubic Blob?

[SirVulkan]

I also think SoT's with cult of time are an auto include at this point.  Fusilade, prescience and votlw with them is pretty nasty.  They can sit in the middle of the table and just murder stuff all game.  My unit of 10 killed 3 necron flyers, a tesseract ark and a doomsday ark in the course of the game.  They actually give us a good shooting phase.  Just dont take a soulreaper or the stupid flamer

[Prot]

I also think SoT's with cult of time are an auto include at this point.  Fusilade, prescience and votlw with them is pretty nasty.  They can sit in the middle of the table and just murder stuff all game.  My unit of 10 killed 3 necron flyers, a tesseract ark and a doomsday ark in the course of the game.  They actually give us a good shooting phase.  Just dont take a soulreaper or the stupid flamer

 

I don't trust my own opinion on this. (just being honest!) I'm insanely biased towards terminators, especially Scarabs. I do have a Soulreaper modeled and painted on one model. (This is actually my second Thousand Sons army as I sold the last one fully painted, and I find this one slow... very slow).

 

Not too long ago I picked up another 5 man squad in the Kill Team box set.

 

So I was going to start going back to my Chaos Knights/Thousand Sons lists, but this brings me back to thinking perhaps ... maybe I'm not just getting lucky with Magnus and Terminators.

 

So as a result, for  my game tomorrow, I will be using:

 

Cult of Time:

DP

Ahriman

cultists

Cultists

18 Tzaangors

 

10 Scarab Occult

 

Cult of Duplicity

Exalted

Exalted on Disk

5 Rubrics

5 Rubrics

9 Rubrics

 

Magnus

 

Whenever I take Magnus out, I definitely go into Magic, and also add 2-3 dreadnoughts of various flavours: Decimator (butchers), and/or Contemptor (twin las), Helbrute (MM), or Helbrute (Missile/Las). I also like the idea of Maulerfiends (But haven't used them in ages).

 

I have no idea what I will be playing against tomorrow.

[Prot]

Ah we've gone back to being very, very quite.

So I didn't get any feedback on the list or using Magnus or not, so I decided to play last night's game with my Eldar instead. However tonight I will pull out the Thousand Sons. I guess I'll go forward with Magnus and see what happens.

[Heliomanes]

Looking forward to reading your report, Prot!

[Prot]

So a very quick batrep.

It was a strange game of Maelstrom. The game was actually much tighter than it looked on the table top. I ended up playing against Necrons, and I had to go second. This was scary since he had 3 of the DOOMSday Arks... and I'm playing Magnus. Lol.

Plus he's going first.

He has a large squad of Destroyers. I like that he had two flyers. I thought it was a good, unique move on his part, this allows him to sort of 'teleport' out of either of the flyers (without it hovering, and he can pick which flyer this happens from.)

He had 2 squads of 10 warriors and a squad of Immortals with Tesla, and a Command barge, even a C'tan.... the Deceiver. So he gets first turn, and sees where I put Magnus. And guess what? He uses the Deceiver to redeploy a bunch of stuff to kill Magnus

So on with the game.... He goes first, and I have 'hidden' Magnus from one of the 3 Doomsday Arks. Oh well. That's not bad considering his wing span. I kept using my hands to show about how wide he should be and I was trying to be generous about it because I don't have the wings on him as he's not painted yet.

I of course don't have buffs on Magnus so the big question is.... Does he ignore Magnus or go all in?

Well he goes hard on Magnus, and I've played against Crons before and they really do go through a lot of elite infantry armies like mine pretty easily. I was bracing for the worst. He starts with the Doomsday Arks, and I make a normal amount of 4++ saves. However he rolls 6 shots from his second Doomsday Ark and that's it, I'm sure I've lost him, but I only fail 2 saves, and CP re roll one of them into a save. I was shocked to see after all his shooting, I would lose 1 of my 10 Scarab Occult, and 8 Wounds off of Magnus!

The good news aside from Magnus being alive is my army otherwise was largely untouched. Pure luck? Perhaps.

I don't have a lot of time today, so I can't do my normal blog post with a bunch of pics and granular game coverage but here's how it went after the Necron first turn:

- Magnus survives, gets buffed, partially healed.

