How Evil are the Thousand Sons?

[Xisor]

I found the Word Bearers evil compelling - they're zealots. Ideological purity, as well as adopting the facade of zealotry as a license to be a baddie - is very human. Or at least, its something done by a lot of humans.

 

I found it very interesting.

 

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For the Thousand Sons, I find the drive to pursue their objective to be their main villainy.

 

They're obsessive, and quite often self-righteous in their entitlement to pursue their obsession.

 

They end up being quite good at the self-justifications too. (A wonderful aspect of the Ahriman stories post Heresy.)

 

And because their ideals are often obscurely lofty (undoing the rubric) or undeniably selfish (I want magical power and I'm willing to do anything to get more of it), I think it becomes quite alluring.

 

Mainly because they start out with justifications like "I need X to solve Y" as Y is the goal.

 

But it isn't. X is the goal and Y is the means.

 

Whether it's cynical design, or lack of self-awareness, its just as self-destructive as any Khorne-championed bloodlust. And it draws in untold billions as collateral damage.

 

It just sits behind the defence that "knowledge is good".

 

In 40k, ignorance is good.

 

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I especially enjoyed the take on the Thousand Sons in "Atlas Infernal" - it presents them as a menacing force for horror - almost moustache twirling in their seemingly petty, driven obsession.

 

I didn't quite prefer that version of Ahriman, but given the context of the entire book, I think it works wonderfully.

 

Especially when you compare Ahriman to his rivals - Czevak, the Harlequins, the Great Devourer, the Ynnari, himself, Orikan the Diviner, the Alpha Legion, etc.

 

They're all much of a muchness, from a certain point of view.

[MegaVolt87]

Someone at FW must like Aladdin from disney, because Ahriman's 30k art looks like space Jafar, so by extension pretty evil clearly. 

[Archaeinox]

I actually like the way Ahriman was portrayed in Atlas Infernal and I believe that it can coexist with the personality developed by John French in the Ahriman Omnibus. 

 

I think the sophistication was there, but more importantly the calm intelligence and unstoppable willpower.

 

Again, John French said specifically in an interview that Ahriman is evil. So I guess we go with that lol

Edited February 29, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Moonreaper666]

I actually like the way Ahriman was portrayed in Atlas Infernal and I believe that it can coexist with the personality developed by John French in the Ahriman Omnibus.

 

I think the sophistication was there, but more importantly the calm intelligence and unstoppable willpower.

 

Again, John French said specifically in an interview that Ahriman is evil. So I guess we go with that lol

Ahriman is evil but wants to make a difference while he is still alive, until he becomes dust and fades away from history (really liked his and Abaddon's potrayal in Solar War). He tells a woman that betrayed him that he wants her to live and serve him because they aren't that different in the quest of redemption

 

Unlike the others of the Chosen Six (Abaddon, Huron, Typhus, Khârn, Lucius and him) he isn't guranteed a free revive or huge supoort from the Dark Gods. He has to put more effort and risk

 

Both Magnus and Ahriman's character arcs are tied to the questions/philosophy of fate and free will. Magnus impressed Tzeentch so much that he let both the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves live instead of dying on Prospero. Ahriman is trying to make as many meaning choices with the noose tighthening on his neck

 

I am an Atheist, yet I will worship/follow the Dark Gods if I was in either Warhammer Universe. Whether it was free worship, out of despair or too weak to resist tempation/mind-control/persuasion is a question for the ages. 'Evil' doesn't exist in Warhammer because 'Good' also do not exist

[byrd9999]

 

I actually like the way Ahriman was portrayed in Atlas Infernal and I believe that it can coexist with the personality developed by John French in the Ahriman Omnibus.

 

I think the sophistication was there, but more importantly the calm intelligence and unstoppable willpower.

 

Again, John French said specifically in an interview that Ahriman is evil. So I guess we go with that lol

Ahriman is evil but wants to make a difference while he is still alive, until he becomes dust and fades away from history (really liked his and Abaddon's potrayal in Solar War). He tells a woman that betrayed him that he wants her to live and serve him because they aren't that different in the quest of redemption

 

Unlike the others of the Chosen Six (Abaddon, Huron, Typhus, Khârn, Lucius and him) he isn't guranteed a free revive or huge supoort from the Dark Gods. He has to put more effort and risk

 

Both Magnus and Ahriman's character arcs are tied to the questions/philosophy of fate and free will. Magnus impressed Tzeentch so much that he let both the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves live instead of dying on Prospero. Ahriman is trying to make as many meaning choices with the noose tighthening on his neck

 

I am an Atheist, yet I will worship/follow the Dark Gods if I was in either Warhammer Universe. Whether it was free worship, out of despair or too weak to resist tempation/mind-control/persuasion is a question for the ages. 'Evil' doesn't exist in Warhammer because 'Good' also do not exist

 

 

I disagree with your last statement. I would say that Good and Evil definitely do exist in Warhammer. There are countless examples of kindness and caring, as well as incidents of torture and total disregard for life. Whether the Imperium is Good or Evil is another matter, but this is all probably semantics in a made up universe of plastic toys and dice.

