The Lost Legions? (yet again)

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi there. I know this must have been the most discussed, if not the most tired, lore topic ever since that list first appeared with two names redacted (probably following the old "create depth by omitting rather than by overexplaining" school of worldbuilding, although it was also the famous "we did it so fans could create their own legions").

 

But I'm still curious, especially after all the HH novels. Because it's very obvious that back when the Horus Heresy was a mythological echo, the missing legions were just another mystery. Now, they're a VERY GLARING problem. It's even fun to see good Black Library writers try and tiptoe around the issue, and since it's likely GW doesn't know what's their real fate and every single one of them probably has his own version of what happens, the famous Lexicanum list of painstakingly archived references is, to be generous, inconsistent at best.

 

But such are also historical sources, and being a student of history, I'm drawn to the conflicting sources and apparent mystery. As opposed to real history, though, we can be 99% sure that nothing is behind the references and tangential mentions. But we still can have fun. 

 

What is the most basic information that we now have, after a decade of Horus Heresy novels? What can we say with certainty about the Second and the Eleventh?

 

1- They were wiped out, if not completely, partially.

 

2- Apparently their Primarchs were the problem.

 

3- Whatever they did, it was so huge, so monumentally monstrous, criminal or glaring, that the Emperor ordered them killed or forgotten, and their records expunged utterly and completely. Horus rebelled and we still know about him. Lorgar fell to Chaos and his book is still studied as the basis of Imperial religion. Magnus used friggin sorcery and the Emperor sent the Wolved, but did the memory of the Thousand Sons did not perish.

 

4- Whatever happened, it happened between the beginning and the end of the Crusade.

 

5- The Wolves were involved in their demise.

 

6- Their Primarchs must not have been close to Horus or the Lion or any of the most popular brothers, because killing (maybe) Primarchs and destroying the memory of two full Legions IS A BIG DEAL. Which tells me they weren't necessarily killed, but we'll get there.

 

The theories are many, but the fact that Primarchs who would soon fight amongst them to the death based sometimes on mere ego contests and misunderstandings were afraid of even referencing the Second and the Eleventh speaks volumes about the degree to which a) the writers know nothing about what happened to them, and if we want to be guillible, then b ) the lengths to which the Emperor went to make both these primarchs an example.

 

I'm making this thread because I'd like to pick your brains on this matter, and many people accept now that the two Legions were not "destroyed", even if they were disbanded. ADB did say that the connection between the swelling of the Ultramarines' numbers and the disappearance of the 2nd an the 11th was a coincidence, but there it is now, for the historical record.

 

My own theory on what happened to the Primarchs is that one of them was a strong psyker and the other one dabbled in genetic manipulation, and that they were very close. One of the two legions suffered from a serious genetic flaw which its primarch tried to solve by dabbling in Fabius Bile-like experiments, maybe with the help of his other lost brother.  The experiments go bad, half the legion goes Wulfen (but worse, maybe even daemonic possession) and the 2nd and the 11th have to put down their own brothers. Guilliman and Dorn, who are described as being one of the few to know of what transpired, discover what's going on and ponder if they should tell the Emperor. First they confront the two lost Primarchs and, in the most Primarch of fashions, come to blows. Legion on Legion. Blue and Yellow go tell the Emperor and he and Malcador decide they need to set an example. An early example. Don't touch the Warp, don't pollute my genetic handiwork, don't raise weapon against brother with ill intent.

 

It's not a strong theory, but it's a start. I'm very curious to see what you have come up with. It could be that the real story was nothing like we expect (if we ever get it, but I'm confident GW will visit at least one of the two, it's good marketing), or it could be that my theory is too blanc and they did much worse. To me, one of the best endings for Psychic Awakening would be the return of one of these Lost Legions. GW would blow my mind. And Guilliman's too. AND this would justify an Astartes vs Astartes conflict again. A man can dream.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Cèsar de Quart

[Beren]

Something of the nature of the second Primarch to be lost can be determined from those who confronted Malcador about the erasure of his name. One was Horus, the other two were Jagathai and Alpharius. Both of the latter were outsiders, Alpharius in particular having few friends other than perhaps Horus, which implies the lost Primarch was something of an outsider also. It could also be inferred that they'd reacted strongly to one Primarch having their name erased but not the other, implying that the responsibility or fault in one instance was greater than the other.

 

It is also possible that the proper purging of records on the Thousand Sons could not occur due to the outbreak of the Heresy relatively soon afterwards, which rendered any further attempts at censorship of that scale moot.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Beren

[Brother Cambrius]

Ahh the lost Legion. Always a wonderful source of discussion here.

 

So first off, this was a really well set out post, so kudos on that. :tu: A few things of note to pick over with you and continue the discussion:

 

I recall seeing something here on the forum a long, long time ago after The First Heretic was released, AD-B said here that he regretted making that throwaway line about the Ultramarines' apparent swelling of numbers after the loss of the II and XI. The intention was apparently just to be rumouring amongst the Astartes themselves as even they had no idea what happened. But I think at this point it's become established in the mental canon of us all that it may be linked. I can see it happen myself, if elements within the II and XI proved themselves to be loyal beyond their Primarch.

 

In terms of warp mutation, that actually was a major issue with the Thousand Sons and why Magnus made his pact with T'zeentch loooong before Horus began overseeing the Heresy. The origin of their name stems from the Thousand Sons that survived. So it stands to reason that the mutation may not have been the full by all and end all of the Legions' erasure as Magnus' boys lived, unless it was rampant and beyond saving. But then that would point to all the Astartes of that erased Legion being wiped out, as they are beyond saving and the Ultras' numbers would not have swelled.

 

Now genetic alteration, that I could definitely see as being a reason, whether physical or possibly mental, leading to increased psyker risk and thus possession or just going plain mad and beyond reproach, even further past the World Eaters' Nails.

 

As you mentioned. Dorn and Guilliman knew what had happened, and likely Russ as they were the executioners. I recall Dorn wistfully wishing they existed whilst conversing with Malcador prior to the Assault on Terra as the base of the missing statue of the IInd Primarch. Guilliman and Dorn would ceertainly be the kind to try and bring their wayward siblings back into the fold, and would also be the first to report to papa Emperor if they were beyond the line of saving from their transgressions.

 

As an aside, a part of me wonders whether machinery used in the Dark Age of Technology may have been responsible for the Legions' erasure. Possibly genetic enhancing as mentioned earlier, or melding with machines or AI beyond the Mechanicus' approvals.

 

Cambrius

[gripschi]

Didnt Malcador heavy Point Out, that IT would be even under siege better, Not to have them around.

 

And that they got erricated not for nothing.

 

Also i Recall that Sanginius, feared due the Problems inside His Legion, He could Share that Destiny.

 

For me it implies, at least one of them, had even worser Gene defects then the Blood Angles.