- Terminators revive lost member, Fusilade, double fire. After all said and done in psychic phase as well.... I kill Squad of Warrriors, 1 flyer, 1 Doomsday Ark. Thousand Sons take the lead 5-1.-

- Necron response is equally brutal, but 2 Doomsdays fail to entirely kill Magnus. The right side of the table is more or less owned by Thousand Sons, and one Doomsday Ark tucked deep on his end. Necrons do teleport in a squad of Destroyers via the Flyer, and try to kill my infiltrated 9 man Rubric squad that is holding back his front line (for this game we used ITC rules for ground floors blocking Line Of Sight (LOS). So he had to come in the back way of the ruin to try to kill the Rubrics. I use +1 Invuln strat and somehow survive with 3 Rubrics of the 9. I do lose one 5 man squad, and most of another, and a squad of Cultists are deleted. Necrons Score 4 points. 5-5.

- Thousand Sons turn 2. I screw up order a bit here but my opponent is gracious about us correcting the order so every thing ends up legit. Magnus could not be buffed very well because I had to use support powers on my low level troops to do "Sorcerous Facade" and jump on a distant point. And I throw EVERYTHING psychic wise to kill a flyer, so that the rest of the powers can kill off the 6 Destroyers that just assaulted my large Rubric squad in ruins. Psychic phase goes off on the Destroyers killing all but one wound on one Destroyer. The Rubric squad uses baby smite to kill the last Destroyer to my opponent's chagrin. This freed up the 3 remaining Rubrics to charge through the wall (no overwatch because of ITC) and tie up 10 Warriors. But the C'tan is right there, no worries this is what I need them to do.

- His Turn 3 he tries to kill some termies but I end up reviving the 2 he kills. I Warp Time them to get into a better position. His turn is spent largely killing remnant Rubrics, and then half my remaining Cultsts. I'm down to characters, and 2 Rubrics I have teleported in his zone (Hiding for line breaker) Magnus has 6 wounds left at the end of this turn. Necrons end up withing a point of Thousand Sons at this point 12-11

This is a picture from bottom of Turn 4.

At this point I am leading with characters... I have just finished moving, and decide it's time to leap up Magnus so he does get all the buffs this turn to prepare.

- Termies do the shoot twice, VotLW and wack a ton of warriors, and dent the last Doomsday ark.

- Magnus gets Warptimed closer, and kills his Command Barge Warlord... after passing off a shedload of mortal wounds to his Lychguard Bodyguard. The dual assault results also in the death of the final Doomsday Ark.

- The Command Barge Warlord comes back from the dead (a 1 CP Strat!) and hides.

- The final turn sees the C'tan try to kill Magnus who is now on 3 wounds after being shot up. However the C'tan bounces, Magnus kills him too... somehow. And then the Necrons are forced to concede. The win is close pointswise, but he's down to a few models.

It was a really weird game... so swingy. So Magnus like.

[Skerr]

Excellent summary Prot. Sounded fun.

[Prot]

You know I play a game like this and I think... yea I can win with Thousand Sons... and even Magnus. But all of my wins feel like I stole them. I can't describe the feeling but take Magnus in this game. The opponent has beaten my Thousand Sons as his ongoing list construction is excellent for it. However he got first turn, and went almost all in on Magnus. After the game I told him I think if he brought his Destroyers out T1, Magnus is gone.

 

As usual the power of Magnus reroll aura is key. It's the real power here. (I think people launch him into hell far too early). 

 

Every game is like this though.. it's basically I have nothing left but some characters, and it's a lot of mutual devastation and me feeling like I stole a win. lol

[WarriorFish]

You say stealing wins; I say Tzeentchian master strategy - just as planned :lol:;)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, maybe your secret goal is to have all the Thousand Sons sorceror's eliminated, one sniper bullet at a time. That would explain why they spend so much time hanging out by windows, even when they've just been shot through them. :P

[Prot]

You say stealing wins; I say Tzeentchian master strategy - just as planned

 

Yea I like to pretend too. lol 

Sure, that's the plan allllll along. 

 

The truth is that in all of these games... I can't explain it but they feel like stolen wins. I don't have a lascannon, or shot over 24" in the army. 

 

The funny thing is the version that I pull Magnus, and put in my three Dreads... it really doesn't do better. In today's marine meta, losing 3 dreads is as likely as losing Magnus in T1. 

 

I think Tau will shred me. Especially the new Yvarra build I'm seeing in the wild, and now they have 2-3 horrendous builds that really won't care about -1 to hit. So I'm thinking we have to be building our lists with that in mind every game.

 

 

 

Yeah, maybe your secret goal is to have all the Thousand Sons sorceror's eliminated, one sniper bullet at a time. That would explain why they spend so much time hanging out by windows, even when they've just been shot through them.