[Zodd1888]

I think the intention of that statement was that the Pantheon cares not for the morality of man, only from which the ambitions flow.

[Moonreaper666]

I think the intention of that statement was that the Pantheon cares not for the morality of man, only from which the ambitions flow.

And how special you are. Think of being a Chaos Champion like being on a Talent Show on steroids, LSD and PCP

 

What can you do that other Chaos Champions can't do? Why should the Dark Gods give you more favor over others?

[Typhoid_Tony]

I actually like the way Ahriman was portrayed in Atlas Infernal and I believe that it can coexist with the personality developed by John French in the Ahriman Omnibus. 

 

I think the sophistication was there, but more importantly the calm intelligence and unstoppable willpower.

 

Again, John French said specifically in an interview that Ahriman is evil. So I guess we go with that lol

 

It's worth bearing in mind that Atlas Infernal is set many years after the Ahriman trilogy. It's what happens when obsession to 'save' his brothers is extended over so much time. Whether he likes it or not the Ahriman trilogy clearly shows he's a pawn of Tzeentch, his hope and desperation makes him do anything to anyone to achieve his goal: just what Tzeentch loves! If you get in his way you would absolutely think he was evil.

 

I'm not sure that Magnus knowing the whole truth from the Emperor would have helped. He had already met, and made a deal with, Tzeentch to save the Thousand Sons from the flesh change and assumed he was the master of that deal (not knowing what Tzeentch was). His downfall was his complete and total arrogance and being told about cosmic powers he shouldn't look at would just have made him look more, assuming he would control them.

 

As for the Word Bearers depiction I think it depends on what source you read. The Anthony Reynolds trilogy was a bit one dimensional but ADB really fleshed them out in the Horus Heresy, especially with Argel Tal. 

 

For all of this though I tend to avoid the GW psychic awakening and similar campaign books as they don't really provide enough depth about any character (or legion) to get an insight into their personality and drives.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Typhoid_Tony

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I think the measure of good and evil lies in what they would do to persue their goal.

 

As an astartes you are effectively immortal so you have time to watch and wait.

 

So consider the following scenario.

 

You learn of a spell book you need/want.

Its in an imperial city.

Retrieving it will cause large amounts of innocent casualties?

 

Do you proceed based on these are unenlightened humans/ enemies regardless of them not being military / or mortals so not worth my regard.....

[Charybdis]

Considering how grim dark 40k lore is the term 'evil' is fairly relative.

 

But that's what makes the Sons such a fantastic legion. They're the only traitor legion that didn't want or choose their fate, they where loyal, right up to the point until the Imperium (from their perspective) repaid the sacrifices the legion made by literally dropping from the sky and tearing their world apart.

 

Once Istvaan III was out of the way every legion and its members chose to rebel. The Son's had their future imposed on them by the Space Dogs (how the hell did these lads not end up launched into the traitor bin after Prospero?!) and now the Imperium has to deal with the consequences of having a highly trained legion of Astartes psykers with a massive and fairly legitimate grudge against them.

 

And even then, the Son's vendetta seem's mainly against the Imperium rather than against mankind itself. Despite running on chaos juice for 10 thousand years (which tends to influence a chaps behaviour towards the excessive.) they still believe that what they do will liberate mankind by allowing them to reach a new evolutionary peak. 

Their methods definitely eschew to the dark side of the force, but spend all that time in the warp and even the most scholarly of gentlemen will find their perception of 'right' and 'wrong' becoming a little hazy. 

 

There's a scene in the novel 'Thousand Son's' where they force a psyker to use her gifts to help them avert the Horus Heresy, even though it will kill her. I think it was mean't to show the inhuman side of the Son's. 

But from their perspective any one of them would give up their lives for the good of the Imperium, which they proved through 100's of years crusading, so to them sacrifice for the greater good (apologies for going all Tau) is demanded of all. 

 

 

[Charybdis]

This a perfect example of what the Son's are.  Maybe they're good, maybe they're bad, but what they are without doubt is pure class. 

 

https://youtu.be/tjbDETADF9Y

 

The actual short story begins with the Son's searching Istvaan III, it's been cut from this segment to focus on Fulgrim and Rylanor. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s interesting to note that Ahriman and his dead twin brother were named after two ancient gods... the former being evil and the latter good.

[Moonreaper666]

Magnus has done things to aid the Loyalist during the Heresy which has severe consenquences:

 

-Magnus goaded Artellus Numeon into sacrificing himself to bring back Vulkan from his permanent death. Without Vulkan, the Beast Orks would have destroyed the Imperium and killed the Emperor. Chaos and Beast Orks slaughter each other by the Trillions

 

-An AL Marine that goes by the name of 'Alpharius' spared Nykona Sharrowkyn at the behest of Magnus

 

Thousand Sons intervene to save the Shattered Legions and the Primaris data they got from Luna. Without Primaris, Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade would have complete destroyed the Imperium