 

 

Mine apparently love window shopping especially on their disks! 

 

I have to get better at that for sure. However as we are entering an ITC event shortly, there will be blocked off floor level ruins.

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

On the topic of Magnus, and building competitively, one thing that I keep contemplating is dropping the goats entirely, but I'm wondering if I'm using them incorrectly with Magnus. When I use the Goats, it's almost 100% of the time to throw at a tank or array of tanks, and tie them up for 1-2 turns. Usually my Goats do not kill anything. Magnus keeps the buffs, and the goats die. (You have to wonder why the goats show up anymore? Sure he taught them to walk upright and hold axes, but I don't think the trade off is worth it!)

 

But the goats, even at my min squad size of 18 with brayhorn sits at.... 154. Rubrics are questionably better in some match ups, however there is a psyker, and they can sit on objectives, and would benefit from Sorcerous Facade where the Goats must use deep strike or the Crystal. I can get about 9 Rubrics for that price!

 

That said I'm terrified of Grey Knights with this list... with disk Sorcs and the DP and Magnus. Prime targets. The 18 Tzaangors are acceptable losses if they start out front, protecting from smite. The problem is the Paladin Bombs get to fire all their weapons in the Psychic phase, often blowing away your screen, THEN smiting your characters away.

 

There's almost no room to budge in the list. It worked twice as is, and again they felt like steals. With the list as it stands now I can't seem to figure out a way to make it better with Magnus without removing a serious number of bodies, or going Magnus and Chaos Knights with a small Battalion of Thousand sons. (I've had that list ready to go for a while, but have not used it).

 

So for now I guess I can't tweak it. The Scarab Occult have been so much fun, but they do consume a whooping 364 points!

[Skerr]

My goats have pulled off a couple of feats such as 30 surrounding and taking out a dreadnaught through volume of attacks with Cycle of Slaughter (I lost some goats too) though usually tying up heavies as you mentioned or for grabbing objectives.

 

Though since RotD I haven't made an single list with goats. I just get more Rubrics and use spawn as screens.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Skerr

[Prot]

Do you play with Magnus in those lists? Because it’s a bit of a body count, and foot print issue for me... like pushing back GSC for example. How do those sort of match ups work for you?

 

I am also dreading the Grey Knight match up with a low body count. 
 

how are you finding Spawn? I always took 4 previous to PA4. 

[Skerr]

No I don't have Mag so my post is not that applicable to the op, sorry, was just commenting on how I lost all interest in goats since PA4. Though I plan to get him one day.

 

I look at the cost effectiveness of goats and rubrics and just decide on rubrics.

 

For spawn they are mainly screens, tie-er uppers. Sometimes I can rush them into the enemy line, use the strat, tear stuff up, their expendable.

[MillionsSons]

You know I play a game like this and I think... yea I can win with Thousand Sons... and even Magnus. But all of my wins feel like I stole them. I can't describe the feeling but take Magnus in this game. The opponent has beaten my Thousand Sons as his ongoing list construction is excellent for it. However he got first turn, and went almost all in on Magnus. After the game I told him I think if he brought his Destroyers out T1, Magnus is gone.

 

As usual the power of Magnus reroll aura is key. It's the real power here. (I think people launch him into hell far too early). 

 

Every game is like this though.. it's basically I have nothing left but some characters, and it's a lot of mutual devastation and me feeling like I stole a win. lol

 

Can't agree more, the reroll 1 aura is so key for TS to work well.

Then throw Magnus in Close only on turn 3 or 4 to finish off the big ones. I like to play him so much but I know only do so against opponents who can't kill him turn 1 and if we go for a competitive game

[Prot]

That's how I use him, but I don't really have the luxury of picking him for a match up. I've been basically using him every game for the past month. My last loss was actually without using him. I'm really torn on using him. Common sense says he's a liability in those bad match ups, but such a fun unit.

[Skerr]

Well shoot Prot, sounds like he's working!

[Prot]

I wish it was that easy. I’ll tell you what.... my first loss with him, I moan how bad he is! Lol

 

seriously though, how this all started is I stopped using him months ago and said okay, I’ll use him, lose horribly, and put the idea to bed. 

[Zodd1888]

Magnus isn't bad, he's just not good. Just like most of the core TS, we're a solid 7.5 IMO. That's the feel to me, not super great but generally able to hold it down.

 

In a game with so many factions it's a good spot to be, you just can't except to win big.

 

That said, moving away from tournament style play, I personally think we're still left a little light. Cults are good but I'd like to see 1kS get a all out focus on Psychic. Exalteds and Ahriman get the Magnus RR, Magnus gets a +1 to Psychic aura. Easy and interesting.

[Skerr]

Amd there can be so many variables just within the game itself then throw in what army are you fighting, who is playing them and how many times have you fought them with Magnus... etc. If those are pretty consistent some win loss trends will show and evolve from there as your group develops their Magnus killing lists.

 

Our lists evolve too as we come up with counters to our foes new lists that start countering back.

 

So ride the wave Prot and when your group starts to neutralize him consistently you'll know to cut Magnus. Then after a few months you might see opportunities to bring him back.

[Prot]

Well I think my luck just ran out...

 

 

I had a really weird match up, but it pointed to my lack of shooting as serious indicator of a bad match up waiting to happen.

 

Here's the weird thing I thought  this was a 'good' match up. lol 

 

It was against Tyranids... that's right, Tyranids. Kraken style with that killer HQ. He had first turn, hit my Tzaangors on my back grow in T1. Basically he moved 2 x, advanced twice (once for 5, then for 6"), then got off a reroll just in case on the assault. He ended up approximately 2" away from my back board edge. Frontline assault AKA Pointy Dawn of War. 

 

That's fine, he never even got first blood, and I did hang in there points wise but I ended up conceding. He had total board control and shockingly I had 3 (!!!) turns of Fusilade firing down on his Gants and stronger monster types 6 times! I still couldn't clear out the big stuff.

 

Because of board control, I couldn't position Magnus in a strong enough spot until very late game. So that meant his cheap stuff was absorbing 90% of the mortal wounds. 

 

I shut off his Geneastealers invuln, and he still surivived some 60 Stormbolter shots... with VotLW. (He had -1 to hit on them, and he canceled my Prescience). Granted even he admitted his 5++ FnP on the Genestealers was nothing short of stupidly good. However he still absorbed piles of bolter shots and once again my Tzaangors bounced.

 

This might have been one of the most disappointing games I've had since the new codex. And I say this not because I lost, but because I couldn't see any real areas of miss-play on my part. 

 

Magnus did very well, but when it came to the Nids podding in this giant creature with a flamer that melts Scarab Occult I forced my reluctant DP to charge him and I got within a wound of dying, and he wouldn't die either.... real problem here. The T6-T7 stuff just lived waaaay too long and I had no threat for those Hive Guard which are also very killy.

 

I used Magnus to take on the Swarm lord. I took his Invuln away too... there's NO WAY I could let this thing charge my HQ's and my Troops were almost all dead... hanging on by a thread I put all my mortal wound abilities into the darn thing and it still had 4 wounds left. That meant on the charge I had to get 2 wounds through.

 

Well Magus charges, slices the thing to death then 2 things happened that I had no idea could/would happen. 1. The Swarmlord gets up from the dead, and puts about 9 wounds on magnus leaving him wtih 4 or so. Then 2. he dies with 'death throws' and puts 3 mortals on Magnus leaving him with 1 which was easily shot off. 

 

So I had one lowly 5 man Rubric squad trying to get me linebreaker (we were playing ITC mission 1) and I had a slight point edge but I literally lost everything else except for Ahriman and a few cultists.... I had to concede just for my own sanity.

 

Really disappointing. As usual I have no idea what I'm playing against, but I saw the match up and thought great, no tanks. This should be tilted in my favour. But the shooty carnifexes, and Hive Guard, and Deep striking big unit (can't remember their names) included a big fat thing with flamers that were nasty, and larger, coiled up bug. He had all of that and remnants of other stuff I just couldn't interact with anymore.

 

That was a shocking, but utter beating I took, and I didn't feel I could have changed that result at all. A bit of an eye opener really.

[SirVulkan]

Ya nids are not the best match up and that player did everything right. I'd take it as a learning experience. Its winnable though.

[Prot]

Winnable? I’m not sure. I think if everything went my way... maybe. With this particular list I’m not sure. I think right after my turn 2 ( bottom of the turn) I realized my Smites were not going to get to intended targets, and I did nit have the volume to get through the small stuff and the array of heavy units like carnifexs etc just weren’t going to be properly threatened..

 

this really seems to keep reinforcing my suspicion that I might be better off with Choas Knights backed by a Magic or Time Battalion. 
Or I finally need to consider that I have to drop Magnus for my quad lascannon Contemptor and or my Butcher Decimator... however I keep relying on Magnus for all those failed psychic tests.